The Core set is a tiny little fraction of the whole game...

Um, it's actually a whole game. Many people buy the core set and enjoy gaming with it and never buy a single expansion.

I have most of the LCGs core sets but only one (LotR) that I have everything for.

I sometimes wonder if it wasn't so expensive (multiple core sets) to really get into deck building right from the start if maybe more casual players would start buying more of the expansions?

Yes, you can play it on its own of course and there is nothing "missing" by doing so. I am not trying to claim otherwise.

What I'm saying is that the cards in the Core represent only a small portion of the set of cards that will eventually exist. The game is going to grow over time, that's what an LCG does. Whether or not any particular player decides to continue collecting doesn't mean that more cards don't/won't exist.

What I was referring to was that some people try to judge the game on day 1 based on seeing only a small fraction of the cards that will eventually exist and I feel that this is short-sighted. Personally, I prefer to see a full year's worth of additional releases before I can get a good sense of how the game is shaping up.

What I was referring to was that some people try to judge the game on day 1 based on seeing only a small fraction of the cards that will eventually exist and I feel that this is short-sighted. Personally, I prefer to see a full year's worth of additional releases before I can get a good sense of how the game is shaping up.

I don't agree. If a game isn't fun for whatever reason based on the core set, that core set has failed. It can be corrected with expansions, but a significant number of players aren't going to wait around.

It's the same issue with TV shows. When someone argues, "It gets good after the pilot!" (which is often true, admittedly) "Or stick around for season 2, it makes everything better in hindsight -- it was all part of a plan!" That doesn't make the experience of watching the first episode, or first season, any better, and it doesn't excuse shoddy work.

By the same token, I expect the core game to be an enjoyable gameplay experience. If it isn't, I won't stick around. There's a small chance I'll try it again down the road if people that I trust tell me some expansion improves gameplay, but don't count on it. Assuming people will wait around for things to get good just leads to bad core products (and bad tv pilots), and likely, lost sales on expansions (and additional core boxes).

All that being said, I like what we've seen of the core box and gameplay so far.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I said nothing about the Core set being good or bad or needing fixing. Yes, if it's a bad game then it's a bad game and probably nothing in future releases will fix that. No argument there, that's not at all what I'm talking about.

But with the Core set (even multiple copies) we're also not seeing real constructed decks yet for any faction. We're not seeing fully fleshed out themes. We're not seeing what other themes a faction will have. It's just a tiny taste of the game to come.

If you still don't believe there's a difference try taking any LCG with a large card pool like Thrones or Cthulhu and compare the feel of decks you can make with the full card pool vs. the feel of the Core set decks. It's not just a question of power levels, you've also lost the ability to do different themes, to concentrate on certain mechanics, to find just the right cards that fit together well in some new and interesting way.

None of this has anything to do with whether the Core set or the game mechanics are good or not, a game with a very small pool is just going to have a less developed feel than one with a larger pool.

I agree 100% with dboeren.

"Android: Netrunner" has seven factions; three runners and four corps. You could build a complete deck right out the box, and even do some deckbuilding. I trust "Warhammer 40,000: Conquest" will allow for head to head play with just the core set. FFG has not mentioned neutral cards (yet), but they could reasonably exist.

I would gladly pay double for a core set with a full playset (i.e. whatever the max number of copies you can include in a deck is) of every card, but I just know that would be asking too much. There's too much money to be made selling multiple core sets. I haven't bought a second core set for "A Game of Thrones", "The Lord of the Rings" or "Android: Netrunner", and I won't do it for "Warhammer 40,000: Conquest" either. I won't support that sort of marketing. I like the LCG model except the core sets. At least release a core set expansion, with one or two additional copies of cards that are included as singles or doubles in the base core set.

You do realize (hopefully) that the LCG model of maketing is a HUGE improvement on the way these games have historically been marketed right? The way I look at it is if it had been marketed traditionally I would be paying at least FIVE times as much and still not being able to buy the whole game! Even if you really enjoy deckbuilding and want the extra cards lets say you do buy three core sets to get the whole game, you have still paid less that you would for even ONE box of a TCG, while getting a lot more for your investment.

Seriously does NO ONE appreciate the risk that was involved in FFG coming up with this model? Every company said it would fail! They said you couldn't cut out the after market, they said you couldn't release small regular expansions and maintain interest, they named 100 reasons LCGs would fail!

However I'm willing to bet that not one of the objections was: "It's too expensive and you don't give the players enough."

When did gamers become a collective of whiners who have no gratitude whatever?

There is nothing to say you won't be able to build faction pure using just the core set in multiple copies.

Yeah I would be okay but you're paying money for all the extra tokens, planet cards, warlords and their cards, and token cards that you don't need any more. But even with this I would still consider buying multiple core sets as long as their was only one copy of each of the remaining cards. I don't want to buy a core set multiple times and get less and less cards I can use with each purchase. I really can't stand how FFG packages their customizable games and if they have 1 copy of some cards, 2 of some, and 3 of others I will refuse to buy the game.

Does any one know how the cards were distributed in Netrunner? this being their newest LCG will give me an idea, maybe, of how they will package this one. Just want to know so I don't get my hopes too high.

In the NetRunner core there were 7 factions and you got three of every card including faction cards. You could build pure faction decks right from the box. This has remained the model in every expansion since then so that if you have only ONE copy of each, you still have 3 of every Netrunner card making all legal deck builds possible by buying only one of each release.

For the record though? I find you (like most) to be a whiner with no sense of gratitude and absolutely (apparently) NO IDEA of what the TCG industry or hobby has been like or what FFG has done to change that.

I wish I could sentance all you ingrates to two years of playing Magic... Especially since when you were finally done everything that you had just bought would be worthless!! God just imagine your impotent bitching then!!

Netrunner was a mix of 3x, 2x, and 1x cards in the core. Bet on this being the same.

Waitaminute, what? What cards have only 1 or 2 copies? That sure hasn't been the case with ANY of the expansions but the core was so long ago that you could be right and after buying 3 copies of the core (I like to make multiple decks and unlike others I appreciate LCGs and WANT to support the marketing model, so sue me.) I may have forgotten. However EVERY expansion has had 3 copies of every card including the big ones. That's why I have enough copies of Chaos Theory to use for bookmarks! (which is pretty cool all on it's own actually.....)

If you don't like the concept of a card game that is gradually added to over time then all I can really say is that LCGs aren't your bag, or at least new ones aren't.

You may be right there. I do prefer games that offer a complete highly competitive experience right from the start and aren't expanded that often. But I do like asymmetrical card games a lot and I used to play a lot of 40k so this one did catch my eye and will probably just watch as things develop and see if it is for me. I still can't stand how FFG packages things though. 2 of everything while better then 1, 2, or 3 copies of things is still not ideal and would rather have a core set that included 3 of every card for $50 or $60.

If you don't like the concept of a card game that is gradually added to over time then all I can really say is that LCGs aren't your bag, or at least new ones aren't.

You may be right there. I do prefer games that offer a complete highly competitive experience right from the start and aren't expanded that often. But I do like asymmetrical card games a lot and I used to play a lot of 40k so this one did catch my eye and will probably just watch as things develop and see if it is for me. I still can't stand how FFG packages things though. 2 of everything while better then 1, 2, or 3 copies of things is still not ideal and would rather have a core set that included 3 of every card for $50 or $60.

Cool then go get NetRunner because Conquest is NOT Asymetrical, both sides play quite the same and just imagine my shock at your whining about the price. Please see above post as it applies to you as well.

Wow, you really don't like MTG! Fair enough, it's not for everyone. I agree with you about competitive MTG; it's freaking expensive to keep up with, so that's why I only play it casually now (pretty much only Commander/EDH).

However, wanting it to die is perhaps a bit short-sighted. For many people (myself included) it's been a gateway into other games. Your comment about talking to store owners is an apt one; they need MTG to keep in business, and as long as they are in business they will keep running events & clubs, etc, in their area. These events and clubs are where you can show people other games (which the store will more than likely stock, so at least the owners won't be pissed at you for trying to lure their customers away).

I've been looking for an LCG to get into, and I love the 40k universe, so this game has got me really excited. If it turns out to be good (and from the brief snippet we've seen so far, and the fact that FFG rarely produce crap, it should be) I'll demo it to all my MTG friends and try to get them interested in it. In fact, because of the fact that it's 40k, I might even be able to get my wargaming friends into it. Fun times!

It's a good thing you used that word "perhaps"..... Look, I have a lot of RESPECT for Magic, but no love. It's daddy, I get that. Without it I never would have been able to play NetRunner, Jyhad, or VS. Yet it does need to die. If you ever want to know why people still play such an inferior game ask to see their Magic collection. If you're lucky they won't lead you to an entirely different part of the freakin' house! Most regular Magic supporters still play for that reason. Level of current investment. If Magic died then other games could get the chance they deserve and well, honestly a lot of people would save a lot of money. Sometimes people will refuse to give up what they've got even for something clearly better simply because they already have a lot of it.

Our store does not need Magic to survive. It's not the best seller, it doesn't even sell well enough to support singles anymore. Magic DOES need to die, or at least it's TCG model does, and LCGs are a genius step in that direction. Nothing makes me smile more than to hear the guys at our game store steer someone away from Magic by explaining the difference in how Magic and LCGs are sold.

Consumers DO vote with their dollar and gamers are (surprisingly slowly for gamers) doing the math and figuring it out.

while the pricing of MTG is a ******* joke.. and a bad one at that. The game itself is still, even after the introduction of mythics and hexproof and the changes to how combat damage stacks and all that.. it is still a good game. The only thing that is really wrong with it is the pricing structure. It is easy to teach, fast to play and has neat effects on the cards.. there is a reason everyone loves it and it is NOT because they do not know alternatives. It is because new players try it and enjoy it. It is the simple.

While I gave up all TCG games long, long ago to this day I still buy the occasional duel deck pack for MTG. These are much like LCGs as you know what is in them and for a few bucks you get 2 decks that can play off each other nicely for dueling @ 120 cards. After a few years I have about 8 (of 12) of these decks now and can even start deck building inside the pool I own. There is no need to spend a fortune on Magic if you do not want to. In fact have fun coffee table games of mtg and it costs LESS than a LCG...

LCGs might tell you what is in the packs but they are designed to force yo to buy ALL of them. Most LCG players own entire collection or aim to own entire collections. There is a reason FFG uses so many factions.. and it is not to make the game cool.. it is so each individual pack only has 1 or 2 cards in it for the faction you are trying to build a deck for. So to get any increase in your pool you need to buy entire cycles.. and even then your only looking at maybe 18 cards or so per faction. Any new player looking to net deck or reading articles will so see that cards in the good decks are drawn from the entire pool and they need to buy 100s of dollars to make even a simple deck.

You do not need to buy hundreds of dollars worth of NetRunner cards to build a simple deck. In fact for the price of one of the big expansions you get two pre-built decks. From just one core you can build more than just one simple deck so what the hell are you talking about?? You are seriously willing to say the the Mtg marketing method is BETTER?? I've encountered a great deal of ingratitude here, true, but thus far not much ignorance. Until now. That is if your post is saying what I think it's saying, admittedly there's a lot of guesswork becuase I would have to visit grade schools to find worse sentance structure and inability to just state simple ideas. You should maybe work on that more than your gaming eh? Seriously the last time I "heard" a gamer so inarticulate and muddled was when I lost a bet and had to play call of Duty on XBOX Live!

Hey maybe you should give it a shot!

Also you're not forced to buy anything it's a choice. Don't like it, don't buy it, simple.

I really don't know why you are spamming the boards or replying to messages nearly here months old but please take it down a bit. There's no need to be rude.

I really don't know why you are spamming the boards or replying to messages nearly here months old but please take it down a bit. There's no need to be rude.

+1

That is if your post is saying what I think it's saying, admittedly there's a lot of guesswork becuase I would have to visit grade schools to find worse sentance structure and inability to just state simple ideas.

Maybe you should work on your grammar then as well.

Be nice!

I know of only 3 business models for card games

boxed game - where a play-set of every card is included in the box

pros

no need for multiple purchases

no element of pay to win

cons

no expansions meaning the game doesn't change

if game isn't well balanced someone might break the game (your not playing a game your following a decision tree)

LCG - base game usually missing cards but expansions have full play-sets

pros

ever changing game

know exactly what you get in each expansion

balance problems can be fixed in later expansions

cons

slight pay to win element but unless you are missing a key counter (daus ex vs jinteki kill) you should be fine

TCG

pros

collecting/trading cards can be fun by itself

some excitement in opening packs

cons

the best decks are very expensive to create unless you get very lucky (pay to win)

card you spent a lot of money on can stop being legal in competitive play

I like the LCG format as it allows a game to evolve without the expense of a TCG my only complaint is the lack of play-sets in the core set or a core booster that contains the missing cards

At least we are going to have a full set of 3x planets, warlords and signature squads, 72 useless cards. I can not wait to make three different Cato Sicarius decks at the same time!

At least we are going to have a full set of 3x planets, warlords and signature squads, 72 useless cards. I can not wait to make three different Cato Sicarius decks at the same time!

I think there will be 146 useless cards- 20 planets and two full sets of Warlords: 9 card * 7 factions * 2 core sets. It gives 146 useless cards.

Yep you are right, those were the useless card count per extra core set.

from Edge Entertainment, the europe editor for FFG :

Contenu :
7 cartes seigneur de guerre, 129 cartes unité, 40 cartes d’événement, 25 cartes de soutien, 21 cartes d’attachement, 10 cartes planète, 2 cartes de référence, 40 cartes jeton, 2 cadrans de commandement, 30 jetons de dégâts, 30 jetons de ressource, 1 jeton d’initiative, 1 jeton de première planète, 1 Guide d’apprentissage, 1 Livret de référence.

So for those of you who don't speak french (even if it must be pretty obvious) :

7 Warlord cards, 129 unit cards, 40 event cards, 25 support cards, 21 attachment cards, 10 planet cards, 2 reference cards (?), 40 token cards, 2 servo skull command dials, 30 damage tokens, 30 resource tokens, 1 initiative token, 1 first planet token, 1 learning guide (i guess just a few "quick start" pages), 1 "reference book" (i assume rules book)

so we have 215 total cards split between 7 faction + neutral, so we can guess ~29 cards per faction + ~12 neutral cards.

So we can now clearly guess that starter decks will be either 40 cards deck with all cards from one faction + neutrals, or 50 cards deck with all cards from one faction and all non loyal cards from one of its ally faction (and neutrals again)

edit :

based on the two faction preview we got so far, we can see a patern :

4 different signature squad cards, 8 total.

19 different non signature cards, roughly 21 total. (wich probably mean only 2 card *2)

so my new guess is : each card (except signature squad) *2 max in a deck (else we'll have to buy 3 CS, and nope, do not want ! )

edit 2:

also forgot that coreset are for 2 players, so there must be 2* of 6 neutral cards, wich mean 35 cards mono faction deck. seems to match with some previous LCG CS

I suposse that this game will be as others in the same line: The core set will have a "mini" deck for 4 factions and a bit of cards for the rest. In a future expansion (like "edge of darkness" or "assault on ulthuan") the others factions will be completed.
As we know better the imperium, marines, orks and chaos, than the other three, I think that they won't appear in the core but for 4 or 5 cards each

this is just an opinion

Netrunner had playable decks for the 7 factions, there is no reason for this to be different.

i seriously doubt the 4 faction theory for many reason :

1st : we've seen a good amount of different cards from each faction, and their card number match the 23/faction card count.

2nd : if there was only 4 faction, the ally wheel would be totally screwed.