Why we should we not see a competitive Rebel counterpart then? I think that would hurt nobody and diversity of lists is a good thing.

Because for some people the loss of factional identity is a bad thing. If the difference between the Imperials and Rebels in terms of game play is lessened or goes away completely this can hurt the game.

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a valid opinion.

Just because the Z-95 doesn't work well as a 6+ ship swarm doesn't mean they don't have a place in the meta or even in tournaments.

Besides is 6 ships any less of a swarm then 7? Exactly how many ships do you need to make a swarm?

The Rebel's don't, nor should they have, a swarm dynamic for the same reason a wizard can't wear heavy armor and carry a battle ax in fantasy games. Diversity is what makes the game interesting and challenging. The player must choose and make compromises. Mastering those choices and compromises is what make a game fun and repayable.

I have no problem to admit that i would love to have a rebel swarm. Nothing bad in that.

You are also right about the fact i think that as well the Tie Fighter as well as Howlrunner in combination were broken. Even the second best list (4 X-Wings) was hardly able to handle it. In wave 1, arguably stretching out to wave 2 that was. It's kind of better now for the Rebels. There are really good and competitive Rebel lists that stand a good chance against Howl and her minions.

What really infuriated me in Wave 1 and after was that they took that long to actually balance the game. The Swarm, to me, was a really bad piece of game design. How could something like that slip through game testing (if there was any). As you say they may not have designed the game with competitive play in mind. But well we all know that ended. There is now a huge tournament scene around X-Wing. It is a fun game, but even in fun and friendly games, balance is required.

I have seen some tournaments in where the first 4-6 places were swarms in the beginning. Even though there were a lot of modified victories, and it was hard to play, the list was very dominant. How could that happen?

After that, they took that long to balance it out because they were careful not to create another monster list if you ask me. Because FFG noticed in the end what had happened. Which is not even something one can blame them for... It was the caution they should have applied before releasing wave 1! Because in X-Wing you can't just "nerf" a unit that is too strong. It's there to stay.

But what is my real problem, and there you misunderstood me completely, was not that i wish less diversity or have a narrow understanding of a competitive list. While we have some rebel lists by now that actually can compete, do you see anything imperial that can? 3 Bounty hunters, or 2 plus Howl are not bad, but still there is until now not much diversity in imperial lists. There are most imperial ships, and some rebel ones that stay on the shelf. Look at worlds. Top 8 lists. 1 Falcon, 2 Y-Wings, 3 Bombers in 8 lists. The whole rest Ties, X-Wings and B-Wings en masse. That means 3 ship types dominated worlds. I don't want to say those guys were not great players too, but still.

All this goes back to wave 1 when with one mistake, balancing went pretty much out the window for 3 waves of releases. They were afraid to release broken stuff again.

And now i think they are afraid to give the Rebels a swarm on one level with Howlrunner. Well okay i understand that, but now it would make no difference. Swarms are beatable by quite some lists finally. So why not.

And the argument that rebels should run more elite lists than imperials is absolutely futile!!

They will get the most elite ships possible. How does THAT bode with "factional identity"?? And i have no problems with that even if they turned out to be the new meta! So why say it's okay imps get 3 or 2-ship super elite lists but rebels can't get a swarm, because... err... Yeah good question. Why actually not?

I'm really reluctant to continue this discussion because your bias is clear and there's clearly nothing that is going to convince you at this point, but I will leave a couple parting thoughts.

1. The rebels are getting a ship that will allow them to build a swarm it may or may not be as effective as elite Empire lists (which aren't currently top lists and there's been a lot of complaints about the ships coming out). If you think I'm arguing the rebels shouldn't have a swarm at all, you're missing my point, one which I address in #3.

2. I see a disconnect in your point about the Imperials and their current tournament viability and then arguing for another good rebel list. I feel like Rebels have a lot more options than the Imperials and tend to see a Rebel dominated tournament scene, and it's why I've been playing Imperials more lately (though it isn't a swarm, as I'm just not a fan of them in general).

3. Factional identity is what it is and I was simply stating my own preference. You obviously disagree and that's fine. I don't have anything against a rebel swarm list, but I'd much prefer and understand a Tie swarm playing better and even being dominating more than a Rebel swarm.

Now Alex, so if i get you right you don't agree that Howlrunner and the swarm were or are overpowered. You don't make a statement where i do, and give you room for criticism by doing that. I may be wrong somewhere, but at least state your opinion about it for fairness.

If you don't think that the imperial swarm was broken, then where is the problem to let the Rebels have one.

Also another good Rebel list would add to diversity. I say nowhere that they should give the Empire only uncompetitive crap.

I said that right now i think the game is balanced even if there are subpar ship choices. Therefore it would not hurt to add a rebel swarm. If you think it's not necessary, no problem, but don't say it would be broken if you don't think Howlrunner swarms are also broken. That would make no sense.

Why we should we not see a competitive Rebel counterpart then? I think that would hurt nobody and diversity of lists is a good thing.

Because for some people the loss of factional identity is a bad thing. If the difference between the Imperials and Rebels in terms of game play is lessened or goes away completely this can hurt the game.

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a valid opinion.

Just because the Z-95 doesn't work well as a 6+ ship swarm doesn't mean they don't have a place in the meta or even in tournaments.

Besides is 6 ships any less of a swarm then 7? Exactly how many ships do you need to make a swarm?

The Rebel's don't, nor should they have, a swarm dynamic for the same reason a wizard can't wear heavy armor and carry a battle ax in fantasy games. Diversity is what makes the game interesting and challenging. The player must choose and make compromises. Mastering those choices and compromises is what make a game fun and repayable.

I think differently. Let imperials have their elite ships and some turrets if they want them. Let Rebels have a swarm. That's also diversity to me!

I don't think howl runner or a tie swarm is broken because it loses regularly and the game is fairly well balanced.

I don't think a rebel swarm should be the same or better then a tie swarm.

Your crying about how one ship doesn't behave like another ship and that's not the point of the z95 either in game or in the fluff.

The z95 is not meant to be a rebel tie/ln. It's meant to be a cheap missile boat.

If you want a few assault missiles but don't want to overload your overpriced ships making them a bigger target use a z95. If you want a cheap ship with a bigger alpha strike w some concussive missiles use a z95.

If your looking for a copy of the tie/ln play the tie/ln.

I'm sure the imperials will love a Han falcon or a bwing or a wedge x wing. The imperial heavy hitters are relatively overpriced for what they give you compared to rebels. And honestly I think the rebels are going to be fine with all the ships and cards coming thier way with the new expansions and Capitol ship cards. Aces are not going to change the imperial side much. The defender to me seems like an overpriced fighter and the phantom may have a larger impact depending in the cloak rules. I think the new xwings and the new crew cards and the z95 will have a significant impact on rebel lists compared to what's coming for imperials. The point of the story the z95 is not a tie ln. Tie swarm is not overpowered or broken.

For me, it's actually incredibly poor game design to create a ship and base design decisions on whether it is not only competitive but comparable to a single opposing list... I think it's especially poor design and balance to create a ship on the opposing side that matches that...

By the way, they ARE giving a swarm to the rebels, it just might not be the best way to fly rebels in a competitive setting. That is different than it being competitive, just like three thirty point fighters might not bet the best way to fly the Imperials.

There's a lot of room between "Swarmy Death" and "Old Junk."

The Rebel's don't, nor should they have, a swarm dynamic for the same reason a wizard can't wear heavy armor and carry a battle ax in fantasy games.

That is however just an opinion... In a number of fantasy RPG's a wizard can in fact wear heavy armor and use a battle ax. So your point isn't even completely true.

But the point is that some people don't want Rebels to have Swarms or Imperials to have Elite ships... It does seem however that FFG doesn't agree, because they're giving us both in wave 4. To say that shouldn't happen is quite literately the same as shutting the barn door after the horses have got out.

I think part of the problem here is there seems to be a fairly narrow definition of a Swarm.

A 7 Z-95 list, may not match up well against a 7 Tie w/Howlrunner list. We are at best guessing at that. We can't actually know how it will go until we know the dial, and other stuff like who the unknown pilots are, and what other options the Z's might have. And as was shown up a few posts it's not like the Z-95 is that much worse then a Tie in the first place.

But what about a 8 Z-95 swarm vs 8 Academy pilot swarm? Take out Howlrunner and then what? What do the odds look like then? They at the very least become better for the Z's with their PS2 vs PS1.

What about a 6 Z-95 swarm? Or a 3 Z, 3 X swarm? Or does 6 ships not count as a swarm at all?

The Rebel's don't, nor should they have, a swarm dynamic for the same reason a wizard can't wear heavy armor and carry a battle ax in fantasy games.

That is however just an opinion... In a number of fantasy RPG's a wizard can in fact wear heavy armor and use a battle ax. So your point isn't even completely true.

You've missed the point entirely. The point is, part of what makes a game fun and re-playable are the choices the game forces the player to make. If there was a single ship that could do everything, it wouldn't be much of a game would it? The fact that the Rebels and the Empire have their own identity is a part of what makes this game so great. Yes, the upgrade cards allow for some of the lines to be blurred and for players to live out the fantasy of "what if". But at no time does the Empire cease to be the what it is at its core. And the same is true for the Rebel fleet.

So no, I don't want a ship that allows me to build a fleet just like the other side just so I can say I'm playing a popular tactic, but with the opposite faction. This isn't needed to be "fair" or to bring "balance" either. Any 100 point squad can beat any other 100 point squad on any given day. The game IS balanced and FFG should be applauded for that.

Now Alex, so if i get you right you don't agree that Howlrunner and the swarm were or are overpowered. You don't make a statement where i do, and give you room for criticism by doing that. Well state your opinin about it for fairness.

If you don't think that the imperial swarm was broken, then where is the problem to let the Rebels have one.

Also another good Rebel list would add to diversity. I say nowhere that they should not give the Empire only uncompetitive crap.

I said that right now i think the game is balanced even if there are subpar ship choices. Therefore it would not hurt to add a rebel swarm. If you think it's not necessary, no problem, but don't say it would be broken if you don't think Howlrunner swarms are broken good. That would make no sense.

Well, until parts of this post and your most recent post, I think your stance looked very different and came across -- to a large extent -- as, "The Tie swarm is a broken list, so the rebels need a similarly broken list."

No, I don't think Howlrunner Swarms are "broken" at this point in the game. A top list? Sure. Does that mean I think that a Z-95 should be designed so that their swarm should be just as good? Nope, but that doesn't mean I want the ship to be designed so it never sees competitive table play. I'd prefer that all ships have their uses and are part of a competitive list, but that is easier said than done.

You seem to think, for some reason that my point is that a rebel swarm shouldn't be possible at all, but I've never made that point, even if I've said that I'd prefer clear differences (and strengths and weaknesses) in the faction and think that makes the game better and more interesting, provided that both factions have good options, but that doesn't mean they need hyper competitive options for everything.

My own bias, from a "competitive" perspective, is that currently I see far more players choosing Rebels in tournaments because of the wide variety of their possible builds (and the flexibility of the B-Wing) Another dominating list would push that further in that direction, especially if it's in the nature of a swarm, the one thing the rebels don't have. Again, that doesn't mean I think the rebel swarm shouldn't be playable or possible, but I think making it a top list simply by design would be an incredibly bad move on FFGs part.

You've missed the point entirely. The point is, part of what makes a game fun and re-playable are the choices the game forces the player to make.

Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I missed the point.

So no, I don't want a ship that allows me to build a fleet just like the other side just so I can say I'm playing a popular tactic, but with the opposite faction.

Again, you're saying they shouldn't do something they've already done. Once Wave 4 comes out I can build a 8 Z-95 list, which will play a fair amount like a 8 Tie list. I'll also be able to build an effective 3-4 Elite Imperial list, which will play a fair amount like many of the 3-4 Rebel lists do.

You may not want that, may think it's a bad idea. But it's already happened so it's too late to argue that it shouldn't happen.

So no, I don't want a ship that allows me to build a fleet just like the other side just so I can say I'm playing a popular tactic, but with the opposite faction.

Again, you're saying they shouldn't do something they've already done. Once Wave 4 comes out I can build a 8 Z-95 list, which will play a fair amount like a 8 Tie list. I'll also be able to build an effective 3-4 Elite Imperial list, which will play a fair amount like many of the 3-4 Rebel lists do.

You may not want that, may think it's a bad idea. But it's already happened so it's too late to argue that it shouldn't happen.

Maybe you want to buy the same ships all over again, with their only difference being physical appearance and faction they are assigned too, but I personally do not. I hope wave 4 provides NEW ways of playing the game. If I want to play a swarm, I'll bust out my tie fighters and do so. If the Z-95 is nothing but a reskinned Tie Fighter, then I will be saving my money. Thankfully, from what we've seen, this does not appear to be the case.

For me, it's actually incredibly poor game design to create a ship and base design decisions on whether it is not only competitive but comparable to a single opposing list... I think it's especially poor design and balance to create a ship on the opposing side that matches that...

By the way, they ARE giving a swarm to the rebels, it just might not be the best way to fly rebels in a competitive setting. That is different than it being competitive, just like three thirty point fighters might not bet the best way to fly the Imperials.

There's a lot of room between "Swarmy Death" and "Old Junk."

I only regret that I have but one like to give for this post.

Thanks. I think one of of my frustrations with the discussions here about ships, especially unreleased versions, is the false dichotomy (elite tournament ship/worthless), which is what my last statement was really addressing here and it was the same thing I saw in the discussion of the Defender. There are some good discussions that buck that trend, but it's usually framed clearly (the A-Wing and Y-wing thread come to mind).

I also have enough faith in FFG game design that I think they have a much larger picture in mind than correcting each and every mistake with the next wave, which is very short-sighted.

If the Z-95 is nothing but a reskinned Tie Fighter, then I will be saving my money. Thankfully, from what we've seen, this does not appear to be the case.

Of course they're not the same thing. But that doesn't mean they can't be played in much the same way as a Tie Fighter is.

Honestly how much difference is there between a 8 Z-95 Swarm and a 8 Tie Fighter swarm? How much real difference is there between the two lists? Which isn't at all the same thing as saying the two ships are the same, clearly they're different.

So if your point is, that the Rebels shouldn't get a ship that can be played as a Swarm, you're too late, it's already happened. It may not be as effective of a list as the 7 Ties w/Howlrunner, but it's still very much a swarm list by any reasonable definition.

Wave 4 will provide new ways to play the game, but it will also give both sides options that the other side had. Such as the 8 ship swarm or the 3 elite ship list.

If the Z-95 is nothing but a reskinned Tie Fighter, then I will be saving my money. Thankfully, from what we've seen, this does not appear to be the case.

Of course they're not the same thing. But that doesn't mean they can't be played in much the same way as a Tie Fighter is.

Honestly how much difference is there between a 8 Z-95 Swarm and a 8 Tie Fighter swarm? How much real difference is there between the two lists? Which isn't at all the same thing as saying the two ships are the same, clearly they're different.

So if your point is, that the Rebels shouldn't get a ship that can be played as a Swarm, you're too late, it's already happened. It may not be as effective of a list as the 7 Ties w/Howlrunner, but it's still very much a swarm list by any reasonable definition.

Wave 4 will provide new ways to play the game, but it will also give both sides options that the other side had. Such as the 8 ship swarm or the 3 elite ship list.

I'm not sure anyone is saying they are flat out against a Rebel swarmable (now we're just making up words lol) ship. We just don't want Tie Fighters, because we already HAVE Tie Fighters. If a Z-95 swarm is created, it should still feel like a Rebel fleet and act like one. I have no doubt that this will be the case.

If a Z-95 swarm is created, it should still feel like a Rebel fleet and act like one. I have no doubt that this will be the case.

In that case it seems we agree, but were just talking past each other...

Honestly how much difference is there between a 8 Z-95 Swarm and a 8 Tie Fighter swarm? How much real difference is there between the two lists? Which isn't at all the same thing as saying the two ships are the same, clearly they're different.

So if your point is, that the Rebels shouldn't get a ship that can be played as a Swarm, you're too late, it's already happened. It may not be as effective of a list as the 7 Ties w/Howlrunner, but it's still very much a swarm list by any reasonable definition.

Wave 4 will provide new ways to play the game, but it will also give both sides options that the other side had. Such as the 8 ship swarm or the 3 elite ship list.

But something I've also been trying to express here (and failing?) is that just because you can swarm a Z-95 doesn't mean that will be the most effective way to fly it. Swarms of TIEs largely caught on due to Howlrunner (which is why you don't see a lot of 8-ship swarms out there winning tournaments), but I'm still really confident we won't see a Rebel Howlrunner. And that plus the likely dial differences plus the missile upgrade means that despite their surface similarities, I think the Z-95 is going to end up occupying a very different place in the metagame than the TIE Fighter generally does.

Anyway, this is a long way around to say that I agree with you substantially, but I think we part ways on the question of whether Wave 4 compromises faction identity. FFG at least has a chance to introduce a "swarmable" Rebel ship without encouraging swarm-style play--and similarly, I'd expect to see a big difference between a 3-Defender list (assuming those get popular, which I wouldn't bet on) and a 3 X-wing build. Even if both factions can now field "elite" builds, that doesn't necessarily imply that they're going to feel the same or function the same way on the table, any more than a list with 6-7 Z-95s is going to feel like a list with 6-7 TIE Fighters.

if Z-95s are more like X-wings, then a Z-swarm is going to fly very differently.

I expect the Z-95 dial to be somewhere between the X and Tie fighter. But I think your over all point is correct. That the Z-95 swarm won't preform quite the same as a Tie Fighter swarm.

But does that make it any less of a Swarm?

I also agree that the 8 Z swarm or even 6 Z swarm may not be the best way to fly it. It will defiantly not be the only way to use these ships.

The real question, and one we can't answer at all, is all effective will it be. Will a 6 to 8 Z-95 list be viable at all? I think it will be viable for games at the LGS, but isn't something you'll see in the top 8 at most major tourney's.

but I think we part ways on the question of whether Wave 4 compromises faction identity.

I don't think we disagree that much really. I think the feel of both factions will largely stay in place, a 3 Defender or 4 Phantom list won't be exactly the same as a 4 X-Wing list... The Z-95 swarms won't be exactly the same as a Tie Swarm.

But things that were unique to one side or the other are no longer as unique as they were. Even if a 8 Z-95 Swarm isn't popular, you'll still see people playing it. Just like a 4 Tie Phantom list will be out there.

So while they haven't destroyed the faction identity, they've blurred the lines some. People who want to play a swarm list will no longer have Ties as their only real option, same goes for those who want to play a 3-4 ship list.

Seeing how the X was more maneuverable then the Z BUT could do sharper turns, I'm expecting to see more of a B dial. Red hard 1 turns, 4 k-turn, and no 3 hard turn but a red 3 bank. Not sure why every one thinks the Z was maneuverable, they were phased out for a reason, and there are multiple references of the meh handling of the craft.

Edit: heck I wouldn't even be surprised if it was white 1 banks like the Y.

Seeing how the X was more maneuverable then the Z BUT could do sharper turns, I'm expecting to see more of a B dial. Red hard 1 turns, 4 k-turn, and no 3 hard turn but a red 3 bank. Not sure why every one thinks the Z was maneuverable, they were phased out for a reason, and there are multiple references of the meh handling of the craft.

Edit: heck I wouldn't even be surprised if it was white 1 banks like the Y.

It actually wouldn't surprise me to see the Z-95 have almost the same maneuver dial as the Y-wing. Maybe just a little less red.

Honestly how much difference is there between a 8 Z-95 Swarm and a 8 Tie Fighter swarm? How much real difference is there between the two lists? Which isn't at all the same thing as saying the two ships are the same, clearly they're different.

So if your point is, that the Rebels shouldn't get a ship that can be played as a Swarm, you're too late, it's already happened. It may not be as effective of a list as the 7 Ties w/Howlrunner, but it's still very much a swarm list by any reasonable definition.

Wave 4 will provide new ways to play the game, but it will also give both sides options that the other side had. Such as the 8 ship swarm or the 3 elite ship list.

I think the difference between a Z-95 swarm and a TIE Fighter swarm will depend substantially on the Z-95 dial. TIE Fighters are fast and very maneuverable in-close; if Z-95s are more like X-wings, then a Z-swarm is going to fly very differently. When you couple that with the fact that they're easier to hit but harder to kill, you might see a big difference.

But something I've also been trying to express here (and failing?) is that just because you can swarm a Z-95 doesn't mean that will be the most effective way to fly it. Swarms of TIEs largely caught on due to Howlrunner (which is why you don't see a lot of 8-ship swarms out there winning tournaments), but I'm still really confident we won't see a Rebel Howlrunner. And that plus the likely dial differences plus the missile upgrade means that despite their surface similarities, I think the Z-95 is going to end up occupying a very different place in the metagame than the TIE Fighter generally does.

Anyway, this is a long way around to say that I agree with you substantially, but I think we part ways on the question of whether Wave 4 compromises faction identity. FFG at least has a chance to introduce a "swarmable" Rebel ship without encouraging swarm-style play--and similarly, I'd expect to see a big difference between a 3-Defender list (assuming those get popular, which I wouldn't bet on) and a 3 X-wing build. Even if both factions can now field "elite" builds, that doesn't necessarily imply that they're going to feel the same or function the same way on the table, any more than a list with 6-7 Z-95s is going to feel like a list with 6-7 TIE Fighters.

I would agree. The Z-95 is the oldest, junkiest fighter out there; it's at best a contemporary of the Y-Wing and if anything I see it's dial as being somewhere between X and Y. As a result, it is fundamentally not going to dogfight enemies properly, and if it can take one extra hit, it's less capable of avoiding enemies in the first place.

I suspect the Headhunter is going to form something new; a sort of "Alpha Strike Swarm" - it's key advantage is that missile slot and the fact that two cheap platforms with a missile slot each puts out twice as much ordnance as one more expensive platform, even if it has multiple missile slots. Add that to the fact that a concussion missile doesn't care if it came from a Z-95 piloted by an unnamed goon or an X.1 piloted by Darth Vader himself, and you can put out a veritable blizzard of missiles on the first couple of turns; 6 Bandit Squadron Pilots, all with a missile type of your choice, fit within a standard squad.