Background:

Ok, so of I have a 5 player group, kind of fringe, not law abiding, but not too evil, although that is a dangerous area, and what one person thinks is evil-ish, others can try to argue. But that is not the point here.

I have a slicer/force emergent. The player has decided that he does not like the slicer tree (nor do I really), and wants to go full on force user. He already can move the BBEG around from long range, and just toss enemies off a bridge.

The Force Die has a less than 50% chance to roll light side points, so in combat he just kind of stands there for a few rounds then finally gets to use his force abilities. (I had once thought to allow him another action if his Force use failed, but, nope). When they activate, they are powerful actions, disarm, lifting and turning people, tossing them off a bridge thing... But wow, for the most part pretty anti-climatic. Also, how would you feel if you are in a firefight and a team mate just stands there...(the player says he doesn't use the Movie hand gestures, and does not move to use the force...)

So anyway, like with any game, the more powerful you get, so do the bad guys, and they also get smarter too. Well I told him that after a certain point in his Force advancement, he will no longer be able to teach himself, and will have to find a teacher or holocron. He said whatever, I'll just save all my XP until I find one then use it.

Ok, I really did not like that answer or attitude. Now, I will the be first one to admit it, I'm old, and stuck in my ways. But this really struck me the wrong way.

Now I don't want to force my players into a path they don't want to go, but at the same time, I don't want a crazy force user who can control anyone's mind, choke (he has done it yet, but next adventure probably will try it), lift, throw them around or activate a grenade on a belt all the time. I had really hoped that he would build up two or three specs at the same time, and that was his original plan, but he decided against it now) Even though the powers don't activate all the time, this can "ruin" a big scene, and change things quickly. I know if I feel he gets too crazy, I can just bring the big bad bounty hunter and wipe him, but that feels wrong to me.

He is pretty adamant that his goal is too never use a gun in this campaign. And is pretty adamant about not going with another tree, and will just save his XP.

So after a long post and rant, I'm just looking for others thoughts and insight.

So am I right in thinking that a self taught force can only teach himself so much? Should I just let him keep going? How do you guys handle a rather powerful force user in your game? Players, what would be your characters take on a dude that just stands there the majority of the time, then weird **** happens? Thanks.

Even without light side points you can spend a Destiny point to use dark side ones. It's an elegant mechanic and there's no other penalty. No need for him to stand around doing nothing. As GM, I make sure our FSEx always has Destiny points by using them myself. That way, the temptation of the dark side (such as it is!) is always there.

Secondly, it seems a bit harsh not letting him develop his abilities without training. Not developing your main career and buying the Force abilities and Exile talent tree is a perfectly valid character path.

How much training any character needs is up to you as GM. I don't let any character multi-class outside their specialisation without a really life-changing event. And I don't allow anyone to take Emergent without joining the Alliance, as in my game that represents the Project Emergent training only Alliance characters get.

I like the way the Force is powerful - but balanced - in the game. Our Exile is very potent, but with Brawn 2 and no armour she can get one-shotted by a lucky stormtrooper. She's supposed to be a 'glass cannon' and the rules thus far have supported this.

Finally, Force-use is supposed to be countered by having the Empire trying to hunt down any Force-sensitive (even in my game where Order 66 failed spectacularly!), so there are good role-playing reasons why a Force user would rein it in. The Exile career is meant to represent a subtle survivor, hunted and always on the run.

If he wanted to take that attitude? I'd say "fine, but don't expect the opponents to remain weak, or overlook you" - this player said initially that he planned on branching out, and now he's done a 180 on you (not a terrible thing at all, but since he knows of your concerns and is taking this response...).

Eventually, he'll realise that not spending his XP on useful talents and skills is going to cause him major problems - and if he's got any common sense, he'll budge on his stance.

What did you feel would be a more reasonable response when you told the player he wouldn't be able to learn things without finding a teacher?

Wouldn't the natural response be to save the XP until a teacher is found and spend it then?

It's not unreasonable, no - but if he decided to do that purely because he disliked the GM decision (which, based upon the wording used and the way the post reads, he did) - then that causes problems.

A player might bank most of their XP for future purchases, but will spend the odd 5-10 in order to get valuable skills and talents when needed - which, in turn, will help them survive the growing dangers and threats. An unreasonable player will likely ignore doing this, using the metagame reasoning of "the GM won't kill off a PC in these circumstances, so he won't throw all these big threats at me - this means I can safely wait until the teacher shows up, and then throw EVERYTHING at those Force purchases."

Well, after he told me about his character concept, slicer/ force user I was pretty excited. It sounded like a great idea. He first complained that the group wasn't getting enough XP, and would never be able to advance his character like he wanted. They whole group felt that the XP rewards were low. I up the XP rewards, now the Forcer player is just spending all the XP on force abilities. He is really shooting for that second force die now. I understand that players views change and original concepts change, but now I feel this just becoming power gaming. The only actions he takes are using Move. Literally, I mean it, no joke. I activate move. I activate move. I activate move... So pretty boring. I brought this up and his counter was the politico always uses Scathing Tirade. At least he actually role plays out the tirade, saying stuff to the NPC enemies, then dealing 2-4 points of strain/wound damage to 3-4 guys usually.

Anyway, in the movies and books, force users reach a certain point then need a teacher. Why is doing that in the RPG bad?

I don't want to have the mentality that I need to "counter" this player, but I'm used to force users that have a limit to how many times they can do stuff, so they don't become that one trick pony. This system, there is no limit. But I don't want to have encounters planned out, he rolls in, activates a couple of grenades, throws a dude around and lifts up the BBEG, and that's it.

Also I didn't say he can't advance now, I told there will come a point at which he has thought himself everything he can and will need a teacher.

So anyway, I'm guess I'm just whining and looking for a little help. I want to keep the game fun and interesting, but it feels like it is starting to get to that player vs GM stage, which I hate. I want to keep things challenging and interesting.

I do scathing tirade...RPing it out, rolls dice pools, has triumph, advantages, threats, the whole nine yards. Feels awesome

I shoot at the enemy...same as above. Feels awesome. (Had a guy take out four minions in one shot, awesome roll!!)

I use move object. Pass or fail. Feels really bland to me. Activates it and lifts a guy off a bridge and drops him. Feels wrong to me to have a force user do that.

I don't know, am I just being too old and stubborn?

Could always send a Force user at him and do the same things. Then, when he is dangling over the side of a bridge, he may have wished that he had spent his XP on other things and was more subtle in his usage of the force.

Good reminder is that anytime he uses force powers in the open, consider if anyone is left alive after the encounter or if it's an area with undamaged security cameras - constant use will draw attention sooner or later, and that's going to lead to reports being sent to the empire. At which point, either immediately after the session is done and whatever person gets away or they leave and don't bother with the security cameras, feel free to notify him that he now has a criminal obligation for being a force user.

I wouldn't really limit them on spending experience until they found a teacher/ jedi training manual/holocron. While it does sort of make sense from a narrative point of view for powers that may not come more naturally (Sense, Foresee, and Enhance vs. Move & Influence), really any power could manifest for an untrained force user from a situation where it needs it (trying to grab something just out of reach that they desperately need, trying to convince a guard you're somebody you're not). And once you experience and acknowledge the power once, it's only a matter of time and effort until you can master it. With force dice representing a person's ability to understand and use the force to more easily access these powers when they need it - again, something that comes with time and practice, and doesn't strictly require any sort of instruction.

For the whole move every turn thing. Again, public spaces and cameras will hopefully teach him to use it slightly more sparingly. But if it's really an issue to the players & their characters, they should have their characters confront the force user about it. Otherwise, if the player wants to have fun sitting around doing nothing half of his turns, let him.

While nothing can really be done for just moving an enemy off of a cliff, if he tried to use move to throw objects as a weapon, remember that it requires a discipline check and can use the auto-fire rules. It isn't much, but since it is used as an attack, it should fall under adversary rules and be subject to ranged defense. Sooner or later a despair will pop up, and that's when that object he tossed turns out to be an explosive that shoots some shrapnel back at him.

Thanks, you bring up some good points. But the player insists that he uses the Force without moving...

So that can leave no trace of him being a Force user. I guess in the EU force users can do this. He brought up Star Killer sitting and moving stuff? I'm not big into the EU as I feel it is written by hacks, and fellow GMs trying to showcase of their characters. And there is so much inconsistency in it. I cannot think one one time in the Movies when a Force User does not use a gesture to use the Force. He argued that is was just for the movie audience. And that if I was going to not follow "canon" then he would not have played a Force User. He also said that he as a player never made the motions of using the force like in the movies. I got a kick out of that. My players also don't hold up their hands like they are shooting a gun, (ok,well sometimes), or put their hands on imaginary starships controls and show they are piloting.

I guess I just find the character boring, and half the time ineffective in combat, since he will not use weapon...

I have tried to talk to the player but he seems unwilling to compromise, I already stated above, we had an agreement on the original concept, now he changed it, which is his right. But after expressing my concerns, he said he will not change his plan. So he wants to be a super secret gray force user, because according to him a dark and a light act cancel each other out, and no can tell he is using the force, so he can ever be detected. I feel that now we went from a cool and fun character, he has went to a boring one sided power character. So I guess in the long run, it is really just a problem with the player that I will have to resolve. Either I will have to come on board and let him do, or as Ahrimon talks about in his thread, Forcing My Vision on this player and character. So do I have the blinders on? And just being a Summer's Eve?

So... Does he just stand off to the side somewhere like a plank of wood, or does he do a whack-a-mole thing where he pops up every so often from behind cover to try his powers? Regardless, you can still throw in obligation. Sure, that random person who saw objects flying around could've be just crazy, or maybe the security camera just didn't catch the force user, but the group could still be under investigation - so you just give +5 Criminal as a general obligation that the group has, either individually (5 each) or just as a set amount that applies to the group as a whole (5 total). More people seeing this same group or more security evidence, that obligation increases, maybe it decreases for certain players (ones knocked out or not in the room when the objects start flying, or otherwise completely busy and very unlikely to be using something that requires focus). Regardless, some guy running with the group and seemingly doing nothing, or the objects start moving whenever he pops out from cover will eventually be found out as the force user. It won't take a detective in the Imperial navy to figure out what's sticking out.

And if you want to keep the criminal obligation on the force user, you can, or if you want to give it to the whole group since they're running around with one, you can.

I could be wrong since I know almost nothing about the EU, but in my eyes, the movements associated with force powers is a way of increasing focus on the task and feel what they were doing. Vader choking a guy, Yoda lifting the X-Wing - them using the force to feel and move things. I wouldn't call it unreasonable to throw some setback on the dice rolls for if he decides to use the objects as a weapon part of the power since he needs to divide his focus to make sure he does make any movements.

Also, I'd classify most force sensitive exiles/emergents who aren't actively trying to do anything bad (kill random people) or good (bring peace and order everywhere they go) as grey - they're just people trying to survive, earn credits, and do whatever seems right at the time. But dark and light acts canceling each other out? Eghhh. If you wanted to be picky with him, you could keep track of what he does. Then knock him over to a dark side/ light side jedi if you feel it appropriate, and give whatever bonuses or penalties as you'd like.

Yeah, I'm going to try to resolve this with him before the next session. And yes he just stands there, not even in cover, thinking he is safe because he is not attacking the baddies and has no weapons out. Now in yesterday's adventure they raided a small imperial comm station where a imperial bounty hunter took his prey. Well, after being railroaded into fighting, they blasted the few imps, and met the hunter. The force player had lifted him up and turned him around so he couldn't shoot the group. After thermal detonator negotiations, they all agreed to leave in peace. The hunter even made a derogatory Jedi comment to him. They let him walk out, but blew up the station and 20 imperial comm guys in it to cover their tracks!? So yeah, I'm thinking some more obligation is coming.

I am hoping to have the player come in line with my ideas of Rebellion era Force Users, without being a total d$&k. I want to have fun at my table, tell some (hopefully) good stories, have exciting cinematic fights, and just try to have a good time. Having a guy that does nothing but move object is not really very epic to me...

He keeps using the Force openly like that, particularly the dark side so blatantly, you should pay the whole group a visit by folks working for Vader and the Emperor. When the rest of the group gets tired of their butts being kicked and their favorite stuff blown up they might collectively encourage him to multi task a bit. The whole not waving his hands may fool the rubes but not Vader and the Emperor, another dark side user would stand out like a lump of coal in a pile of marshmallows to them.

It may seem like a jerk move, but I don't let my players save too much XP without giving me a really good reason, like they're saving up for a signature ability or something. In this system, I'd limit it to 30 or 40, and only if they tell me most of it's for a fifth skill rank or a top-tier (er, bottom?) talent on a tree, or maybe to buy a new Specialization and some skills to go with it. It doesn't hurt that, after third rank in a skill, they need to justify their purchase with some narrative action. (If the doctor hasn't been doing any doctoring, why would his Medicine skill get up to four?)

If they don't spend their XP, they lose it.

Whoops, double post. My bad.

As a GM, I would shut down the idea that he could always use the Force without it being possible to tell that he's the one using it.

Perhaps he can TRY that, but I'd imagine that would be a discipline all its own, the way that sleight of hand is a discipline of its own. It's possible to palm cards without anyone being able to spot how you did it, but it takes years of work. In fact you might make him roll Stealth or Skulduggery to accomplish it.

At the very least I'd make a Perception check for any nearby NPCs witnessing what he's doing. I'd say there is a feeling that's in the air when someone is using the Force, it's possible to just sense that somebody is a powerful person.

Everybody we see in the movies makes some kind of movement when they use the Force, even if it's subtle. It's well within your rights as a GM to insist that this is the case.

Hell, throw an Inquisitor or Fallen Jedi at him. They'd be able to sense his presence just by being on the same planet with him.

Even without light side points you can spend a Destiny point to use dark side ones. It's an elegant mechanic and there's no other penalty. No need for him to stand around doing nothing. As GM, I make sure our FSEx always has Destiny points by using them myself. That way, the temptation of the dark side (such as it is!) is always there.

Secondly, it seems a bit harsh not letting him develop his abilities without training. Not developing your main career and buying the Force abilities and Exile talent tree is a perfectly valid character path.

How much training any character needs is up to you as GM. I don't let any character multi-class outside their specialisation without a really life-changing event. And I don't allow anyone to take Emergent without joining the Alliance, as in my game that represents the Project Emergent training only Alliance characters get.

I like the way the Force is powerful - but balanced - in the game. Our Exile is very potent, but with Brawn 2 and no armour she can get one-shotted by a lucky stormtrooper. She's supposed to be a 'glass cannon' and the rules thus far have supported this.

Finally, Force-use is supposed to be countered by having the Empire trying to hunt down any Force-sensitive (even in my game where Order 66 failed spectacularly!), so there are good role-playing reasons why a Force user would rein it in. The Exile career is meant to represent a subtle survivor, hunted and always on the run.

Maelora, do you have a group of power gamers? You've got some pretty harsh house rules. I would hate to think that the couple of soldier talents I picked up in real life would have kept me from getting the scholar tree I have mostly filled.

I'm playing a dedicated Force user in the game my friend is running, and initially he also was making noise about my not being able to continue beyond a certain point without finding a teacher or holocron (I'm using Ways of the Force, and he was speaking not just about Force abilities, but also lightsaber talents and such). I countered his comment with, "Will any other character have to go through this sort of training?"

Consider how much XP it takes to be a competent Force user, and that they are on the short side of success most of the time, unless they're spending dark side points. Do you feel the need to balance anyone else's progress by halting their progression until they can find a teacher?

If you really want to do that for the Force user, I would (if I were GM) either drop a holocron in an adventure, or would work in a teacher of the Force in the very near future. If the player has to wait a game session or two to spend XP, that's not too bad (I'd lean more toward 1 than 2), but any longer than that and it's going to feel like they are being singled out and penalized for playing a character they want to play.

On the matter of your player's usage of the Force. First, if he's standing around doing nothing all the time, I'd expect his teammates to be giving him a lot of flack for it. Second, while we do see characters in the films using powers without really moving their hands much, in those instances the characters appear to be concentrating (eyes closed, look of focus upon their face)--I wouldn't allow someone using the Force to display zero outward sign of usage. Even if you did, though, after a while, someone should put together the guy standing around appearing to do nothing, and those objects flying around without any apparent cause. Villains will have security camera footage where they'll see one guy firing off a blaster the whole time, that guy demoralizing his foes with Scathing Tirade, and some schmoe standing in the corner while objects go flying around harming his enemies. It's not like Jedi are unheard of, their powers unknown. His over-usage of the Force should definitely bring some unwanted attention to the group in the form of Jedi-hunting Bounty Hunters or some sort of Imperial trackers. And if he really gets excessive with it, especially around Imperials, perhaps Darth Vader will show up.

Also, if he's throwing people off bridges, and slamming them into stuff, and such, it sounds to me like he's not using his power in an especially Light Side manner. The Core Rulebook leaves it open to the GM what happens when a character begins slipping to the Dark Side, but I'd start to give some thought to that if I were you, as it looks to me like that's the direction he's headed in. Does he use the dark side points on his dice at all? Is he aware that he can? If he isn't, he may be avoiding using them thinking that by not doing so he won't fall, but he should be reminded that there's more than one way for that to happen.

Finally, the player rushing down the tree to Force Rating +1 makes sense--you're fairly useless with the Force at Force Rating 1...speaking of which, how is he using Move at anything beyond short range, and to lift anything bigger than Silhouette 0? He absolutely cannot do both of those at the same time with a Force Rating of just 1--it takes 1 point to activate the power, 1 to activate the Range Upgrade, and 1 to activate the Strength Upgrade. Also, make sure to note that while you can activate the Range and Magnitude Upgrades additional times (ex. if you have 1 Range Upgrade and activate it once, you can use Move at Short or Medium range; if you then activate it again, you can use it out to Long range; if you had 2 ranks, 1 activation would get you to Long Range), but he cannot activate the Strength Upgrade additional times--you can only Move something with a Silhouette equal to or less than the number of Strength Upgrades purchased. Force Rating 2 will make things more consistent, and he'll be able to use upgrades more often, but he will still rarely be able to use 3 points at a time. From what I've seen on the boards, you should not allow him to go beyond Force Rating 3, and may want to hold him at FR 2 for a while.

In my crew the FSE is a Marauder, and he has Force Sense.

I made it a requirement that the player had to take FSE and any Force Abilities at the start, this really does limit starting capabilities for such a character. He's kinda slow developing, but his full potential is undeniable.

The issue is that Force in these RPGs is useless... It's a character enhancer. Your player is saying that he doesn't want to play a character... Not a good answer to be sure.

You might want to have a few words with him... Maybe, let him rearrange is starting Specializations? You should let him know that he will never be a useful Jedi and that he has to really bring down his expectations for the Force.

The rules are also pretty clear about turning to the Dark Side, and the inherent Role Playing issues that will bring on. They say don't do it for a reason. (Have you considered allowing this player to take his XP and make a new character? His old one could turn to the dark side and become a Nemesis...)

FYI, our 'slicer' is a thief, and that gave him all kinds interesting stuff to do, like sneak, and play 'hide the blaster'. This decision was made because he didn't like how Slicers worked. On the other hand, slicing has been a potent component in our game. Gotta have someone who's developed his computer skill.

The Slicer tree does need love, after you get Codebreaker for 5xp the rest of the tree is kinda, meh.

I just wanted to reiterate, that a player who wants to be all Force all day needs to have you simply impose the reality of that decision on them. The inquisitor/hand of the emperor should be showing up. Don't hold back either I would say. They sound far too comfortable tossing people around imo.

One more bit...the FSE is a big part of our story line. The player just doesn't know it.

Most of the crew's obligation came from his rescue from the empire.

He has force sense, so opponents need to be droids where possible because that limits his Force Sense in and out of combat.

I beat my FSE senseless wherever possible. In your case someone is bound to tweak onto this guy, and target him directly. In my case, FSE is about to meet a Dark Trooper (stats in AOR) whose sole purpose is to track and kill FSE. Eat concussion missile, and have blaster fire targeting just the FSE.

I also have a progression in mind for him built into the story line. No holocrons yet, but early Force users used Cortosis Swords before Light Sabers. I intend that when Force Sense upgrades enemy attacks, Despair Results will deflect blaster bolts back at the enemy, but you gotta have Cortosis.

One more thing. This game only works if all the players need each other. If this guy is not really contributing, you can just ignore him, and structure the adventures around the other players.

PS Remember that probably the defining characteristic of the Jedi in the films and the books is their ability to get out of impossible situations thanks to the Force. I don't know about your player, but for me that is my ultimate goal--not necessarily being able to "solve" every encounter, but being able to succeed no matter the odds or obstacles.

Just look at the barge scene in Return of the Jedi--Luke is unarmed, handcuffed, in the open, outnumbered at something like 15 to 1, and is separated from his adversary (and their biggest guns) by quite a gap...and yet he manages to pull out the win anyway. In the EU, there's a whole lot more of this kind of action.

For instance, in Specter of the Past...

At some point, even a character in this system is going to be getting to that level of ability. The balance comes from Force dice being unreliable, from the players/characters themselves having to temper their usage both to avoid falling to the Dark Side and to avoid too much Imperial attention, and then from that inevitable Imperial attention causing them some real problems, which may include killing them or their allies/loved ones.

Yeah, I have to brush up on my rules lawyering for this one I think. I don't think we are using the rules right.

Yeah, I have to brush up on my rules lawyering for this one I think. I don't think we are using the rules right.

Nothing to be ashamed of, and no surprise there. I'm a pretty good rules lawyer, and I'm constantly getting stuff wrong, and of the stuff I get right, another rules-lawyery friend of mine in the group gets it wrong half the time.

The books are laid out like ****, with rules scattered all over the place, direct references missing, and important bits buried in paragraphs. I'm enjoying the game, but I'm constantly wishing FFG would hire someone to reorganize the whole thing. It boggles the mind that they could do such a poor job with this when there are literally dozens of RPG rulebooks out there with better layout.

On top of that, some things aren't worded very clearly, and there are a lot of exceptions, or rules that stand alone.

Yeah... I think this is the best Star Wars RPG I have ran, but the book does leave a lot to be desired in the layout. Fantastic product, just bad execution.

Yeah... I think this is the best Star Wars RPG I have ran, but the book does leave a lot to be desired in the layout. Fantastic product, just bad execution.

I haven't played enough yet to be head-over-heels for this (only 3 game sessions), but I'm enjoying it. I like Saga Edition, but I started gaming with D&D 3.x, so that fit for me. Still, if my group can adapt fully to the narrative focus of this system, and pulla way from rigidly codified combat (mostly, dealing without minis and a battle mat, and keeping things flowing) a bit, I think I'll really enjoy this.

Also, I suspect that it's going to be a long time, at least relative to the other characters in the group, before I feel like my character is meeting my expectations. Being a Force user is very expensive XP-wise. If the guy in your game has felt useless some of the time, he should see me in action: I've got nothing that really works in combat so far, and can hardly do much outside of combat (lessened further by my character's reluctance to reveal himself as a Jedi either to his shipmates or anyone else just yet). The most impressive things I've done so far were putting out a fire on an enemy by using Move to activate a "sprinkler" system (the fire was started by a teammate with a flamethrower) to relieve him of his suffering, and succeeding on 2 daunting skill checks, first to Charm a Hutt, then to see through a Deception from some an assassin droid.