The Z-95: Swarmy death or old junk

By ForceM, in X-Wing

Okay, so the Z-95 will come. And we know what the cheapest pilot (I assume) will be.

The generic Bandit squadron will have a 2/2/2/2 stat lineup with 2 PS and a missile icon, with Focus and TL as available actions. All for 12 points.

I know we don't know everything about add-on cards and we know nothing about its maneuvers yet, as well as named pilots.

But I am already a little concerned. The comparison for the cheap Z-95 to the Tie/Ln is evident. I know we can't always compare stuff ship to ship as different factions have different support for their ships. But nonetheless, a lot of players will take the Tie Fighter Academy pilot as the reference point to compare the Z-95, no way around that.

So let's compare:

You gain:

Target lock action.

2 Shields (1 overall hit point).

Missile symbol.

1 Pilot skill over the Academy Pilot

You lose:

1 Agility.

Evade Action.

Barrel roll Action.

Defense:

As far as I am concerned, I consider that a very bad trade for the Z-95.

Why? You gain 1 hitpoint and switch one for a shield. Not too shabby, but the Z-95 still loses a ton of survivability compared to the Tie. 3 agility with evade, or even with focus is really hard to touch even with 3 attack dice. While 2 agility is rather easy to overcome especially if only paired with focus. A lot of hitpoints mean nothing if you can not defend them properly with other stats. Without barrel roll, you also lack a very important tool to dodge fire arcs.

So if you ask me what ship is more durable. No question, it's the Tie.

Offense;

Now pretty much any other rebel ship trades defense for offense. But not the Z-95. TL with 2 attack dice does not make a ton of sense. The damage potential with Focus is about the same. Of course the Z-95 needs the TL to fire its missiles. To me, the missile symbol costing anything in a ships bar is a joke anyway. It offers an option, but no real benefit as it is. But if you wanna go swarmy, you won't take the missile anyway since a lot of them are overcosted as some people would agree. And for Pilot skill 2 it makes even less sense since you won't get that much opportunities to even fire the missiles. So the missile symbol is pretty much worthless on this ship and pilot.

The most important thing that we might want to look at although is the environment. Tie Fighters have Howlrunner. That is a huge buff to their damage potential. And since I don't expect any of the rebel ships to come to have a howlrunneresque ability, Z-95 swarms lose flat out on damage potential against imperial swarms. Okay we get Ethan, but his ability is not half as good as howlrunners for a 2 attack dice ship. And he is way too expensive for a swarm.

So for better offense, at best it is a tie for the Z-95. But if we consider Howl... yeah the Tie is better.

Maneuvers:

As already stated we know nothing about the dial. But considering the fluff, the Z-95 will be a lot slower and less nimble than a Tie/Ln. I would say it gets a wide array of 1 and 2 maneuvers, but no 5 straight. I don't know if it will get a 1 turn. Possible but not necessarily. so it might be possible to outmaneuver Ties at slow speeds, but I would not bet on this happening. Otherwise no idea on the number of green maneuvers for the Z-95. Perhaps this will be one of its strong points, perhaps not.

A huge disadvantage is of course the lack of barrel roll if compared to the Tie.

So I can't predict how this will go but I expect the Tie to come out on top in this category as well.

Pilots:

Most of the Tie Pilots are very strong picks. Howlrunner, Backstabber, Mithel, Curse... All very good if you know how to use them. As we don't know yet what pilots the Z-95 will have and what they do, I will make no prediction on this. But if they want to balance this in any way, I think they should add at least one named pilot at a usefulness level of Howlrunner at least, with some area of effect buff.

The 2 Pilot skill over the 1 of the Academy pilot could be considered a good thing. But since such cheap ships will get used a lot of times to block enemy ships, it is kind of a 2 edged knife...

New cards:

Well of course this is where the saving grace for this ship could come from. the Wingman card springs to the eye, even if we don't know what it does. Of course if it is useful to swarms, Tie swarms could potentially also just take it, except they made it Z-95 only.

The Ion pulse missile is nice and cheap, but even that will not get you killed a tie a lot faster (and still costs 3 points you lack in the end), it's very difficult to hit a tie even after he is ionized if you have 2 attack dice only.

All in all, I think they stuck to the fluff of the Z-95 pretty well, and I can see why they made it the way it is. But I have my strong doubts that it will be any competition for the Tie/Ln if there is not any yet unknown element, like a super powerful pilot or option card, or an epic good maneuver dial, that the Z-95 can rely on to make it more efficient. If there is nothing like that, I doubt we will see a lot of competitive rebel swarms in all honesty.

The case of the B-Wing gives me hope though. Before it came out, a lot of players on the forum where already saying it was overpriced and had nothing to offer. But oh were they wrong! The B-Wing is now well established, and one of the reasons for it is the advanced sensors card. I honestly hope that something similar will happen with the Z-95. A combo or card that nobody expects and that makes it a staple of the rebel fleet!

Edited by ForceM

The B-Wing is now well established, and one of the reasons for it is the advanced sensors card. I honestly hope that something similar will happen with the Z-95. A combo or card that nobody expects and that makes it a staple of the rebel fleet!

With only a missile in the upgrade bar the only card which may do that is a modification. The expansion does include a modification.

Well i don't think the ion pulse missile will be that decisive card anyway, but there is still hope for pilots or Z-95 only cards.

Edited by ForceM

Well i don't think the ion pulse missile will be that decisive card anyway, but there is still hope for pilots or Z-95 only cards.

The first paragraph on a Z-95 only card should consist of a single line in italics. There does not seem to be one in the expansion. Off course there might be a card which works better with a Z-95 than with other ships. If the PS4 pilot gets an EPT ...

It's always really tough to judge any unit in a game like this in isolation. I'm actually looking really forward to these blighters; they fill an obvious niche in the rebel list building process; a mega-cheap unit. These things may be the most incredible blockers ever. They may synergise with other units particularly well. They may just work out better in 'real-life' than expected for many reasons!

As an individual unit, yeah, these guys can't compare to anything, s'true. But as a component of a force of numerous ships with unique abilities and roles on the battlefield, they may well pull their weight!

It's always really tough to judge any unit in a game like this in isolation. I'm actually looking really forward to these blighters; they fill an obvious niche in the rebel list building process; a mega-cheap unit. These things may be the most incredible blockers ever. They may synergise with other units particularly well. They may just work out better in 'real-life' than expected for many reasons!

As an individual unit, yeah, these guys can't compare to anything, s'true. But as a component of a force of numerous ships with unique abilities and roles on the battlefield, they may well pull their weight!

So no, i don't look at the ships in an empty space. Actually it's exactly what concerns me about it. The imperials have Howlrunner, and that on top of being defensively better than the Z-95 gives, unless of course the rebels would get an option to support their swarm equally well, a big edge to the Ties.

So: as an individual unit they don't compete well against individual Ties, and as a whole swarm, for all that we can foresee and know until now at least, they will fare even worse.

If there is nothing that we still don't know about the Z-95 and that makes it better than we could assume now, i think it's not well balanced against its direct counterpart, which is the Tie/Ln.

As an individual unit, yeah, these guys can't compare to anything, s'true. But as a component of a force of numerous ships with unique abilities and roles on the battlefield, they may well pull their weight!

I totally agree. And I totally think that the synergy with other ships in your list idea is where this game is heading, more so now than ever. I think the days of 1 ship type lists being uber competitive is on its way out.

Guys... Again. What support and synergy are you talking about? The rebels hardly have anything to support a swarm type list. I don't look at the Z-95 individually here and i already stated that and explained why.

Until now, i see no real advantages to pick a Z-95 over an imperial Tie/Ln. Not as an individual ship, and not in any sort of rebel list.

If you see any possibility right now to make a competitive list with them that has any sort of advantage over a Tie/Ln list, be my guest. That's why i made this thread too.

I know we don't know all the details about the ship yet, and that is what i hope for to surprise me in a good way.

And meanwile the Tie swarm still is and always has been a very dominant list, coming into the top 5 of nearly any tournament and championship. So the days of spam or swarm lists are by no means counted. Not at all i fear.

Edited by ForceM

The B-Wing is now well established, and one of the reasons for it is the advanced sensors card. I honestly hope that something similar will happen with the Z-95. A combo or card that nobody expects and that makes it a staple of the rebel fleet!

With only a missile in the upgrade bar the only card which may do that is a modification. The expansion does include a modification.

No actual grounding for this, just something that I think makes sense. By nature of being a " system," it makes sense to me that they might make a modification card that costs like 2 points that opens a system upgrade for you. If your ship doesn't have a slot it makes it expensive, and you have to give up the option of another modification. But it would allow more ships to take the powerful upgrades at a higher cost.

AND it could help a z95 missile swarm a lot, especially advanced sensors or fire control system.

If the design of the Z95 is to support a Rebel swarm, I expect at the very least that some of the named Z95 pilot cards will have some area buff effect. But we haven't seen all the Z95 cards yet.

You make good points about the Z95's survivability compared to a TIE fighter. I guess we'll see.

Edited by Pygon

Anyone else concerned that the z95 will make the Awing obsolete making PTL the only reason to buy it?

I've decided that an 8 Headhunter swarm won't be as effective as a 7 Tie, but 6 headhunters with missiles will HURT

Anyone else concerned that the z95 will make the Awing obsolete making PTL the only reason to buy it?

Not exactly, the A-Wing has evade, boost, 3 agility making it a much more survivable ship and still a bargain at 17 points.

I mean for the Tie Advanced on the other side we have exactly that happening against the Tie Fighter. But the A-Wig has a lot more advantages over the Z-95 than the Advanced has over the Fighter.

Guys... Again. What support and synergy are you talking about? The rebels hardly have anything to support a swarm type list. I don't look at the Z-95 individually here and i already stated that and explained why.

Until now, i see no real advantages to pick a Z-95 over an imperial Tie/Ln. Not as an individual ship, and not in any sort of rebel list.

If you see any possibility right now to make a competitive list with them that has any sort of advantage over a Tie/Ln list, be my guest. That's why i made this thread too.

I know we don't know all the details about the ship yet, and that is what i hope for to surprise me in a good way.

And meanwile the Tie swarm still is and always has been a very dominant list, coming into the top 5 of nearly any tournament and championship. So the days of spam or swarm lists are by no means counted. Not at all i fear.

The fact that there is a card called wingman, leads me to believe that there will be swarm support options for the rebels. Even if it is only one card.

I think 6 z-95s 3 with assault missiles and 3 with cluster will be a strong list. You have assaults for the swarms and cluster for the low agility high hp ships. You could even drop a z-95 and throw in dutch to help give target locks so you can target lock and focus. And as was pointed out we still don't know what the higher ps pilots abilities will be nor do we know what most of the upgrades do.

Tie fighters get one shotted alot I almost always play imperials so and if I have a game where a tie isn't one shotted I am happy. The z-95 generally won't be one shotted unless its a phantom or someone is running torpedoes.

Anyone else concerned that the z95 will make the Awing obsolete making PTL the only reason to buy it?

Not exactly, the A-Wing has evade, boost, 3 agility making it a much more survivable ship and still a bargain at 17 points.

I mean for the Tie Advanced on the other side we have exactly that happening against the Tie Fighter. But the A-Wig has a lot more advantages over the Z-95 than the Advanced has over the Fighter.

The Z-95 will not make the A-Wing obsolete. If you are just looking for a cheap ship or two to fill a squad or carry a missile then the Z will probably replace the A but if you have a plan for the A-Wing that takes advantage of its speed and agility you'll still need the A-Wing.

Anyone else concerned that the z95 will make the Awing obsolete making PTL the only reason to buy it?

Not exactly, the A-Wing has evade, boost, 3 agility making it a much more survivable ship and still a bargain at 17 points.

I mean for the Tie Advanced on the other side we have exactly that happening against the Tie Fighter. But the A-Wig has a lot more advantages over the Z-95 than the Advanced has over the Fighter.

The Z-95 will not make the A-Wing obsolete. If you are just looking for a cheap ship or two to fill a squad or carry a missile then the Z will probably replace the A but if you have a plan for the A-Wing that takes advantage of its speed and agility you'll still need the A-Wing.

As i said i don't fear this either, i was just concerned about the Z-95 being competitive against its direct imperial counterpart, the Tie Fighter.

Anyone else concerned that the z95 will make the Awing obsolete making PTL the only reason to buy it?

Not exactly, the A-Wing has evade, boost, 3 agility making it a much more survivable ship and still a bargain at 17 points.

I mean for the Tie Advanced on the other side we have exactly that happening against the Tie Fighter. But the A-Wig has a lot more advantages over the Z-95 than the Advanced has over the Fighter.

These are all great points about the A-wing.

The thing that concerns me about this thread is that I think most are assuming the movement die will be similar to an X-wing. But the Z's reputation is that it is more agile than an X-wing. I think we're going to see a movement dial far closer to that of a Tie Fighter.

Interesting take that the rebels don't have swarm support. I assume this is because they don't have Howl? Meanwhile they do have pilots that can move around focus tokens and target locks, along with Biggs. Both sides have some pilots and effects that can help out their fellow squadmates. It's just that Howl's ability is sooo good and the more ships the better, it makes her the perfect swarm "buff," and no one has another ship that does that.

Dial will be pretty Xwing-esque, turn sharper and Kturn faster I'd bet. But the z95 will likely not function well as an 8 ship swarm. Even 6-7 with missiles is rough.

Z95 also replaces the Awing for the filler role but that doesn't make the awing obsolete. The awing was forced into the role but the z95 was actually built for it (awing will see less use but still a fun little ship).

Where the Z95 will shine is as rookie pilot light or light missile carrier. Add a hull and you have an offensively light rookie (+ Jan And you have a rookie for 6 points cheaper). Add a missile and you have a saved 3-5pts over the prototype for better PS. Ion pulse missiles will be nice for 15pts total. And I'm betting the named pilot abilities are very good. They've been getting better in general.

Z95 also replaces the Awing for the filler role but that doesn't make the awing obsolete. The awing was forced into the role but the z95 was actually built for it (awing will see less use but still a fun little ship).

Yes it really doesn't. It gives you a cheapo ship option which is great for when you just want to squeeze another ship onto the table but the A-Wing is a great interceptor/harasser ship when used properly.

If the design of the Z95 is to support a Rebel swarm, I expect at the very least that some of the named Z95 pilot cards will have some area buff effect. But we haven't seen all the Z95 cards yet.

This, the only thing that is holding Tie swarm strong on the board is Howlrunner. (I'd rather face 8 ties over 7 including howl anyday)

If the rebels do not get a character that kinda does the same thing then the Z95 are just not a swarm unit. I think it is just as simple as that.

I do think that with the Z95 the standard for amount of ships in a rebel force will creep to 5 on average. (currently 4 seems the standard)

If the design of the Z95 is to support a Rebel swarm, I expect at the very least that some of the named Z95 pilot cards will have some area buff effect. But we haven't seen all the Z95 cards yet.

This, the only thing that is holding Tie swarm strong on the board is Howlrunner. (I'd rather face 8 ties over 7 including howl anyday)

If the rebels do not get a character that kinda does the same thing then the Z95 are just not a swarm unit. I think it is just as simple as that.

I believe the "Wingman" card might be this new AOE that comes with Z95. I love support ships, so I look forward to wave 4!

I think the thing here is that the tie is going to win the swarm batle but the Z95 will outperform it in the filler and fire support roles. Outside of price a tie fighter's biggest strength is their dial, but that dial is not good enough to follow an interceptor and too good to fly on other ships wings without sacrificing that edge. The Z is probably not going to rely on that as much and by flying in tight formation escorting rebel synergy ships will give them cheap, reliable targets to dump their abilities on as needed.

The Z's higher health and low agility make it less sustainable long term but they do make it more reliable, by whihc I mean a tie fighter is more likely to survive an entire battle but at any moment an unlikely roll will kill it, with a z you know the enemy will waste at least two attacks on it, which has its own advantages.

A cheap ship you can swarm and slap assault missiles onto?

Don't underestimate that.