I can't tell you, but from what has been released they will be good second line ships. They are not x-wings. They are not B-Wings. They are cheap missile carriers that will excel at what they do.

ETA: FWIW, I will be picking up two Z-95's for my purposes and plan to fly them with B-Wings and A-Wings. This is coming from a person that plays in a lot of tournaments, wins a fair amount of them, and my staple is a 4 X-Wing list. I am very excited about these ships.

Even if you take them as a filler unit, the Tie still outperforms the Z-95.

I'm not sure that's true. I think the Z-95 will offer more to a rebel list as filler then a Tie Fighter will.

Consider the following list I just threw together.

100 points

Bandit Squadron Pilot, Concussion Missiles

Bandit Squadron Pilot, Homing Missiles

Rookie Pilot

Rookie Pilot

Blue Squadron Pilot, Advanced Sensors

Those 2 Z-95's will do more for that list, then 3 Tie Fighters would do for an Imperial list, and cost 3 points less. I could of gone with cheaper ord, but even ion pulse weapons don't leave enough left over to really do anything else with. Other then R2's on the X-Wing. So I went with Conc and Homing to round it out to 100 points.

Another option would be a XXXZZZ list, 3 rookies and 3 Bandits with no upgrades come to 100 points. That could be a fairly effective swarmy type list.

But where you are wrong is that we should not ask questions about a rebel swarm. The Tie Swarm has always been one of the best lists out there and its only legitimate to ask about the rebel counterpart. Just a natural thing to do.

I didn't say we shouldn't talk about a Rebel swarm; I said that asking whether a swarm of Z-95s will be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm is the wrong question. The reason it's the wrong question is that the Howlrunner swarm is a really powerful list, and if the Z-95 were designed in such a way that you could buy 8 of them and instantly be a top-tier competitive player, we would all be screaming about power creep and pay-to-win--and we'd be perfectly justified in doing so.

I also find it rather funny that people write that the role of the ship is different from a tie and that would justify it being less cost efficient.

There are apparently formulas used by FFGs design team to create ships that players have retroengineered as good as they could. If they use such formulas to give the same weight in stats to ships, then how the hell can anyone talk about "ship roles". Because if they balance the game by formulas, then they don't consider ship roles pretty clearly to do so!

To me, either it is a good fighter and deserves its point cost or not. The game design is not that subtle that you can use ships other than to fight the enemy. And if you do its most of the time a very mediocre list. For example you want to take Jan Ors? Okay but then give him a turret so he stands a fighting chance at least.

This goes so far that sheer support ships rarely find a place in tournament lists. Biggs and Howl being the exception, but they also fly passable fighters that stand a chance in a slugging match.

A Z-95 does not have the Tie Fighter's endurance. Evade once with the Tie and you have as many HP as a Z-95. The superior agility does the rest. The firepower with TL and 2 dice is not that substantially better than with focus. The Tie will probably also be more maneuvrable too and has barrel roll. That's plain better than the Bandit Squadron pilot…

I think saying the Tie swarm is not that good because you depend on dice i think you can say that about every ship in the game, be it offensive or defensive dice. It is still a safer bet than most other lists.

But you're also wrong on the facts, here. To heighten the comparison between ships with lots of hit points and ships with lots of Agility, look at a list with 7 TIE Fighters against the "Rebel Convoy" list with 2x Outer Rim Smugglers and 2x Gold Squadron Pilots. The TIEs have 21 hit points and 3 Agility each; the Rebels have 36 hit points and 1 Agility each. Clearly the Rebels don't depend on their defense dice very much at all, because they can't.

To put it another way, the difference between the average defense roll and the minimum defense roll for this particular Rebel list is very small (0.375)--while the same difference between an average roll and a bad roll for the TIE swarm is exactly three times as much (1.125). The Rebel list is accordingly much more reliable on defense, because it doesn't really care what it rolls, while the Imperial list has to hope that it rolls average or better every time.

And the same principle comes into play when comparing 2 Agility/2 Hull/2 Shields to 3 Agility/3 Hull/0 Shields. The TIE Fighter might survive multiple attacks without taking a hit, and it's much less likely that the Z-95 can do the same--but the Z-95 can survive more hits than the TIE Fighter. And I'm not just guessing here; you can use expected damage from multiple attacks to figure out how many hits it takes to kill each ship, and they're about even.

Just to emphasize that: the Z-95 is not mathematically inferior to the TIE Fighter. It may be better or worse in the hands of a particular player, of course, and in the absence of a Howlrunner-like support ship I don't think we'll see a lot of competitive lists with 6-7 Z-95s. But I think it will stand on its own as a good way to strap some cheap bulk and extra guns on to a Rebel list, and I think it's going to make a definite impression on the Wave 4metagame.

Vorpal, nice write up. How do you do the multi quotes like that?

And what do you guys think about a defensive HR ability? "When another friendly ship within range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 agility die" Or if you want to nerf it a bit more "it may reroll 1 blank agility die"

Currently the only way to reroll agility dice is when Ibby is stressed. This would provide a new way to do that, and as others have said before, this game focuses on offense, so it wouldn't be as powerful as Howl, while still providing a similar type of action. Without a focus, the distribution of evades with 2 dice is as follows:

0: 39%

1: 37%

2: 14%

Average evade of .65 evades

With this Howlrunner-esque ability (version 1) it increases to:

0: 24%

1: 53%

2: 23%

Average evade of .99 evades

It would also be a counter to the TIE swarm in the meta and promote quality over quantity since the more ships shooting at the swarm, the more powerful the ability is.

Vorpal, nice write up. How do you do the multi quotes like that?

You can copy and paste the entire quote and snip and edit what you want in each section.

And what do you guys think about a defensive HR ability? "When another friendly ship within range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 agility die" Or if you want to nerf it a bit more "it may reroll 1 blank agility die"

Currently the only way to reroll agility dice is when Ibby is stressed. This would provide a new way to do that, and as others have said before, this game focuses on offense, so it wouldn't be as powerful as Howl, while still providing a similar type of action. Without a focus, the distribution of evades with 2 dice is as follows:

0: 39%

1: 37%

2: 14%

Average evade of .65 evades

With this Howlrunner-esque ability (version 1) it increases to:

0: 24%

1: 53%

2: 23%

Average evade of .99 evades

It would also be a counter to the TIE swarm in the meta and promote quality over quantity since the more ships shooting at the swarm, the more powerful the ability is.

I didn't say we shouldn't talk about a Rebel swarm; I said that asking whether a swarm of Z-95s will be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm is the wrong question. The reason it's the wrong question is that the Howlrunner swarm is a really powerful list, and if the Z-95 were designed in such a way that you could buy 8 of them and instantly be a top-tier competitive player, we would all be screaming about power creep and pay-to-win--and we'd be perfectly justified in doing so.

Why would that be power creep? We already have a Howlrunner and i can't imagine why a Rebel swarm would be worse than that! It would be power creep if the Z-95 Swarm were even more powerful than a Howlrunner swarm. Sure i would Buy 7 or 8 and play them happily. Nothing wrong with that!

It's not less cost-efficient.

I disagree for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

Wave 3 wrecked all of those regression formulas pretty badly, actually, and the base stat lines for Wave 4 don't look very good either.

Jan Ors is a woman.

Well i lack the data to say you are not right about the formulas, i just know they existed. Also i knew Jan and Howl are women, just a typo.

Looking just at the top 16 in the current Vassal tournament, you can see Lando, Dutch, and Jonus, all of which are arguably support ships. I've also seen Roark lists do very well, and personally I like Jan quite a bit.

There you misunderstood me. I like all of those ships, but a naked Jan Ors (and yes, by that i mean without a turret!) can't pull her own weight. Just takes too many points and makes target priority too easy for the enemy. Kill the 2-3 other ships around it asap, win! I will go that far to say that i have not seen a lot of lists with HWK without them running any turret, that are for sheer support purposes, and when i have seen them they always lost terribly.

What i tried to say with the Jan ors example is that every ship needs to be a credible threat to the enemy, because if you have one ship you can just plain ignore, you will get focused down too easily. Every ship needs to be able to put up a minimum of fight in this game. If it offers support, even better.

I don't say the Z-95 is comparable in that regard to a HWK with only 1 attack though. But i meant that a support ship that only supports is until now a bad idea and has always been. (I guess we will see if the unarmed Medium Transport will change that)

I don't play on Vassal, and i don't know the standings, but i follow other tournament results and lists regularly.

I disagree. The Z-95 doesn't have the TIE Fighter's Agility, but it has more hit points (and it has shields). That gives the two ships about the same average/expected lifespan, even before accounting for the fact that the Z-95 can resist critical hits. The Z-95 can't use the evade action, but most players don't evade very often anyway; the loss of barrel roll hurts it a lot more, frankly, but gaining TL absolutely does make a difference.

That's where i think you are plain wrong, no offense.

Evade is really key. Evade is actually a full hitpoint per turn that you can trade for offense whenever you like or need it. Granted you trade it for an important action, but you can repeat it as often as you want. An evading Tie has 4 Hitpoints, like the Z-95. And as long as you keep the Tie alive, it can rinse and repeat that. Defensive focus also gets equally better with more agility if you decide against evading. That's why you give a stealth device to Soontir Fel and not a Shield upgrade. (At least i don't know anyone yet doing that, but soon he will be able to take both XD)

This stacking of defense dice gets of course better the less attack dice you throw at it. You certainly know that.

On another side you are right about playerstaking focus actions on Ties because it's the ambivalent choice. But with howlrunner you can actually permit yourself to evade sometimes and still do damage. That's one of the things that make her so strong. Without her you are still not at a disadvantage. You hit less, but your damage will probably stick more.

I would do exactly that when facing 2 attack ships like the Z-95. Their chances to damage you are abysimal. even if they hit 2 every time (not taking into account range 1 shots or range 3 shots there), you a have pretty big chance to roll that 1 evade you need on the first hit. If focus fired upon after that, even then you last longer than a Z-95. Shields are of course nice, but i really don't think they make up for evade actions. And after all The Z-95 has already traded its Shield for an agility, the evade action is just the icing on the cake for the Tie.

In an attrition war, even without Howlrunner on the table i am pretty sure The Z-95 will lose against Tie Fighters if both are played to perfection.

I think you've misunderstood me. TIE swarms featuring Howlrunner are certainly very effective; I was pointing out that there have been good reasons not to run the TIE swarm, and therefore good competitive lists that aren't a TIE swarm, for the game's entire lifespan.

But you're also wrong on the facts, here. To heighten the comparison between ships with lots of hit points and ships with lots of Agility, look at a list with 7 TIE Fighters against the "Rebel Convoy" list with 2x Outer Rim Smugglers and 2x Gold Squadron Pilots. The TIEs have 21 hit points and 3 Agility each; the Rebels have 36 hit points and 1 Agility each. Clearly the Rebels don't depend on their defense dice very much at all, because they can't.

To put it another way, the difference between the average defense roll and the minimum defense roll for this particular Rebel list is very small (0.375)--while the same difference between an average roll and a bad roll for the TIE swarm is exactly three times as much (1.125). The Rebel list is accordingly much more reliable on defense, because it doesn't really care what it rolls, while the Imperial list has to hope that it rolls average or better every time.

And the same principle comes into play when comparing 2 Agility/2 Hull/2 Shields to 3 Agility/3 Hull/0 Shields. The TIE Fighter might survive multiple attacks without taking a hit, and it's much less likely that the Z-95 can do the same--but the Z-95 can survive more hits than the TIE Fighter. And I'm not just guessing here; you can use expected damage from multiple attacks to figure out how many hits it takes to kill each ship, and they're about even.

Just to emphasize that: the Z-95 is not mathematically inferior to the TIE Fighter. It may be better or worse in the hands of a particular player, of course, and in the absence of a Howlrunner-like support ship I don't think we'll see a lot of competitive lists with 6-7 Z-95s. But I think it will stand on its own as a good way to strap some cheap bulk and extra guns on to a Rebel list, and I think it's going to make a definite impression on the Wave 4metagame.

Yes, and again you misunderstood me too. The Tie Fighter list depends on its defense rolls, yes. The convoy list or other low agility lists don't rely as much on their defense rolls, I agree. But then, they rely on their attack rolls. It's a luck based game, and we know that attack is superior to defense in it. But stacking one stat is a good thing for a ship is the other thing we know for sure because it helps getting more of the results you need. The Tie stacks Agility while the Z-95 stacks nothing really!

Also the Convoy is rather an exception to the rule, because it tries to do as much damage through defense lasers (if you actually meant that variation of the list) than with actual attack dice. I love that list because it is exactly the one that does care about dice and more about skill than many others.

The Z-95 is not mathematically inferior to the tie Fighter, but has the points it has, that undoubtedly add up to the same total, in much less favorable places. So you are not guessing? I would like to see the math done then, and i might believe it.

And what do you guys think about a defensive HR ability? "When another friendly ship within range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 agility die" Or if you want to nerf it a bit more "it may reroll 1 blank agility die"

That's actually something i would like very much. I had thought about exactly something like that when i mentioned that they might need to add an AoE effect.

For the Z-95 with its TL option this might be what it needs to actually be able to use it for a bit better offense, instead of being compelled to focus for ambivalence.

Also it would be on one level with Howlrunners ability because you could do that for every attack you suffer because of the wording "is defending" and there is no "once per turn". It would be a little weaker in another spot to compensate for this because rerolling an attack die is better than a defense die.

The Z-95 is not mathematically inferior to the tie Fighter, but has the points it has, that undoubtedly add up to the same total, in much less favorable places. So you are not guessing? I would like to see the math done then, and i might believe it.

Okay, hold on to something.

First, suppose the TIE Fighter and Headhunter have no tokens to spend on their defense, and neither does their attacker. (Everything here is happening at Range 2.) A ship with 2 Attack and no Focus or Target Lock will do an average of 0.51 damage to the Z-95 and 0.35 damage to the TIE Fighter. Accordingly, it takes 4/0.51 = 7.8 attacks to kill the Z-95 and 3/0.35 = 8.6 to kill the TIE Fighter. So the TIE Fighter lives, on average, through about one more attack. Similarly, a ship with 3 Attack will do 0.90 and 0.67 damage respectively, meaning it takes 4.4 attacks to kill the Z-95 and 4.5 to kill the TIE Fighter--close enough that we can call them identical.

If the attacker has focus and the defenders don't, 2 Attack kills the Z-95 in 4.7 shots, and the TIE Fighter in 4.9; 3 Attack kills in 2.6 and 2.5. Again, too close to call.

So, if we assume the Z-95 and TIE Fighter are blocked or want to spend tokens on offense, then the TIE Fighter and Z-95 take the same number of rounds to kill--unless your attacker only has ships with 2 Attack, and for some reason can't or doesn't want to spend an action to improve his or her attacks.

***

It's a bit harder to determine the effect of focus, but not impossible. For a Z-95, you get eyes on only 44% of your rolls, but on average spending Focus adds an average of 1.14 evade results. For a TIE Fighter, you roll at least one eye 58% of the time, and when you spend your token you add an average of 1.30. So let's assume that both fighters live long enough to spend their focus token on defense, and add the token's value to their hit points--so a Z-95 with a focus token effectively has 5.14 hp, and the TIE Fighter has 4.3.

Now things look a little bit better for the TIE Fighter. Attackers with 2 Attack and no tokens kill a Z-95 in 10.1 attacks and a TIE in 12.3 attacks. If the same group of attackers spends their tokens, the Z-95 dies after 6.0 attacks and the TIE Fighter dies after 7.0 attacks. WIth 3 Attack and no tokens, it's 5.7 vs 6.4, and with 3 Attack and focus or target lock, it's 3.4 vs 3.5.

***

I want to stress that this comparison is making a lot of assumptions and has a lot of holes. In fact it's sort of back-of-the-envelope in nature, but it's the best I can do without investing a lot of time in building a simulation. Hopefully the math is at least somewhat clear.

Anyway, what this comparison tells me is that the TIE Fighter will often survive about one more attack than the Z-95 would--although generally the difference disappears as the attacks get better. That small advantage is somewhat counterbalanced by the higher PS of the Z-95 and the fact that it can sometimes shrug off critical hits (particularly the dreaded Direct Hit).

As I noted upthread, evade isn't really relevant--the Z-95 might actually like evade if it had the action available, but the TIE Fighter is generally better off using focus for defense. Barrel roll is relevant, since it could mean that the TIE Fighter is able to get out of a firing arc, but that's really hard to judge quantitatively. And of course Target Lock isn't included, either, for the same reason, but I'll say again that it's easy to underestimate how effective it can be to have a token that persists until it's used rather than until the end of the round.

***

So the very bottom line is that the TIE Fighter has a small and inconsistent advantage in durability, which is offset by weaker pilot skill and resistance to critical hits. I can't say what the Z-95 dial looks like, of course, but unless it's noticeably weaker than an X-wing I don't think that will make much of a difference here.

Or, in other words--the Z-95 is not mathematically (i.e., statistically) worse than the TIE Fighter.

Well thanks a lot for enlightening me.

Well it shows it is not a lot worse, but still worse than a Tie. As you say if it's a 3 attack ship then the difference is a bit smaller. But needing to pour in 2 more shots, as it would be in a direct matchup, is actually not exactly what i would call unimportant, or an equal starting ground.

It's Interesting that you should keep Ties in close combat with headhunters because your disadvantage against 3 attack dice is not as big as against 2. That's at least something i can learn from this. Keep em close so you have 3 Attacks yourself!

Now after the maths, add in the lack of barrel roll, and don't let me start again with Howlrunner (i know this was about naked ships with no support, but she exists there is nothing we can do about it XD)

I still don't agree on Evade and TL with you. Normally Focus is the better option in any case, that's true, but evade, especially against 2 attack dice ships it makes a huge difference. I think that you overestimate TL on a 2 attack ship (well except for shooting missiles of course) and underestimate Evade. Especially at the end of games if it was a rather equal matched one, the importance of evade gets bigger and bigger. If an enemy can't focus fire you properly anymore because he has lost ships and can't get more than one ship or perhaps two get shots at you, evade can make you all but impervious to fire. In such situations if i can't dodge arcs completely with Barrel Roll, i gladly sacrifice some offense for assured survival.

I totally agree that shields are an advantage though, but the Z-95 still risks getting oneshot if you take 2 hits and a crit, just like a Tie (and that's not even taking 4 attack dice shots into account). Because unlike an X-Wing it has 2 instead of 3 Hull.

Well i think when it comes out i will try a Z-95 missile list, unless we would get a nice swarm buff anyway. Penguin has made a nice one there, and i think it might actually not exclusively work against swarms as i first thought. At least it will be short games. Either you annihilate them, or you fail at missiles and die horribly, and fast!

I think what we'll be referring to the Z-95 as a gambler craft, simply because of the question of whether or not it can make it's missile actually work for it. If it happens to manage out significant damage onto an enemy with it's missle then it was worth it, and if it doesn't it'll have to contend within the list with it's completely average and cheaply bought base stats. At that point it will be completely left up to the movement of the player using it, since in the end, this is a game about outthinking your opponent and getting in some lucky shots. If and when TIEs get hit by crits and 3 damage is where they falter, and I think that the slightly better PS for the Bandit will probably make people rethink TIE lists. After all, they can't shoot back if they're dead, so perhaps we'll actually see the use of Obsidian Squadron Pilots to negate the slight PS advantage of the Bandit. It comes down to how well you can deny the actions of the enemy craft. Of course you can outfly an opponent with more board control and deny them actions with lots of craft: that's what TIE/Ln's are good for. They aren't good for one on one engagement or lasting a long time individually. They aren't intended for that purpose.

The Z-95 is going to be good at carrying missiles and hopefully killing something off or crippling it badly enough that it will make the opponent shat themselves after only 2 turns. But both are entirely luck based craft that can be flown with skill but are still secondary to their more reliable but expensive peers for different reasons.

I do think introducing a super cheap, PS2 ship was a good idea. It's going to do interesting things to the meta, I think. Ties are just SO effective, but having another (even slightly weaker) similarly priced ship with higher PS will at the very least introduce some new, interesting decisions into the game.

Filler or swarm, it doesn't matter. It's another nice choice and a sharp looking model. It is a welcome addition no matter how you look at it.

A couple observations about the complaints/concerns in summary.

1. I think the standard is too high. It sounds like the current concern is that a Z-95 swarm won't be an instant tourney favorite and that it won't be without a Howlrunner type buff. Very few lists are instant favorites in Xwing and I peronally prefer it that way.

2. The complaints tend to focus on the defense of the z-95 while ignoring offensive capabilities, especially with respect to comparison with a tie swarm. I could see z-95s being THE alpha strike list, with the ability to take four or even five ships with missile capability, and they would likely rip apart a tie swarm in particular with such a build.

3. It's too early to decide anything. A lot is unknown. Even if the Z-95 doesn't get a Howlrunner type buff, there may be some other cool pilot abilities or cards that make them great ships to fly.

4. Regarding the concern that the rebels should have a swarm. I actually prefer the notion that the two factions have a different feel in terms of squad construction. For that reason, I hope the Z-95 is ideally used an excellent ship to bulk numbers,

I strongly disagree with your point 1. That's an odd logic to me.

By the "standard is too high", you mean Tie Fighters (and possibly other ships) are too good, and obviously so? Well okay even if i agreed to that, you imply that Z-95 should not be obviously good? I have to disagree with that!

Game designers should be fair. Even they can't foresee every list that can be made with the added options we have now. But they should do their best to balance this game, and if a Tie Fighter is obviously strong, a Headhunter should not be made a less powerful choice willingly for the same point cost.

And honestly, if they give 2 very elite ships to the Empire with wave 4, they can give a swarm to the Rebels as well. Because list building will "feel" different for both factions anyway.

Maybe a buff that gives the Z-95 a defense ability, similar to Howlrunner's ability but instead of modifying the attack dice, it modifies the defense dice?(since at that time the Imperials lack offense while the Republic lack defense)

Like "when another friendly ship at Range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 defense dice"? making it uniquely Republic while giving a buff like bonus for the swarm... ... ...?

Maybe a buff that gives the Z-95 a defense ability, similar to Howlrunner's ability but instead of modifying the attack dice, it modifies the defense dice?(since at that time the Imperials lack offense while the Republic lack defense)

Like "when another friendly ship at Range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 defense dice"? making it uniquely Republic while giving a buff like bonus for the swarm... ... ...?

This ability has been already proposed in this thread by Khyros, and i would find it absolutely great! A good match for Howlrunners ability on rebel side, not too powerful in comparison, and also useful for other Rebel ships, especially A-Wings and the new E-Wing

I also think that Z-95 swarms are not going to match TIE Swarms.

Looking at it on paper here I don't think trading in one agility and rebalancing the hit points is going to be worth it. Z-95s are not going to have enough firepower to cut through TIE Fighter agility, and those Z-95s are only going to evade about as much as X-Wings do but with the life expectancy of an A-Wing.

Moreover, the Z-95s can't be used as action blockers since TIE Swarms are going to be flying first.

It seems pretty clear to me that Z-95s are going to be used as padding. Where you might take a high-rank falcon, a couple of X-Wings, and slush points for upgrades now you can take the Falcon and 3-4 Z-95s to use as filler and more shooting dice thrown at the enemy. And now you can also use Z-95s as cheap missile busses and free up the A-Wings to do something more useful?

The Z-95 does make Rebel swarming options available now, but they don't outclass the Imperial swarm builds. Just like the Imperial heavy fighters won't be as efficient as rebel fighter lists, I think.

I don't think building a swarm ever plays to the Rebel ships' strengths. Not saying you can't, but this is not the natural build of a Rebel fleet. The Empire has created their fleet with the motto "strength in numbers" while the Rebels are more synergistic. This shouldn't be shocking as the good guys, in the Star Wars movies, always appear to embrace the harmonistic elements of the Jedi culture.

I strongly disagree with your point 1. That's an odd logic to me.

By the "standard is too high", you mean Tie Fighters (and possibly other ships) are too good, and obviously so? Well okay even if i agreed to that, you imply that Z-95 should not be obviously good? I have to disagree with that!

Game designers should be fair. Even they can't foresee every list that can be made with the added options we have now. But they should do their best to balance this game, and if a Tie Fighter is obviously strong, a Headhunter should not be made a less powerful choice willingly for the same point cost.

And honestly, if they give 2 very elite ships to the Empire with wave 4, they can give a swarm to the Rebels as well. Because list building will "feel" different for both factions anyway.

I think it's interesting that you use the term balance and points to what just may be a different philosophy that you have than others, or that you just really, really, want the rebel swarm to be an elite list in and of itself. Both are valid perspectives, just not ones that I agree with.

You're right that "high" was a poor choice of words when describing the standard in #1. I probably should have used the word "narrow" instead of "high."

For me, it's actually incredibly poor game design to create a ship and base design decisions on whether it is not only competitive but comparable to a single opposing list. If that list is actually broken or undercosted (as your comments about the TIE and Howl indicate you think it is) I think it's especially poor design and balance to create a ship on the opposing side that matches that. Just because something is broken (and by the way, I'm not saying it is) doesn't mean you create something on the opposition that is also broken.

Game design requires a far more holistic approach than that. Take a look at GW games for what happens to the game when that is ignored. The game designers have long ago backed off on the idea that the rules there are important and repeatedly say it's a hobby and beer and pretzels game.

By the way, they ARE giving a swarm to the rebels, it just might not be the best way to fly rebels in a competitive setting. That is different than it being competitive, just like three thirty point fighters might not bet the best way to fly the Imperials.

There's a lot of room between "Swarmy Death" and "Old Junk."

I also think that Z-95 swarms are not going to match TIE Swarms.

Moreover, the Z-95s can't be used as action blockers since TIE Swarms are going to be flying first.

While I agree with much of your post, I think that it will be a huge counter to TIE swarms, even if it might not be as solid of a list overall, but that is different that saying it won't be competitive at all. You can take something like 6-7 rebel ships with 4 carrying missiles that would likely tear apart a swarm in a face-up match up, or fewer ships with more carrying missiles.

The point about blocking only applies to one list, opposing academy-based swarms, a list I've suggested above that you don't actually need to If you design your list to give it a chance at initiative (less than 100 points), you'll be able to block most opposing ships and lists and at worst, you'll have a 50% chance at it.

Maybe a buff that gives the Z-95 a defense ability, similar to Howlrunner's ability but instead of modifying the attack dice, it modifies the defense dice?(since at that time the Imperials lack offense while the Republic lack defense)

Like "when another friendly ship at Range 1 is defending, it may reroll 1 defense dice"? making it uniquely Republic while giving a buff like bonus for the swarm... ... ...?

This ability has been already proposed in this thread by Khyros, and i would find it absolutely great! A good match for Howlrunners ability on rebel side, not too powerful in comparison, and also useful for other Rebel ships, especially A-Wings and the new E-Wing

Thank you for reminding me, looks like I have skipped a few pages.

I think that you see this entirely right Norsehound.

Then the focus of the debate has to be if it would be a good thing to have a rebel swarm or if the Z-95 is fine as just a cheap missile ship and as a filler unit inferior to Tie filler ships.

My opinion is that FFG should make it a playable and compitive option. I know some of you disagree, but that's okay. The reason for me is mainly is that i have had a lot of success with Imperial swarms, but also like playing Rebels a lot. On top of that i like the look and the Story of the Z-95.

Also as i already said. Imperial swarms are still a part of the tournament scene. Why we should we not see a competitive Rebel counterpart then? I think that would hurt nobody and diversity of lists is a good thing.

Why we should we not see a competitive Rebel counterpart then? I think that would hurt nobody and diversity of lists is a good thing.

Because for some people the loss of factional identity is a bad thing. If the difference between the Imperials and Rebels in terms of game play is lessened or goes away completely this can hurt the game.

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a valid opinion.

Just because the Z-95 doesn't work well as a 6+ ship swarm doesn't mean they don't have a place in the meta or even in tournaments.

Besides is 6 ships any less of a swarm then 7? Exactly how many ships do you need to make a swarm?

I strongly disagree with your point 1. That's an odd logic to me.

By the "standard is too high", you mean Tie Fighters (and possibly other ships) are too good, and obviously so? Well okay even if i agreed to that, you imply that Z-95 should not be obviously good? I have to disagree with that!

Game designers should be fair. Even they can't foresee every list that can be made with the added options we have now. But they should do their best to balance this game, and if a Tie Fighter is obviously strong, a Headhunter should not be made a less powerful choice willingly for the same point cost.

And honestly, if they give 2 very elite ships to the Empire with wave 4, they can give a swarm to the Rebels as well. Because list building will "feel" different for both factions anyway.

I think it's interesting that you use the term balance and points to what just may be a different philosophy that you have than others, or that you just really, really, want the rebel swarm to be an elite list in and of itself. Both are valid perspectives, just not ones that I agree with.

You're right that "high" was a poor choice of words when describing the standard in #1. I probably should have used the word "narrow" instead of "high."

For me, it's actually incredibly poor game design to create a ship and base design decisions on whether it is not only competitive but comparable to a single opposing list. If that list is actually broken or undercosted (as your comments about the TIE and Howl indicate you think it is) I think it's especially poor design and balance to create a ship on the opposing side that matches that. Just because something is broken (and by the way, I'm not saying it is) doesn't mean you create something on the opposition that is also broken.

Game design requires a far more holistic approach than that. Take a look at GW games for what happens to the game when that is ignored. The game designers have long ago backed off on the idea that the rules there are important and repeatedly say it's a hobby and beer and pretzels game.

By the way, they ARE giving a swarm to the rebels, it just might not be the best way to fly rebels in a competitive setting. That is different than it being competitive, just like three thirty point fighters might not bet the best way to fly the Imperials.

You are also right about the fact i think that as well the Tie Fighter as well as Howlrunner in combination were broken. Even the second best list (4 X-Wings) was hardly able to handle it. In wave 1, arguably stretching out to wave 2 that was. It's kind of better now for the Rebels. There are really good and competitive Rebel lists that stand a good chance against Howl and her minions.

What really infuriated me in Wave 1 and after was that they took that long to actually balance the game. The Swarm, to me, was a really bad piece of game design. How could something like that slip through game testing (if there was any). As you say they may not have designed the game with competitive play in mind. But well we all know that ended. There is now a huge tournament scene around X-Wing. It is a fun game, but even in fun and friendly games, balance is required.

I have seen some tournaments in where the first 4-6 places were swarms in the beginning. Even though there were a lot of modified victories, and it was hard to play, the list was very dominant. How could that happen?

After that, they took that long to balance it out because they were careful not to create another monster list if you ask me. Because FFG noticed in the end what had happened. Which is not even something one can blame them for... It was the caution they should have applied before releasing wave 1! Because in X-Wing you can't just "nerf" a unit that is too strong. It's there to stay.

But what is my real problem, and there you misunderstood me completely, was not that i wish less diversity or have a narrow understanding of a competitive list. While we have some rebel lists by now that actually can compete, do you see anything imperial that can? 3 Bounty hunters, or 2 plus Howl are not bad, but still there is until now not much diversity in imperial lists. There are most imperial ships, and some rebel ones that stay on the shelf. Look at worlds. Top 8 lists. 1 Falcon, 2 Y-Wings, 3 Bombers in 8 lists. The whole rest Ties, X-Wings and B-Wings en masse. That means 3 ship types dominated worlds. I don't want to say those guys were not great players too, but still.

All this goes back to wave 1 when with one mistake, balancing went pretty much out the window for 3 waves of releases. They were afraid to release broken stuff again.

And now i think they are afraid to give the Rebels a swarm on one level with Howlrunner. Well okay i understand that, but now it would make no difference. Swarms are beatable by quite some lists finally. So why not.

And the argument that rebels should run more elite lists than imperials is absolutely futile!!

They will get the most elite ships possible. How does THAT bode with "factional identity"?? And i have no problems with that even if they turned out to be the new meta! So why say it's okay imps get 3 or 2-ship super elite lists but rebels can't get a swarm, because... err... Yeah good question. Why actually not?

So, the Firespray didn't make Top 8, so it is no longer a competitive ship?

I remember when Assault Missiles where first previewed. Wasn't there a lot of people declaring the swarm is dead?

There is nothing wrong with Rebels getting a swarm. What is the issue is if that swarm plays exactly like the TIE swarm. We still have an incomplete picture of how the Z-95 will play (2 unique pilots and no dial, though it is reasonable to guess it will be similar to the X-wing).

So, the Firespray didn't make Top 8, so it is no longer a competitive ship?

I remember when Assault Missiles where first previewed. Wasn't there a lot of people declaring the swarm is dead?

There is nothing wrong with Rebels getting a swarm. What is the issue is if that swarm plays exactly like the TIE swarm. We still have an incomplete picture of how the Z-95 will play (2 unique pilots and no dial, though it is reasonable to guess it will be similar to the X-wing).

I was never in the camp saying assault missiles would fix the swarm. They were too costly and unreliable to cause the 1 damage they needed to trigger the effect. Also there was back then a lack of reliable missile ships except A-Wings. The other missile ships were too expensive for that. Certainly an interesting role for the Z-95 in the future.

I don't say a Rebel swarm should play exactly like an imperial swarm. But it should be able to fight it on equal terms. And maybe it requires a swarm buff for that. The defensive reroll aoe would actually be nice that some guys mentioned earlier.

You are of course absolutely right about the incomplete information we have. Just speculating here.