I figure in Force and Destiny they will introduce rolling pools that have force die with difficulty/setback dice. So the force pips are successes (canceled by failures)and the difficulty/setback dice are opposed checks when against other force users.

Force users are a notch above the rest. Because when you think about it, if you combat someone with mystical powers (the force) you are most likely not going to be able to resist if you also dont have mystical powers...

I hope not.

I expect for Force & Destiny to add more Jedi/Sith related items/classes/powers for wider diversity without wholly changing how the force power system works in EotE or AoR. AoR's additions are seamlessly merged since the system was designed for all 3 books to be compatible.

Yeah I wouldn't think so either. I don't see them deciding to make things even more difficult for the force sensitives than they already are. EotE and AoR have done a great job with how the force works so far, and it balances itself.

It seems to be that for the most part two largest opinions are you as a player should either get to be uber god right out the gate, nothing gonna stand in your way... or GMs that want to basically punish their players for playing force sensitives. I don't see why so many GMs are making the force even more difficult to use than it already is. Even at force rating 2, doing anything fancy is still hard... unless you want to give in too that easy power... but if you're letting your players convert force pips all the time without it changing how the character acts as a whole... you aren't doing it right. As Yoda says, quicker, easier the dark side is. And this is very well represented by the fact that 7 of the 12 sides of the die are dark side. But most those are single pips. So yes, it is easier to fuel your powers with the dark side, though its harder to manage large feats of the force.

Thanks, you bring up some good points. But the player insists that he uses the Force without moving...

So that can leave no trace of him being a Force user. I guess in the EU force users can do this. He brought up Star Killer sitting and moving stuff? I'm not big into the EU as I feel it is written by hacks, and fellow GMs trying to showcase of their characters. And there is so much inconsistency in it. I cannot think one one time in the Movies when a Force User does not use a gesture to use the Force. He argued that is was just for the movie audience. And that if I was going to not follow "canon" then he would not have played a Force User. He also said that he as a player never made the motions of using the force like in the movies. I got a kick out of that. My players also don't hold up their hands like they are shooting a gun, (ok,well sometimes), or put their hands on imaginary starships controls and show they are piloting.

I guess I just find the character boring, and half the time ineffective in combat, since he will not use weapon...

I have tried to talk to the player but he seems unwilling to compromise, I already stated above, we had an agreement on the original concept, now he changed it, which is his right. But after expressing my concerns, he said he will not change his plan. So he wants to be a super secret gray force user, because according to him a dark and a light act cancel each other out, and no can tell he is using the force, so he can ever be detected. I feel that now we went from a cool and fun character, he has went to a boring one sided power character. So I guess in the long run, it is really just a problem with the player that I will have to resolve. Either I will have to come on board and let him do, or as Ahrimon talks about in his thread, Forcing My Vision on this player and character. So do I have the blinders on? And just being a Summer's Eve?

My Thoughts:

1) Starkiller was trained by Darth Vader and is the most powerful force being ever concieved by some interpretations of "cannon" so who trained this slicer to manifest force powers with just the use of their mind because they're going to have to be at least as strong as Vader otherwise known as The Chosen One for that to fly.

2) I've never played the force unleashed games but I think his claim is false on it's face and I'd need concrete proof he never uses his hands like every other force user.

3) "Cannon" is currently being rewritten by Disney the only things cannon right now are the 6 movies, Clone Wars & Rebels. The jury is still out on the Christmas special & the Ewok movies so if he wants to use a "cannon" argument he has to pull from those sources only at the moment as the whole EU is undone. Even the Darkhorse comic line has been removed from cannon when the license shifted back to Marvel.

4) Again with Starkiller (since this is his arguement), he fights Shaak Ti ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaak_Ti ) in the games because she didn't die in the cinematic release of the prequels thus is presumed to survive Order 66 however deleted scenes from Revenge of the Sith have Grievous execute her so you tell me how "cannon" the Starkiller can do it argument is.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjUAatYo6us )

5) If he refuses to use a conduit to focus the force such as hand motions add Setbacks to his checks or make him suffer strain from the taxing nature of trying to tap into the force without proper training using only the power of his mind while standing stiff as a board in combat with blaster bolts firing everywhere.

6) Have his connection to the force weaken due to lack of proper training or failure to follow Jedi/Sith teachings the Force is described as living entity it can get mad at him at GM discretion as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly this is kind of an extreme solution since it limits the player but if they're fighting you about literally demonstrating hand movements they deserve a bit of a slapdown.

6) Also even if he never uses it Vader could sense Kenobi & Luke without either of them using power from what would be Extreme starship range so an Imperial Hand can still find him and he won't have the training to defend himself from detection.

On the subject of just how good you can be with 1 Force die I recall from an Order 66 Podcast (or several) and the book a few things worth mentioning:

1) If someone has several ranks of Strength/Range/Magnitude it takes only 1 pip to activate all upgrades for a particular category 1 for Strength and 1 for Range separately. The 1 pip for the power itself is also required.

2) You can only spend 1 Destiny point per check so if you roll double black you can at best get 1 pip out of it which reading my book means you can chuck a Sil 0 object Short range for 5 damage as an attack using the Discipline skill.

3) In order to claim someone can activate a grenade on someone they better have the final control upgrade letting them manipulate with the force like it's an object in their hands, same for pulling something out of someones hands unopposed. The dev who fielded this question said it could also be an opposed check versus the targets weapon skill to hold onto their weapon.

You aren't being a ****** that's for sure, at least as you tell it and I find that only so much bias can go into one version of events. I love Star Wars and I really try to fit cannon in everywhere but the "it's cannon so deal with it" doesn't fly unless he can prove that all Jedi and Sith do it just for dramatic license.

Fine manipulation and disarming an armed opponent are two completely different upgrades.

As for canon, people need to remember, you have the 6 movies, clone wars, and an unreleased series as canon, that's it now. Disney is, thankfully, going through the EU and picking it apart, because lets face it, most the EU stuff, especially when related to the force, is complete garbage. It isn't till EU you start getting these ridiculous, obscene uses of the force, like smashing star destroyers together... or clone immortality... just so much junk.

Was one of my biggest problems with WEG system, is so many of their sourcebooks were based on garbage EU stuff. I personally enjoy how FFG is just sticking with OT. Its the most balanced and known setting, you don't have to worry about huge power level clashes, because despite what some people seem to not realize, if you are a "Jedi" you are powerful, far more powerful than a starting character. Even a padawan was generally far better trained and prepared, than a starting character, because they were raised in it. From initiate. Which means, generally they were discovered while still just a few months old. This process hasn't happened for a long time by this point in the series.

Look at Star Wars Galaxies when it first came out. Earning the force sensitive slot in the first place required crazy effort and time, and even then you got access to a character that could be a if you wanted, and they lived long enough... with permadeath, but you were powerful. A single jedi could be equal to a group, but they had to earn it, it was long, and hard as heck.

I think I remember an earlier post mentioning the group that believed their was no dark side, only dark intentions. Don't forget that this turned out to be extrememly wrong and Solo became completely corrupted by the dark side.

R2Builder:
Ok, I just listened to the pod cast where Sam Stewart explains the force (and move). It's episode 15 and starts around the 48 minute mark.

This is how I understand it...

In short: You can pick up creatures, I was wrong about that (above). You have to actually hit them (with a discipline check), against all their defenses and dodges etc... Just like shooting them. Then the damage is soaked too. Not super powerful!

Moving/removing an object from a target, like tossing their blasters... the recommendation is thus: if it's a minion, no biggie... if it's your BBEGs, or someone that's supposed to be a challenge, then it's a discipline roll to hit vs' the targets athletics or weapons skill to keep their weapon.

In order to do anything you need light side points, and exceptionally rarely dark side points (with GM approval), but keep in mind you're not a Darth, so dark-side comes at a high cost, and is very limited to what actually should be available. (pg 278 Core) That said, if you're tossing one force dice, the most you can get is two light side points. You require the first light side point to activate the talent, the second (and further points, if you're rolling multiple dice) to activate an "upgrade".

So if your force user is using one dice, and manages to roll the two light side points (3 in 12 chance), they activate move (first point), and upgrade the weight to silhouette 1, to lift a person (second light side point). That's it, done! You would need a second force dice (generating more light side force points) to do anything else.

In addition the damage is based off the silhouette of the person thrown, and still armor and soak absorbs.

From the sounds of it, the situations he (Sam) is talking about, is a game he has been in for a while, with their force user spending almost everything on move, and the character is rather gimped, still. He hasn't gotten a second force dice yet.

You should really listen to it, make your own conclusions, but the answers you're looking for should be found there. Most being "recommendations" for the GM in managing the force... Like I said, it's the devs talking about it.

Hope it helps,

Ok everyone, Let's all take a deep breath...In...Out...In...out...there we should all feel a little better now. Are people making assumptions about my game and topic and first couple of posts here? Sure, but it is no big deal. Of course everyone understands that you can't put every detail about a session in to on online posting, so they kind of have to fill in the gaps, and that doesn't bug me. From the first posting I had people telling me to pull out the big time Hunters, Inquisitors even Vader. I have tried to explain that if I wanted the character dead, any of of them, I could do it easily do it. That is not what I want to do. The only thing here that gets my blood boiling is when I hear the argument

"You know how long and how hard it is to build a good Force User in this game"

No I don't. I know nothing of Star Wars, this game, or anything. Please explain it to me again...

You know how long and how hard it is to build a dream character of any vein? The same F^%$ing time!!!

So please as we continue down this thread, please do not tell me how hard or how much it costs a Force user to play/build his character. I will shut you down publicly. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Now I would like to ask Aservan a question

If you are trying to disarm someone with a weapon in hand that is an attack. Grabing a single object and prying it loose is definitely fine manipulation as well. Else you'd just tear his arm off. You get to make opposed Discipline vs Brawn. Don't have that much XP? Tough boogies.

Great leaders help their people do great things. I don't see being a GM any differently. Great GMs help players do great things. Not by making it easy, but by making it hard and letting you win anyway.

Can you please refer the page number you get this information from? Where does it say anyone gets an opposed roll to resist Move? I have already stated in my thread that I do not wish to discuss House Rules. This is a RAW force user topic. I also understand what was said on the Order 66 podcasts. While great ideas, even from the writers of this book, it is not in the book.

I'm not sure if you are trying to call me out in this second part of the quote, but I would like to refer you to the Thread by Ahrimon "Forced Vision".

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/99902-forced-vision/

There you can find a lot of my thoughts and feeling of being a leader and GM, and can also shed a lot of light on this thread.

Just FYI, my group stands at about 250-300 XP each right now. That is including the starting XP. This PC is 260.

When I started my character in the game I play in. I was able to start with FSEx and the basic sense power, and that was with buying my obligation up. I started with three characteristics at three. "Oh you spent 50xp just getting access to your two force sensitive specializations, that's cute... that same thing only cost me twenty!" Once again unbalanced. Same reason I don't see jedi being a starting career in F&D. It'd just be too unbalanced, and it doesn't fit the setting in anyway. This isn't the old republic, this isn't prequel or new jedi era, this is the rebellion, and force sensitives are hunted relentlessly.

I fail to see any real benefit to buying both the Force Exile and Emergent at stating level. But as Universal Specs, it will be the same cost as another player buying two more Career Specs. So if he only spent 20, he didn't get the same thing as you, he only got one Spec, so it is not the same thing.

Maybe this is a semantic argument, but I don't see how this guy is in anyway a power gamer.

Perhaps you missed an earlier posting where I had mentioned the player told me he does not move when using the force and that he is a gray force user, so doing a light side act will cancel out a dark side act that he did earlier. So he is basically getting all these great benefits, and none of the repercussions. In combat, since he is not using a weapon or "attacking" people, he sees himself as not threat and therefore should not be targeted in combat. After he pulled a gun from a guard, pointed it another guard, told everyone to drop it, he got shot anyway, he was really pissed. He told me that from then on out, he will no longer try to persuade, or hide, he will just attack and throw people around if they are that scared of force users. It de-evolved in to a really stupid argument after the game ended. He also brought up so much EU crap, that when I said I don't follow it, (Like Starkiller and his Uber powers, Gray jedi), he got pretty mad and said that his character would have been a lot different. I guess as in not a power character. So while maybe semantics, so far his attitude and style is consistent with that of a so called typical power gamer. I am not saying he is a bad person or even a bad gamer, he has brought us a lot of laughs, and good ideas to the table to. If I didn't enjoy the player at my table, I would not have even started this thread, he would have been removed from my table. Thanks.

Edit: Yes, I am going to rule that using most of the Force takes gestures to use them, especially move.

Maybe this is a semantic argument, but I don't see how this guy is in anyway a power gamer.

Perhaps you missed an earlier posting where I had mentioned the player told me he does not move when using the force and that he is a gray force user, so doing a light side act will cancel out a dark side act that he did earlier. So he is basically getting all these great benefits, and none of the repercussions.

Isn't this whole idea of Grey... wait what? This isn't middle-earth. The one, stressed example of a force user riding the line, that we have is Solo, and he turned out a Darth. So, it's not like it worked. Either way, this is on you, it's your game, but no way would I allow it.

In addition, I can promise you any EU that dealt with the future of the Solo's/Skywalkers/Kenobis, or any other character is going to be scrapped. 1) if they keep it, they give away the movies... and 2) they limit the scope of what they can do and where they can go with the movies. It's not happening! So, that would negate the whole Grey argument.

5) If he refuses to use a conduit to focus the force such as hand motions add Setbacks to his checks or make him suffer strain from the taxing nature of trying to tap into the force without proper training using only the power of his mind while standing stiff as a board in combat with blaster bolts firing everywhere.

A funny though just crossed my mind. Ever found yourself unknowingly lipsyncing to a song you're hearing, or notice when someone makes subtle body and eye movements during a conversation. I've studied body language and non-verbal communication, and know that this happens all the time. Perhaps the character just thinks he isn't gesturing. Even if he could completely control his movements and refrain from making wild hand gestures, a master interrogator (and anyone else with a knowledge of what to look for) would still be able to notice ticks and gestures as he uses the Force. He's certainly going to be looking at his target, but he might also quickly lean in or jerk his limbs at the same moment when crap is flying around. It wouldn't be tough to connect the tells to the unexpected phenomena that's occurring.

So yeah. He can say he's staying perfectly still all he wants, but his body language is going to betray him and he's going to be making involuntary and uncontrollable gestures. One of those "what you think is happening, what other's think is happening, what is actually happening" situations.

Suppressing tells sounds like what the Cool skill is meant cover.

Um, yeah...there are no gray force users. There are different ideologies about the force, different schools, not all force users were Jedi. But the ones that tried to walk the line of light and dark all eventually failed. They either turned to the Dark Side, or saw the errors of their ways, and returned to the light.

I feel murdering a fellow Human Being is inherently evil. It does not matter what my society thinks. It does not matter if I do it for sport, entertainment, or to my god, killing another human being is evil. (this has no bearing on Capital Punishment, please let's not talk about that here) I will eventually become so cold and callous that i will look at fellow humans as cattle. I may not try to take over the world, but I can still be evil. (I think it is funny in the EU, all evil people want to rule the Galaxy)

So if I'm in a school that teaches this light and dark philosophy, to them they might not think the are going to become evil, but it will happen. The Force does not take into account of your school of thought, it matters on how you use it.

Now, how would a young Force user in this time frame, really know about these "gray Jedi"?

But Sham, when he mentioned it to me after the session, I was like Woah, wait, Dafuq did I just hear? Um...No. Sorry, this is not a Yes, but... This is a no.

I agree that much of the EU as we know it is going to get put in the trash where it belongs. On the Fett Armor thread, all this talk about Mandalorian Sock Trooper, all these different Mando armors.

That because Boba Fett had these hidden gadgets in his armor, all mandalorians must have them too. Jango Fett was a leader mandos before...Um, no he was just a great bounty hunter. Yep, all this is getting scrapped I bet. The Clone Wars has already shot down the idea of Jango being the Mandalore at one time. Almec blatantly says he was just a common Bounty Hunter who happened to come across the armor.

Sorry for my ranting...

Um, yeah...there are no gray force users. There are different ideologies about the force, different schools, not all force users were Jedi. But the ones that tried to walk the line of light and dark all eventually failed. They either turned to the Dark Side, or saw the errors of their ways, and returned to the light.

I feel murdering a fellow Human Being is inherently evil. It does not matter what my society thinks. It does not matter if I do it for sport, entertainment, or to my god, killing another human being is evil. (this has no bearing on Capital Punishment, please let's not talk about that here) I will eventually become so cold and callous that i will look at fellow humans as cattle. I may not try to take over the world, but I can still be evil. (I think it is funny in the EU, all evil people want to rule the Galaxy)

So if I'm in a school that teaches this light and dark philosophy, to them they might not think the are going to become evil, but it will happen. The Force does not take into account of your school of thought, it matters on how you use it.

Now, how would a young Force user in this time frame, really know about these "gray Jedi"?

I think it's definitly a believe you can have. Don't forget that Force Sensitives are not trained in the ways of the Force - that includes the teachings of the Jedi. So in my mind, it's absolutely okay if a person with newly discovered Force powers would think along the lines of "Yeha, okay, balance and such. I've heard that somewhere in old fairy tales. So, uh, I guess that means that in order for the Force to work on me, I need to do both good and evil deeds".

While that is not a notion most people would share, it is a valid one. And I would allow the player to try to follow it. HOWEVER, if I were the GM, I would subtley tempt him with the dark side. Both within the game and without. Things like:

* Hey, why don't you flip the destiny point for the dark side pip? No harm done.

* This guy over there at the counter REALLY seems to not like you. Why don't you just slam his face on the counter and get your discount? Or maybe even some free stuff? You're due for an "evil act" anyways

* Okay, so while *technically* slamming that dude's face in was evil, it definitly doesn't yet outweigh the one time you saved your two comrades. It would probably bring more balance to the Force if you made sure this beggar over there stops hassling you for money. Forever.

With this, I would subtley have the Dark Side reach out for him. The aim should be to justify more and more evil and more evil acts from both a story-telling but also (and that's very important!) from an outside (metagaming) point of view. Don't just trick the character - trick the player!

And then, once he's killed enough people and (hopefully) been abandoned by all his other friends, have an Inquisitor show up. Show him what he's done. Offer him to take him into tutelage - show him how to hone his skills to "better the galaxy".

Make sure, his road to hell is paved by his (character's AND player's) good intentions. Then, in the end, when it's too late - the Dark Side can reveal itself and he can see how far he has fallen - with no redemption at all.

Um, yeah...there are no gray force users. There are different ideologies about the force, different schools, not all force users were Jedi. But the ones that tried to walk the line of light and dark all eventually failed. They either turned to the Dark Side, or saw the errors of their ways, and returned to the light.

I feel murdering a fellow Human Being is inherently evil. It does not matter what my society thinks. It does not matter if I do it for sport, entertainment, or to my god, killing another human being is evil. (this has no bearing on Capital Punishment, please let's not talk about that here) I will eventually become so cold and callous that i will look at fellow humans as cattle. I may not try to take over the world, but I can still be evil. (I think it is funny in the EU, all evil people want to rule the Galaxy)

So if I'm in a school that teaches this light and dark philosophy, to them they might not think the are going to become evil, but it will happen. The Force does not take into account of your school of thought, it matters on how you use it.

Now, how would a young Force user in this time frame, really know about these "gray Jedi"?

But Sham, when he mentioned it to me after the session, I was like Woah, wait, Dafuq did I just hear? Um...No. Sorry, this is not a Yes, but... This is a no.

I agree that much of the EU as we know it is going to get put in the trash where it belongs. On the Fett Armor thread, all this talk about Mandalorian Sock Trooper, all these different Mando armors.

That because Boba Fett had these hidden gadgets in his armor, all mandalorians must have them too. Jango Fett was a leader mandos before...Um, no he was just a great bounty hunter. Yep, all this is getting scrapped I bet. The Clone Wars has already shot down the idea of Jango being the Mandalore at one time. Almec blatantly says he was just a common Bounty Hunter who happened to come across the armor.

Sorry for my ranting...

Rant on brother...

Keep it with what you're comfortable with. The game books take place in a very specific time period, most likely because its a safe zone... we know it's official. We happen to have no small amount of "official product" that actually covers that time period, or leads up to it. (5, soon to be 6, series of the clone wars), and the movies. If it falls outside of that... it's "your world". Heck there is someone on the boards running a game with the Jedi all gung-ho, the emperor dead before his plan took off, etc... That's on them. But you're gonna confuse the crap out of everyone else at the table unless you explain this in a good amount of detail.

As to the mandos, I'm currently reading the clone novels, and Tarviss (the author) seems to have a hard one for them (mandos). As I get it Jago was a mando, then went BH, then went clone daddy. Boba was never a mando as they were disbanded prior to his coming about, and any training he got from Jango would have been almost mute considering the age it stopped at. He's a punk anyway, what did he actually do in the movies? Take credit for Vader's capture and die in perhaps the most embarrassing way possible. Heck he never even hit anyone with a shot... If that's mando, I'll take the gungan's in that fight.

What it all comes down to, is what you're comfortable with. If your force user seems to be taking too much, too easy... then use that podcast above and implement some of the changes suggested. It's completely logical... I use it.

Actually, your force user should be dead! Running around in combat saying they won't shoot at me because I'm not armed.... Really? Who does he think he is fighting? Jedi?

The Imps don't give a crap if you're armed... Uncle Owen, Alderaan, etc... for examples. Jabba's men (or any criminals) aren't going to think twice about popping your head off. Heck, there is a shoot out and you're in the middle of it (have to be, not enough force points to activate from that range), if nothing else, you're easy pockets to loot.

Um, yeah...there are no gray force users. There are different ideologies about the force, different schools, not all force users were Jedi. But the ones that tried to walk the line of light and dark all eventually failed. They either turned to the Dark Side, or saw the errors of their ways, and returned to the light.

I feel murdering a fellow Human Being is inherently evil. It does not matter what my society thinks. It does not matter if I do it for sport, entertainment, or to my god, killing another human being is evil. (this has no bearing on Capital Punishment, please let's not talk about that here) I will eventually become so cold and callous that i will look at fellow humans as cattle. I may not try to take over the world, but I can still be evil. (I think it is funny in the EU, all evil people want to rule the Galaxy)

So if I'm in a school that teaches this light and dark philosophy, to them they might not think the are going to become evil, but it will happen. The Force does not take into account of your school of thought, it matters on how you use it.

Now, how would a young Force user in this time frame, really know about these "gray Jedi"?

I think it's definitly a believe you can have. Don't forget that Force Sensitives are not trained in the ways of the Force - that includes the teachings of the Jedi. So in my mind, it's absolutely okay if a person with newly discovered Force powers would think along the lines of "Yeha, okay, balance and such. I've heard that somewhere in old fairy tales. So, uh, I guess that means that in order for the Force to work on me, I need to do both good and evil deeds".

While that is not a notion most people would share, it is a valid one. And I would allow the player to try to follow it. HOWEVER, if I were the GM, I would subtley tempt him with the dark side. Both within the game and without. Things like:

* Hey, why don't you flip the destiny point for the dark side pip? No harm done.

* This guy over there at the counter REALLY seems to not like you. Why don't you just slam his face on the counter and get your discount? Or maybe even some free stuff? You're due for an "evil act" anyways

* Okay, so while *technically* slamming that dude's face in was evil, it definitly doesn't yet outweigh the one time you saved your two comrades. It would probably bring more balance to the Force if you made sure this beggar over there stops hassling you for money. Forever.

With this, I would subtley have the Dark Side reach out for him. The aim should be to justify more and more evil and more evil acts from both a story-telling but also (and that's very important!) from an outside (metagaming) point of view. Don't just trick the character - trick the player!

And then, once he's killed enough people and (hopefully) been abandoned by all his other friends, have an Inquisitor show up. Show him what he's done. Offer him to take him into tutelage - show him how to hone his skills to "better the galaxy".

Make sure, his road to hell is paved by his (character's AND player's) good intentions. Then, in the end, when it's too late - the Dark Side can reveal itself and he can see how far he has fallen - with no redemption at all.

Exactly! I didn't mean to say they couldn't "think" this way... I got the impression that the player was trying to badger the GM with this was a thing.

I was trying to say they don't "really" exist. (not really sure where R2 was on star wars knowledge).

Good call, Mike!

Ok everyone, Let's all take a deep breath...In...Out...In...out...there we should all feel a little better now. Are people making assumptions about my game and topic and first couple of posts here? Sure, but it is no big deal. Of course everyone understands that you can't put every detail about a session in to on online posting, so they kind of have to fill in the gaps, and that doesn't bug me. From the first posting I had people telling me to pull out the big time Hunters, Inquisitors even Vader. I have tried to explain that if I wanted the character dead, any of of them, I could do it easily do it. That is not what I want to do. The only thing here that gets my blood boiling is when I hear the argument

"You know how long and how hard it is to build a good Force User in this game"

No I don't. I know nothing of Star Wars, this game, or anything. Please explain it to me again...

You know how long and how hard it is to build a dream character of any vein? The same F^%$ing time!!!

So please as we continue down this thread, please do not tell me how hard or how much it costs a Force user to play/build his character. I will shut you down publicly. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Now I would like to ask Aservan a question

If you are trying to disarm someone with a weapon in hand that is an attack. Grabing a single object and prying it loose is definitely fine manipulation as well. Else you'd just tear his arm off. You get to make opposed Discipline vs Brawn. Don't have that much XP? Tough boogies.

Great leaders help their people do great things. I don't see being a GM any differently. Great GMs help players do great things. Not by making it easy, but by making it hard and letting you win anyway.

Can you please refer the page number you get this information from? Where does it say anyone gets an opposed roll to resist Move? I have already stated in my thread that I do not wish to discuss House Rules. This is a RAW force user topic. I also understand what was said on the Order 66 podcasts. While great ideas, even from the writers of this book, it is not in the book.

I'm not sure if you are trying to call me out in this second part of the quote, but I would like to refer you to the Thread by Ahrimon "Forced Vision".

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/99902-forced-vision/

There you can find a lot of my thoughts and feeling of being a leader and GM, and can also shed a lot of light on this thread.

Just FYI, my group stands at about 250-300 XP each right now. That is including the starting XP. This PC is 260.

When I started my character in the game I play in. I was able to start with FSEx and the basic sense power, and that was with buying my obligation up. I started with three characteristics at three. "Oh you spent 50xp just getting access to your two force sensitive specializations, that's cute... that same thing only cost me twenty!" Once again unbalanced. Same reason I don't see jedi being a starting career in F&D. It'd just be too unbalanced, and it doesn't fit the setting in anyway. This isn't the old republic, this isn't prequel or new jedi era, this is the rebellion, and force sensitives are hunted relentlessly.

I fail to see any real benefit to buying both the Force Exile and Emergent at stating level. But as Universal Specs, it will be the same cost as another player buying two more Career Specs. So if he only spent 20, he didn't get the same thing as you, he only got one Spec, so it is not the same thing.

What I meant was, staying force focused costs 50xp just to access the specializations to be able to get to a force ranking three. Allowing a character to start as a force sensitive as a career, no matter the character, means at minimum they are basically given 20 free xp, since they are all universal specializations, and at minimum are your second specialization. So what costs me 50 xp, access to two trees with force rating plus, would cost the type of character, someone that can start full blown, I'm the new Starkiller, smash planets together jedi! that so many people seem to be expecting out of F&D, would only cost 20 cause they would start with a gain force rating one specialization with a force rating at the end, and a 10k R10 weapon, cause hey their "jedi's"..

I didn't buy both at the start, that would be stupid. I just bought access to emergent a week ago, and that's with 365 total xp. 110 xp for human, 90 xp to bring agility, willpower, and presence to 3, 20 xp for force sensitive exile, bought obligation up 10, got sense basic power. That was it, brand new starting "jedi" right there, and with all my starting credits started with heavy clothing, a blaster pistol, and a combat knife. Plus some general gear. Oh yeah, fear that big powerful jedi that can maybe, hopefully, if he can calm himself enough (ie. not roll black pips) sense if there are living things in short range.

Didn't get to start with the most powerful weapon in the system, didn't get to start with any ranks, or even access in skill to use said weapon. Just recently got a lightsaber about the time of buying emergent... and the 1 rank so far, cost 50xp on its own.

As for you player you don't have to kill him, there's really no point in it anyway. He's at the point, the empire would be more interested in having him work for them, cause he's a dark jedi. All he does is use the force to solve his problems, and its always needlessly violent. He's all about the quick, easy power the force offers hims, and you can't deny this, purely by the way you've described his character. And he doesn't really sound like the type of player that is capable/willing to roleplay what is happening to him, his fall into darkness. He just wants to be the new Starkiller, smash planets together jedi! And all he's doing is fighting you the whole way with this. His whole grey jedi doesn't work like he thinks it does, even within the EU.

Isn't this whole idea of Grey... wait what? This isn't middle-earth. The one, stressed example of a force user riding the line, that we have is Solo, and he turned out a Darth. So, it's not like it worked. Either way, this is on you, it's your game, but no way would I allow it.

In addition, I can promise you any EU that dealt with the future of the Solo's/Skywalkers/Kenobis, or any other character is going to be scrapped. 1) if they keep it, they give away the movies... and 2) they limit the scope of what they can do and where they can go with the movies. It's not happening! So, that would negate the whole Grey argument.

Qwi Gon didn't ride the line?

He used the Force to try to steal from Watto, cheated in a legitimate bet, get a Bonga from the Gungans (which he didn't return). Qwi Gon is the type of guy for whom the ends justify the means. He's is doing "bad" for a "greater good". That's definitely a grey area to me.

What about Bindo? The Exile? Revan?

While being mostly "Light" those folks are not perfectly one or the other. That's the point though. The Force isn't just black and white. It just exists. It's the energy between the rock and the tree. By itself, it's absolutely neutral. You've got people using it who are just people. A few are good, a few are evil, most are somewhere inbetween.

Jedi aren't allowed to cheat or break the law?

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)

There is no death, there is the Force.

Qwi Gon didn't break the code, or even skirt it. He served the Light every step of the way - I don't think he's Grey.

I think there's one or two Grey Jedi in the KotOR games, so whoever counts those as canon for their games should probably accept Grey Jedi as valid.

Qui-Gon was not a grey jedi.

Cheating at a game that is already rigged for you to loose, is not really cheating is it?

To save "The Chosen one" from slavery? if that is evil, then sign me up! I'm sorry Dbuntu, but I think you have skewed sense of right wrong here. To secure passage from a Gungun overloard to save a planet?

Not one of these examples is Qui-Gon using the Dark side of the force, or even morally ambiguous. Now if he was in a cantina using the force to cheat and earn a profit for himself, that is something different.

Qui-Gon was a grey Jedi in the sense that he turned away from the Jedi Council. He didn't turn away from the teaching of the Jedi, but he went against the Council many times, and some branded him. Grey Jedi for it.

In the EU lore, there were many that tried to find that balance between light and dark, but there is none, Jolee Bindo fell to the dark side, only to be turned back by Revan with amnesia. Reven never tried to control both, he became a Sith. The jensaari, that is such a joke, it does not even deserve further comment. In all examples of those that tried to control both the Light and Dark, eveventually loose control. So while grey jedi do exist, they don't exist for long. The dark side seeks to control, destroy, consume.

What's wrong with the Jensaari?

They peed on me when drunk.

The Jensaari don't even deserve mention. Sorry that's it.

Hey Shamrock, keep reading those if you want to, but know that it is all wiped out by the Clone Wars cartoon, or will be soon wiped away by Leeland Chee, keeper of the holocron, and the Jensaari as well. For a taste of the author and her views on Jedi, read this. It may change your mind about continuing reading her books. If not, I hope you enjoy them and get a lot it of them. Now, buckle your seatbelts, you're going for a ride on the crazy train.

http://www.karentraviss.com/page10/files/Is_it_true_you_hate_Jedi_.html

What's wrong with the Jensaari?

Could you give us a quick update what exactly they do? I skimmed Wookiepedia, and they seem like a Mary Sue organization, Stackpole dreamed up (Getting mentioned first in "I, Jedi").

They pee on people when they get drunk. Enough reason for me not too like them.

They peed on me when drunk.

Were they drunk or were you?

You might have only yourself to blame

Were they drunk or were you?

You might have only yourself to blame

'little from column A, little from column B.

We don't hang out anymore.

I've always liked the Jensarri, but I only know what's in the Saga edition books. I also like the Ang tii monks or however you spell it. Holistic view of the force and organic technology, pretty cool IMO.

I guess I've always had a different view of what a grey jedi is. It seems like most people define it as someone who does both evil and good to keep a balance. I had looked at it just as someone who doesn't follow the jedi code but can still do good. I'll have to remember that when posting.

The Jensaari don't even deserve mention. Sorry that's it.

Hey Shamrock, keep reading those if you want to, but know that it is all wiped out by the Clone Wars cartoon, or will be soon wiped away by Leeland Chee, keeper of the holocron, and the Jensaari as well. For a taste of the author and her views on Jedi, read this. It may change your mind about continuing reading her books. If not, I hope you enjoy them and get a lot it of them. Now, buckle your seatbelts, you're going for a ride on the crazy train.

http://www.karentraviss.com/page10/files/Is_it_true_you_hate_Jedi_.html

So I've owned the Republic Commando books for a while now, but just haven't gotten around to finishing them for one reason or another. This response from her actually makes me want to make time to finish the books. Partly because I agree with her on some points, and partly because I'm really curious what she's writing in the books makes people dislike them and making people question if she hates Jedi.

So I've owned the Republic Commando books for a while now, but just haven't gotten around to finishing them for one reason or another. This response from her actually makes me want to make time to finish the books. Partly because I agree with her on some points, and partly because I'm really curious what she's writing in the books makes people dislike them and making people question if she hates Jedi.

The first one was okay, but the rest are trash. Nothing to do with how she sees Jedi, heck I agree with her about some of that. But the books are booooooring. And in any case, she makes the same mistake with her Mandalorians that she is accusing other people of making with Jedi. Ironic.