I'm interested in the unique pilot abilities. Those ships are still cheap, and there could be someone like backstabber or dark curse that provides a good value for the low cost.

If the design of the Z95 is to support a Rebel swarm, I expect at the very least that some of the named Z95 pilot cards will have some area buff effect. But we haven't seen all the Z95 cards yet.

This, the only thing that is holding Tie swarm strong on the board is Howlrunner. (I'd rather face 8 ties over 7 including howl anyday)

If the rebels do not get a character that kinda does the same thing then the Z95 are just not a swarm unit. I think it is just as simple as that.

I do think that with the Z95 the standard for amount of ships in a rebel force will creep to 5 on average. (currently 4 seems the standard)

The new ewing elite pilot...gives an extra die for all those shooting same direction??

This, the only thing that is holding Tie swarm strong on the board is Howlrunner. (I'd rather face 8 ties over 7 including howl anyday)

I disagree, Howlrunner is a great asset however leave her out and you still win. I usually run Dark Curse and 7 academy TIE in tournaments and I have placed #1 two-thirds of the time. Never missed the old gal.

I'm looking forward to running 8 headhunters, special pilot or not.

Interesting take that the rebels don't have swarm support. I assume this is because they don't have Howl? Meanwhile they do have pilots that can move around focus tokens and target locks, along with Biggs. Both sides have some pilots and effects that can help out their fellow squadmates. It's just that Howl's ability is sooo good and the more ships the better, it makes her the perfect swarm "buff," and no one has another ship that does that.

And yes, Howlrunner is the ship holding an imperial swarm together for multiple reasons. If it wasn't for her, the damage output would be too low, and because she is there, Ties can also evade or hold on to their focus, and still hit most of their shots. So by boosting offemse she allows the Ties to stay defensive.

Now if they intend on making a rebel swarm viable, which i don't know, they would need to give one of the pilots an AoE boost of some sort as well, and good one!

Anyone think we might get Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot?

Somehow I don't really think the point of the Z-95 was to even make swarms for the Rebellion. Of course it's an option but whether or not it is a good idea is entirely up for debate. Personally, I think that trading out what advantages the TIE/Ln has over the Headhunter does still make them good for the same cost. To be honest, I think that people have the correct idea in saying that they'll make a good list filler, or a missile platform, or support to large fleets which will be a thing for Epic Play and I know it before I even know the rules.

To be honest, I think fitting in a Headhunter with minor upgrades is going to be a thing. For example, throw on a low end missile and Shield Upgrade or Engine Upgrade and suddenly a mediocre ship isn't looking so bad any more. And it's only 20 points! It's like adding new shock absorbers and tires to an ugly but reliable minivan: it won't turn it into a Ferrari, but it will make a huge impact on it's performance and won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Somehow I don't really think the point of the Z-95 was to even make swarms for the Rebellion. Of course it's an option but whether or not it is a good idea is entirely up for debate. Personally, I think that trading out what advantages the TIE/Ln has over the Headhunter does still make them good for the same cost. To be honest, I think that people have the correct idea in saying that they'll make a good list filler, or a missile platform, or support to large fleets which will be a thing for Epic Play and I know it before I even know the rules.

To be honest, I think fitting in a Headhunter with minor upgrades is going to be a thing. For example, throw on a low end missile and Shield Upgrade or Engine Upgrade and suddenly a mediocre ship isn't looking so bad any more. And it's only 20 points! It's like adding new shock absorbers and tires to an ugly but reliable minivan: it won't turn it into a Ferrari, but it will make a huge impact on it's performance and won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Yeah i certainly don't disagree on the points you make, but the conclusion i draw from this is that we would not get a real rebel swarm and we would not get a ship that has any advantage 1v1 compared to a Tie Fighter. Well if that is the case in the end, i gotta say in a point based system i can't be happy with such a decision on FFGs side. Because then they could have made the Tie Fighter cost more or the Z-95 less. If a ship is plain better, balance it via the points.

So i really hope there are some options for the ship that make the whole better than the sum of its parts! Just like Howl for the Tie!

Sry for double posting, but the editing system just screwed up and added another post!

So i might as well use it...

Anyone think we might get Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot?

And her Jedi senses could certainly offer the swarm buff we would need! Speculations please XD

Anyone think we might get Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot?

I sure hope so! What else would she be included with?

I was thinking she'd be on the Rebel side, but that's a good point - in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand comic series, she flew the Headhunter as an Imperial assassin.

I'd imagine she'd get some kind of agilty boost? Or possibly something to do with knowledge of ship weaknesses, similar to Maarek Steele's ability?

If the design of the Z95 is to support a Rebel swarm, I expect at the very least that some of the named Z95 pilot cards will have some area buff effect. But we haven't seen all the Z95 cards yet.

This, the only thing that is holding Tie swarm strong on the board is Howlrunner. (I'd rather face 8 ties over 7 including howl anyday)

If the rebels do not get a character that kinda does the same thing then the Z95 are just not a swarm unit. I think it is just as simple as that.

I do think that with the Z95 the standard for amount of ships in a rebel force will creep to 5 on average. (currently 4 seems the standard)

The new ewing elite pilot...gives an extra die for all those shooting same direction??

No, it gives any ship firing at a target in his arc the ability to switch a hit to a critical. It doesn't make you more likely to hit but it makes a hit you get more punishing if it is not evaded.

Anyone think we might get Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot?

I sure hope so! What else would she be included with?

I feel like she would be a Skipray pilot, but out of the ships that are in the game or currently coming the Z95 is the best option.

Interesting take that the rebels don't have swarm support. I assume this is because they don't have Howl? Meanwhile they do have pilots that can move around focus tokens and target locks, along with Biggs. Both sides have some pilots and effects that can help out their fellow squadmates. It's just that Howl's ability is sooo good and the more ships the better, it makes her the perfect swarm "buff," and no one has another ship that does that.

Biggs does not help a swarm. You can take more than 2 Z-95 for one Biggs, and it is a bad idea to make people shoot Biggs in this scenario, since he has the most firepower in the squad, so you don't want to lose him but rather a Z-95. And as i said, passing Focus or TL to a Z-95 is just not necessary. You'd be better off giving a 3 attack dice ship a focus. So no Rebels don't combo with swarms.

And yes, Howlrunner is the ship holding an imperial swarm together for multiple reasons. If it wasn't for her, the damage output would be too low, and because she is there, Ties can also evade or hold on to their focus, and still hit most of their shots. So by boosting offemse she allows the Ties to stay defensive.

Now if they intend on making a rebel swarm viable, which i don't know, they would need to give one of the pilots an AoE boost of some sort as well, and good one!

You're not getting my point, which is that there's really only one pilot in the game who's ability gets better the more ships you have and that's Howl. You're pointing out better uses for those abilities, and I don't completely disagree, but that doesn't mean those abilities are useless with a swarm.

You really think adding target locks to cheap missile ships is a bad idea?

Biggs actually adds an interesting defensive option to a swarm. No, you don't want him to go down, but making him the worst available shot (range 3 and/or behind asteroids) and maybe giving him R2-D2 forces your opponent to spread fire, which should be his real purpose. It would keep more of your ships alive longer and prevent focus fire that is death for a lot of ships, but especially ships like the Z-95. Beyond that, if the Z-95 does get some kind of AOE pilot, he'll be really valuable in keeping that particular pilot alive.

I just think the existence of Howl skews the perspective on what a swarm ability should be and puts other pilots' abilities to shame, but I don't think the means the rebels will absolutely need an equivalent.

As i said i don't fear this either, i was just concerned about the Z-95 being competitive against its direct imperial counterpart, the Tie Fighter.

I would not worry about this. They will be competitive.

Somehow I don't really think the point of the Z-95 was to even make swarms for the Rebellion. Of course it's an option but whether or not it is a good idea is entirely up for debate. Personally, I think that trading out what advantages the TIE/Ln has over the Headhunter does still make them good for the same cost. To be honest, I think that people have the correct idea in saying that they'll make a good list filler, or a missile platform, or support to large fleets which will be a thing for Epic Play and I know it before I even know the rules.

To be honest, I think fitting in a Headhunter with minor upgrades is going to be a thing. For example, throw on a low end missile and Shield Upgrade or Engine Upgrade and suddenly a mediocre ship isn't looking so bad any more. And it's only 20 points! It's like adding new shock absorbers and tires to an ugly but reliable minivan: it won't turn it into a Ferrari, but it will make a huge impact on it's performance and won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Yeah i certainly don't disagree on the points you make, but the conclusion i draw from this is that we would not get a real rebel swarm and we would not get a ship that has any advantage 1v1 compared to a Tie Fighter. Well if that is the case in the end, i gotta say in a point based system i can't be happy with such a decision on FFGs side. Because then they could have made the Tie Fighter cost more or the Z-95 less. If a ship is plain better, balance it via the points.

So i really hope there are some options for the ship that make the whole better than the sum of its parts! Just like Howl for the Tie!

The issue here is it isn't "plain better", it is better at different things. An academy tie pilot will most likely destroy an unmodified gold squadron pilot with it's higher maneuverability and ease of avoiding shots, doe that make the 18 point y-wing worse than the tie fighter in all cases? Not at all, the y-wing, even lacking turrets or torpedoes, can form a sturdy center around which other rebel pilots can pivot and flank, it has a role that it is best in and that role is not the same as a tie fighters, the Z95 is also not meant to be a direct mirror for the tie fighter even if their point costs are the same.

Tie's are meant to form the core of any list they appear in, Headhunters are meant to support the core. Not in the obvious way the HWK is a support but simply by adding in some fire and more warm bodies, token denial (via making them spend them or jumping on ships that already have), giving A-wings some breathing room, standard blocking shenanigans.

Interesting take that the rebels don't have swarm support. I assume this is because they don't have Howl? Meanwhile they do have pilots that can move around focus tokens and target locks, along with Biggs. Both sides have some pilots and effects that can help out their fellow squadmates. It's just that Howl's ability is sooo good and the more ships the better, it makes her the perfect swarm "buff," and no one has another ship that does that.

Biggs does not help a swarm. You can take more than 2 Z-95 for one Biggs, and it is a bad idea to make people shoot Biggs in this scenario, since he has the most firepower in the squad, so you don't want to lose him but rather a Z-95. And as i said, passing Focus or TL to a Z-95 is just not necessary. You'd be better off giving a 3 attack dice ship a focus. So no Rebels don't combo with swarms.

And yes, Howlrunner is the ship holding an imperial swarm together for multiple reasons. If it wasn't for her, the damage output would be too low, and because she is there, Ties can also evade or hold on to their focus, and still hit most of their shots. So by boosting offemse she allows the Ties to stay defensive.

Now if they intend on making a rebel swarm viable, which i don't know, they would need to give one of the pilots an AoE boost of some sort as well, and good one!

You're not getting my point, which is that there's really only one pilot in the game who's ability gets better the more ships you have and that's Howl. You're pointing out better uses for those abilities, and I don't completely disagree, but that doesn't mean those abilities are useless with a swarm.

You really think adding target locks to cheap missile ships is a bad idea?

Biggs actually adds an interesting defensive option to a swarm. No, you don't want him to go down, but making him the worst available shot (range 3 and/or behind asteroids) and maybe giving him R2-D2 forces your opponent to spread fire, which should be his real purpose. It would keep more of your ships alive longer and prevent focus fire that is death for a lot of ships, but especially ships like the Z-95. Beyond that, if the Z-95 does get some kind of AOE pilot, he'll be really valuable in keeping that particular pilot alive.

I just think the existence of Howl skews the perspective on what a swarm ability should be and puts other pilots' abilities to shame, but I don't think the means the rebels will absolutely need an equivalent.

Well we can call it what we want, but a bubble effect or an effect affecting multiple ships by some other means is pretty much the only thing that can make a swarm of Headhunters viable.

This is even more true for Headhunters because on their own they are weaker than a Tie Fighter.

And if that's the thing making a swarm competitive, why not give something like it to the rebels as well.

I tell you something else, if they don't give the rebels an affordable swarm boost option it might be because they think that Howlrunner paired with the cheap Academy Pilot is perhaps too strong?

Of course giving out focuses or TLs is not completely useless on a Z-95. But taking Dutch, Garven or Kyle affects 1 Headhunter per turn, and requires some actions to achieve anything. All that for a cost that prevents you from taking a real swarm.

I would never take Garven or Jan Ors to boost a 2 attack ship if there are better choices. I'd rather take soneone like Wedge, or even a Rookie pilot because for those units the damage potential is made much higher than for a Z-95.

I'm curious why everyone assumes that because you can run the Z-95 as a swarm ship, that it can or should be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm. The thing that makes the TIE swarm really dangerous in the hands of a typical player is Howlrunner, not the TIE Fighter--and I actually see her as a balance problem, rather than as an example to emulated on the Rebel side.

I think where we'll typically see the Z-95 will be in the same sort of role where you find TIE Fighters in non-Howlrunner lists: as a way to usefully fill out 35-50 points in a list that doesn't have a compelling reason to take something else. We'll continue to see a lot of 3-ship lists with Falcons, and we'll still see a lot of lists with 4 fighters, but now we'll also see the occasional 5-ship list (that is, 5-ship lists that aren't Imperial Methadone), and even the occasional competitive 6-ship list.

For instance, 3x Rookie/3x Bandit is a pretty compelling defensive setup, with enough guns to meaningfully challenge a TIE swarm, and low enough PS to do swarm-style blocking against Firespray lists or 4+ Rebel lists. And it's a list that's made possible by Headhunters, but also doesn't require spending $90-$120 on them...

EDIT: Oh, and as far as how well a Z-95 compares to a TIE Fighter one-on-one, I think it'll depend on action usage and flying skill. Target lock can be a big deal if you use it well, and so can evade and barrel roll, and the contest will go to the person who makes more effective use of his or her ship's palette of actions.

Aah now finally we come to the core of the problem! Is Howlrunner the problem? Is she too good in combination with the cheap academy pilot? In the Wave 1 days when i brought that up, everybody would say no. I was at first a bit undecided wether i found swarms too good or not. But pretty soon i found out that in wave 1 the swarm was the alpha and the omega of lists pretty much. Not invincible, but the most efficient list there was.

After that, Rebels got some more means to hold their own. Not only new ships, but also new options. I think it's only the B-Wing though that really was able to break the swarm's predominance. Other imperial ships fared a bit worse since they still untill this day can't keep ip with the rough efficiency of swarms.

If you ask me, why are a lot of people unhappy with interceptors, Advanceds, Bombers? Very simple. The simple cheap Tie Fighter, and especially with Howlrunner is just about always the better and safer bet.

We could now of course argue that this seems correct fluff-wise because Tie Fighters are the Backbone of the Imperial Navy, and i would certainly agree. But it's sad for the other beautiful imperial ships FFG brought out.

And actually this is exactly why i fear they will never issue any other pilot enabling a swarm, even on rebel side to get that dominant. They needed 2 more waves to correct that little mistake. And the swarm is still one of the best lists you can play, make no mistake!

But i think that they are reluctant to make the Z-95 as powerful as a Tie Fighter because of this. And even more reluctant to give them any sort of swarm buff.

I mean it's okay that they don't want to repeat their mistake even if i would like to play a real Rebel swarm that would have a chance against an imperial counterpart. But if that would not be possible because they will not give us the appropriate tools to do so. But it would for me be admitting their balancing/costing mistake of first wave

5 z95s with assault missiles+ 1 z95 with ion pulse. I think that would play merry hell with a tie swarm. And would fulfil the standard 6+ definition most people use for swarms.

I wouldn't play it but I hate single ship type builds as a matter of principle.

5 z95s with assault missiles+ 1 z95 with ion pulse. I think that would play merry hell with a tie swarm. And would fulfil the standard 6+ definition most people use for swarms.

I wouldn't play it but I hate single ship type builds as a matter of principle.

No doubt about it, but you would never bring that to a tournament because it would probably suck against most other lists that are not swarms. An imperial swarm is competitive against pretty much any list you can bring up.

Aah now finally we come to the core of the problem! Is Howlrunner the problem? Is she too good in combination with the cheap academy pilot? In the Wave 1 days when i brought that up, everybody would say no. I was at first a bit undecided wether i found swarms too good or not. But pretty soon i found out that in wave 1 the swarm was the alpha and the omega of lists pretty much. Not invincible, but the most efficient list there was.

The point I was trying to make by bringing her up is that comparing anything to a swarm list with Howlrunner is a mistake, because I doubt FFG is going to publish another pilot like her. The general trend of the thread (with notable exceptions) seemed to be "Will a Z-95 swarm be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm?" And I think that's the wrong question to ask.

...I think it's only the B-Wing though that really was able to break the swarm's predominance. Other imperial ships fared a bit worse since they still untill this day can't keep ip with the rough efficiency of swarms.

(1) You live and die by your green dice; a cold streak will take you out of the game. Due to their higher hit points and lesser reliance on Agility, most Rebel ships aren't subject to that effect (at least not to the same degree).

(2) If you're flying a swarm, another swarm is one of your worst matchups. So the more swarms there are in a particular tournament, the worse the average matchup gets for each swarm--and the better the matchup is for any list/player combination that can reliably take on a swarm.

If you ask me, why are a lot of people unhappy with interceptors, Advanceds, Bombers? Very simple.

But i think that they are reluctant to make the Z-95 as powerful as a Tie Fighter because of this. And even more reluctant to give them any sort of swarm buff.

If you define a "real swarm" as "a bunch of cheap ships plus Howlrunner", then no, we'll probably never get a Rebel equivalent. But you seem to be conflating the effectiveness of the TIE Fighter with the effectiveness of Howlrunner's buff, and I'm not sure that's really justified. There are people who fly 8 TIE Fighters and win; there are people who fly 5-6 ships with 3-4 TIE Fighters and win; there are lots of ways to use TIE Fighters effectively that have nothing to do with Howlrunner. So if your definition can be just a little broader, then you'll see lots of Rebel "swarms" with 6-7 ships that will do just fine.

Why won't we have another pilot like Howlrunner? Because she is just way too good for her cost! That's exactly the point and if you doubt that they will bring something like her again i think you are right! But where you are wrong is that we should not ask questions about a rebel swarm. The Tie Swarm has always been one of the best lists out there and its only legitimate to ask about the rebel counterpart. Just a natural thing to do.

I also find it rather funny that people write that the role of the ship is different from a tie and that would justify it being less cost efficient. Yes, maybe, but is it right to just make it less effective for the same points then? I doubt that. There are apparently formulas used by FFGs design team to create ships that players have retroengineered as good as they could. If they use such formulas to give the same weight in stats to ships, then how the hell can anyone talk about "ship roles". Because if they balance the game by formulas, then they don't consider ship roles pretty clearly to do so!

To me, either it is a good fighter and deserves its point cost or not. The game design is not that subtle that you can use ships other than to fight the enemy. And if you do its most of the time a very mediocre list. For example you want to take Jan Ors? Okay but then give him a turret so he stands a fighting chance at least.

This goes so far that sheer support ships rarely find a place in tournament lists. Biggs and Howl being the exception, but they also fly passable fighters that stand a chance in a slugging match.

Bare stats and their combination with good abilities, that's what counts in competitive play. That's why you see the most tournament lists taking as many Rookies, Daggers and Tie Fighters as possible!

And the Z-95 might fall a little short in that regards especially compared to those ships!

Same point cost, same chances in combat! And that's not what i beleve will be the case for the Headhunter

Even if we substract Howlrunner from the equation. A Z-95 does not have the Tie Fighter's endurance. Evade once with the Tie and you have as many HP as a Z-95. The superior agility does the rest. The firepower with TL and 2 dice is not that substantially better than with focus. The Tie will probably also be more maneuvrable too and has barrel roll. That's plain better than the Bandit Squadron pilot.

Let them fire at each other for instance. The Z-95 will hardly damage a Tie with 3 agility, and if it evades, well good luck. The other way round, well you won't onehit a Headhunter but you will win an attrition war easily!

Well perhaps the Z-95 will have a Dial made out of only greens. Would surprise me, but hey we dont know yet so i'll give you that!

I think saying the Tie swarm is not that good because you depend on dice i think you can say that about every ship in the game, be it offensive or defensive dice. It is still a safer bet than most other lists.

I'm curious why everyone assumes that because you can run the Z-95 as a swarm ship, that it can or should be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm. The thing that makes the TIE swarm really dangerous in the hands of a typical player is Howlrunner, not the TIE Fighter--and I actually see her as a balance problem, rather than as an example to emulated on the Rebel side.

Don't try to fly every cheap ship as a swarm ship. Cheap ships aren't only used to roflstomp people in one round. You must unlearn what you have learned.

Howlrunner is just one pilot and dies like any other ship. You cannot make your list dependent on her pilot ability. Throw her in that swarm, but you have to expect her to be the first TIE out also. That's why I take Dark Curse instead... nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!

I'm curious why everyone assumes that because you can run the Z-95 as a swarm ship, that it can or should be able to compete with a Howlrunner swarm. The thing that makes the TIE swarm really dangerous in the hands of a typical player is Howlrunner, not the TIE Fighter--and I actually see her as a balance problem, rather than as an example to emulated on the Rebel side.

Don't try to fly every cheap ship as a swarm ship. Cheap ships aren't only used to roflstomp people in one round. You must unlearn what you have learned.

And again. Why should they not make the rebel swarm possible? It can hardly get as dominant as the imperial one once was. I would love to play it, as you might have guessed, if it's playabke enough. Not to mention that if it's good they would make tons of money with it.

Even fluff-wise, at the beginning of the Rebellion, the Z-95 was the staple of their fighters, and didn't fare too bad in that role. So why not?

The missile carrier role is really the only thing it might do okay for all we know now.