Hello Brothers,

I just finished the first half of my first session as GM of a death watch campaign.

So I need help and will cut to the chase.

We started with a little prologue journey that set up the extraction mission. The prologue was so I could test the combat mechanics and rules a bit. The prologue was all DW core rule book, then I found the errata before extraction and started adjusting the weapons.

For the first 2 1/2 hours we had a great time, I threw in some npcs for an extra bit of role-play and moral choices for the characters and then we got to what I planned to be the big engagement (minus the extraction engagement) as they encountered the commissar and his imperial guard in a big fight with a hormaguant horde and 2 elite warrior tyranid.

The problem: The start of the combat was engaging, but then it VERY quickly degraded into too many route (repetitive) rounds of dice rolling in which both my players (one in particular) became extremely bored. Granted one is a girl that probably prefers the role-play side of the game, even my guy was getting a little tired. She was on her **** iPhone ! xD

So my gut was telling me it was more me than them, I needed to add something to the situation that would make them engage more. For example I thought about a random ambush from behind by another tyrannid or some npc loses his mind and attacks the team.

I also was afraid to hurt my team XD

I admit it! I didn't want to hurt them lol so I'm sure that effected things. There was a lot at play here including my lack of experience. So we will play again, but i fear if we have a repeat of boredom the female won't come back.

I am looking for examples of making the combat exciting, I want my players engaged. I think I made it too easy so they didn't really have to think on their feet. dice rolls win over time. Any feedback?

Ps. does anyone thing the tech marine servo arm is op?

Thanks!

Well, what do your players/you find engaging in other RPG combats? For that matter, horde combat can get very boring easily, if you don't inject tactical situations for the players.

Nah, the Servo-Arm is good but not OP. What's your math?

Alex

I'm not sure what you mean by "what's your math?"

I don't want to try and explain the whole battle, but it basically became 1) This side attacks, role dice. 2) That side attacks, role dice. 3) repeat 1 and 2.

I know this is somewhat the nature of roleplaying games, but I think what made the first 2 1/2 hours good were that my players had to constantly think and stay engaged for what could be coming up and surprises. Also I think that combat went faster earlier in the session cause the engagements were smaller. Shorter battles didn't seem to lead to the same monotony that caused the disinterest by the players. Part of the problem I think is my lack of experience and understanding what makes a challenging engagement for my team. For example, I think they could get away with just standard attacks each round, i.e. they didn't need to use abilities like squad mode or suppression fire to stay alive. They could get away with just standard attacks over and over again. Also, there are SO many rules of combat and circumstantial rules that as a GM after 2 hours of gaming I start to get a brain fog and have a hard time tracking the many rules and qualities of the weapons. There is also a worry that I will make the situation too hard and kill the team, I read another post and was reminded of fate points and how player won't perma die because of them (at least not right away).

How do you guys keep the players thinking creatively? i.e. seeking cover because they need it and using suppressing fire etc because otherwise you will get rushed and at least take some serious wounds. How do you guys run battles? Are they faster paced? Do the enemies use crazy tactics that throw the team off? Do you make sure that there is a build up in fighting from easy battles to one really hard one where most of the team takes big damage?

No need to answer each question, I just want to hear generally how people work with combat and a situation where the player gets bored.

Thanks,

How did you 'depict' the combat for your players? Do you use a tactical map, a full tabletop-style battlefield with miniatures, or rely on purely verbal descriptions? I ask because you didn't make any mention of maneuvering in your description of how the game degenerated into repetitive dice-rolling. Without knowing more, I guess all I can say is to try to stage combats so that flexible positioning is a vital element.

Thanks for both the comments

Well, what do your players/you find engaging in other RPG combats? For that matter, horde combat can get very boring easily, if you don't inject tactical situations for the players.

Nah, the Servo-Arm is good but not OP. What's your math?

Alex

We don't have much rpg combat experience. This group played some 4th ed d and d together, maybe for a total of 4-5 sessions. For the most part people appeared engaged. I could probably ask them both, what gets your excited about combat or what do you enjoy, although I fear the woman is just not as much into the combat altogether. So for her any role-playing/story element woven into the fight I thought might help. As for the guy, my gut tells me challenge would bring him in. I imagine he wants to feel that he faced a tough challenge and overcame it.

How did you 'depict' the combat for your players? Do you use a tactical map, a full tabletop-style battlefield with miniatures, or rely on purely verbal descriptions? I ask because you didn't make any mention of maneuvering in your description of how the game degenerated into repetitive dice-rolling. Without knowing more, I guess all I can say is to try to stage combats so that flexible positioning is a vital element.

Our combat was purely verbal description. The soldiers and commissar were retreating away from the tryanid horde and oncoming 2 elite warriors. So the combat took place on open ground before they reached the cover of a building. The kill team approached the combat from the side, engaging and supporting the imperials. There really was no maneuvering, just stand in your place and shoot aside from a charge by an assault marine.

I recently threw five marines against a Bloodthirster and a dozen bloodletters. With so many wounds that could easily get into a load of rolls really fast.

The key I found for keeping combat interesting was to keep it amusing. For example:

"Ok, you have a greater daemon of Khorne, not looking overly amused. He seems to be aiming at...*GM rolls a dice*...you! *points at victim*
"Oh joy!"

"Yeah...tough luck with that."

"You don't like me do you? You have been throwing things at me all day."

"You're a librarian. He hates everything you stand for. Do you really think he WONT want to kick seven shades of...out of you?"

"Good point."
*At which point a collective mock and laugh occurred as it dawned on him*

In the end the player made a dodge away from a brutal charge of the daemon. Now technically the rules stop there and the charge was missed but for fun, I said he kept going...

"Ok, you narrowly dodge a daemon, however considering this thing is moving like a freight train, it won't be stopping soon. You watch as a creature with all the agility and reflexes of a brick on legs goes hurtling forward..." *GM rolls a 1D5* "...and smashes a good 3 bloodletters out the way. *quickly rolls some more random numbers* Two of those won't be getting back up again. Congratulations, the dozen bloodletters are now down to 10."

"Wahey, daemon of Khorne is incompetent enough to kill his own side!"

Bit of an extreme example I'll admit, but a bit of light humour and just generally enjoying when things go wrong or spectacularly right allows the players to make things feel a bit less "samey".

A second good example was when I was a player we were also up against a Khornate daemon. It basically went to take a swing at me and I went to Parry. Now we actually House Rule that Parry should be somewhat of an opposed skill since only a pass to parry versus possibly a dozen DoS on the "To Hit" roll seems imbalanced. So basically the thing went to cleave my Librarian character in half with his axe. I opted to parry. Perhaps not wise considering the GM rolls 05 to hit against his WS99. My parry roll however results in a 01. 01 to 05 is in our books and probably somewhere in core, such a glorious success that you get the pass irrespective of DoS and under that circumstance, the GM just made my day:

"You manage to swing your force sword up into the air in the path of the great blade. With a deafening crash, his massive axe slams down upon your blade, the sparks fly as the metals collide. However your sword remains unbroken, you buckle a little at the strain due to the immense force he brought down. By the will of the Emperor, you're still standing." At which point half the group were just like "Duuuuuuuude"...and that was before I managed a counter attack doing something like 63 damage

Basically, abridged version of the above:

Make some special shots and lucky rolls (01-05/righteous fury) feel truly epic, sod the rulebook for five minutes and just say that their pinpoint accuracy and success get them that perfect shot and make those catastrophic fails (96-00) that little more amusing or disruptive to just let them enjoy their glory and be wary of their failures. The backfired grenades, the weapon test which fails so badly they lose their weapon grip. Fate smiles on some and shadows fall on others...is it in the rules or the fluff? Not always. Does it make for a good laugh though? Hell yes! Try watching an assault marine spending two turns getting across a gunfight battlefield to recover his sword which got knocked out of his hand when he fluffed a WS test

@ Shambhalawar I think you are worrying too much about not killing your PCs.

• First of all space marines are very hard to kill. Reasonably high wounds good armour, spending fate points for insta-D10 wound regeneration and True Grit makes bringing a space marine to the Critical 7+ difficult.
• Secondly even if this does occur then they have fate points to keep going.
• Thirdly this worry is negatively impacting the game. The PCs won't thank you if there isn't any danger in the combat.
• Fourthly even if you are trying to protect the players don’t let them realise that. Instead play up that in combat you are fair but the NPCs are trying to kill em!.

From a rules point of view enemies that don't worry about personal preservation are always going to be harder to run that normal troops. With normal troops if it is obvious that the marines are hacking their way through them and the combat has got bogged down then you can have the enemy run off rather than face certain death. With Tyranids I would combine a huge horde with a Master or some elite creatures. The horde is there to pin and harass the PCs whilst the Master elvel creatures do the real damage. Once the Master or elites have been driven off or killed the horde disengages. Not because it is routed but simply because the Hive Mind no longer sees the benefit of wasting the bio-mass.

As for running combat itself I would always put in as much narrative as rules. So don’t describe the horde of termagaunts as a horde of 40 describe that there about 3 dozen termagaunts in front of the PCs. Don’t say that the PCs inflicting three wounds or mag. damage instead explain three of the tyranid creatures are blown apart in a hail of mass reactive shells. When the PCs take wounds explain how parts of their armour is chipped and pitted and perhaps if the fleshborer had been an inch to the left it would have penetrated the eye lens.

After the combat describe the sheer carnage that the Astartes have wreaked. Remember that you can create a good opportunity for RP by how easy a combat was as well as how difficult it was .

Picture the scene; A group of three dozen cultists have pinned down an Imperial Guard squad with autogun fire maybe a Heavy Bolter or an auto-cannon. When the Kill Team of four or five marines turn up they will likely destroy this opposition in moments. But don’t simply say

‘it was a Mag 20 horde that was killed in x rounds, well done’

Instead explain that the IG squad is stunned up the sheer ferocity and awesome power of the four Astartes who are now calmly walking through the mangled and burning remains of what was a platoon sized force of cultists.

Depending on the Space Marines and what they have destroyed do the IG really believe them to be humans? If you saw a Flashtearer and Space Wolf a Carcharadon and a Salamander in action who’s to say what you’d think afterwards?

We don't have much rpg combat experience. This group played some 4th ed d and d together, maybe for a total of 4-5 sessions. For the most part people appeared engaged. I could probably ask them both, what gets your excited about combat or what do you enjoy, although I fear the woman is just not as much into the combat altogether. So for her any role-playing/story element woven into the fight I thought might help. As for the guy, my gut tells me challenge would bring him in. I imagine he wants to feel that he faced a tough challenge and overcame it.

Few girls like the topic of warfare. Deathwatch might not be the right setting. That said, I hope she does understand the importance of combat in a RPG - it raises the stake to the highest (lives are at stake) and thus providing tension. Also, trying to outfox someone in combat is generally more exciting than, say, successfully climbing a mountainside.

Of course, it might just be overwhelming. DW isnt a beginner's game. It has many rules and can overwhelm beginners easily. I have listened to a number of DW podcasts recently and none of them played the game correctly. Most ignored like 30% of the rules, probably being totally oblivious of them. They still seemed to have fun although they didnt run it correctly.

But this is why I like DW: it's a veritable art to be learned. Just as the marines hone their skills of 41st millenium warfare daily.

Alex

But this is why I like DW: it's a veritable art to be learned. Just as the marines hone their skills of 41st millenium warfare daily.

So instead of sweating blood while trying to learn the billion rules of a fun but (slightly) buggy game system, we're the adepts of an arcane art? I like how you spin your words, sir.

Yes I do, sir. It's an art to learn how to stack/combine the various things for maximum effect. Also, the recent Genestealer debate reminded me of a crucial Action I had almost forgotten about: Defensive Stance.

Alex

Without reading the thread (a bit to much right now, sorry if something was mentioned before), here are some basic suggestions to make a combat a bit more diversified:

A good described battlefield is very important to offer different tactics to the KT. But it's also usefull for you as GM. Move the foes around, use cover, get in and out of combat with them. If an enemy seems to make the combat boring, don't hesitate to take it out of combat and find a better way to bring it back in.

Also have a look at the table with the possible combat actions and use them to create different situations. For example concentrating on one Marine of the KT, maybe even with an enemy grappling him or a horde trying to separate him from the rest, can create a very tense situation.

The most important advice is, don't just throw enemys at your players. The players aren't the only one that should use tactics, because without it, rolling dices is all that is left.

Without reading the thread (a bit to much right now, sorry if something was mentioned before), here are some basic suggestions to make a combat a bit more diversified:

A good described battlefield is very important to offer different tactics to the KT. But it's also usefull for you as GM. Move the foes around, use cover, get in and out of combat with them. If an enemy seems to make the combat boring, don't hesitate to take it out of combat and find a better way to bring it back in.

Also have a look at the table with the possible combat actions and use them to create different situations. For example concentrating on one Marine of the KT, maybe even with an enemy grappling him or a horde trying to separate him from the rest, can create a very tense situation.

The most important advice is, don't just throw enemys at your players. The players aren't the only one that should use tactics, because without it, rolling dices is all that is left.

Using tactics for the enemies is very important. I find that I unfortunatly skimp on this somewhat in order to make the combat fast and narrative driven. I like your idea of having enemies leave the 'combat zone' and come back. It is a trick that hasn't ever occured to me in 15 odd years of GMing except for obvious examples like the Beast of Thule escaping during the first encounter.

One way that I run combats is to have a few mooks (smallish horde) that are there to distract the PCs but ultimatly quite easy to kill. They also provide good narrative cannon fodder. If a PC wants to drop kick a baddie over a balcony or lift them up break their back and throw them into the rest of the enemy then these are the guys that that can happen to. They die when reduced to 0 wounds

I then have two or three elites who are genuinly quite scary. They use the same critical hit injury tables as the PCS, and I will make sure they are making the most of their skills.

Finally I will often put in a random element, maybe a psyker with odd powers or specialist with a strange weapon like a enemy with a Web gun looking to capture the PCs. The random element generally has little effect but spices up the battle, makes it unique and can add a bit of mayhem.

I also was afraid to hurt my team XD

This is the #1 thing you have to get over. Every Fate Point is a 1-Up just waiting to be spent. IMO players will enjoy the game a lot more when they are ACTUALLY placed in mortal danger rather than given the kid gloves.

A large part of them trying to enjoy combat is not giving situations that are best solved by standing there and exchanging volleys. They will not use tactics unless you give them a reason to. That being said, Hordes are a clunky solution and there have been times I fudged Magnitude mid-battle just to get it to end faster because I was extremely bored, even if the players were having fun.

Ps. does anyone thing the tech marine servo arm is op?

Nah.

I recently threw five marines against a Bloodthirster and a dozen bloodletters. With so many wounds that could easily get into a load of rolls really fast.

The key I found for keeping combat interesting was to keep it amusing. For example:

"Ok, you have a greater daemon of Khorne, not looking overly amused. He seems to be aiming at...*GM rolls a dice*...you! *points at victim*

"Oh joy!"

"Yeah...tough luck with that."

"You don't like me do you? You have been throwing things at me all day."

"You're a librarian. He hates everything you stand for. Do you really think he WONT want to kick seven shades of...out of you?"

"Good point."

*At which point a collective mock and laugh occurred as it dawned on him*

In the end the player made a dodge away from a brutal charge of the daemon. Now technically the rules stop there and the charge was missed but for fun, I said he kept going...

"Ok, you narrowly dodge a daemon, however considering this thing is moving like a freight train, it won't be stopping soon. You watch as a creature with all the agility and reflexes of a brick on legs goes hurtling forward..." *GM rolls a 1D5* "...and smashes a good 3 bloodletters out the way. *quickly rolls some more random numbers* Two of those won't be getting back up again. Congratulations, the dozen bloodletters are now down to 10."

"Wahey, daemon of Khorne is incompetent enough to kill his own side!"

Bit of an extreme example I'll admit, but a bit of light humour and just generally enjoying when things go wrong or spectacularly right allows the players to make things feel a bit less "samey".

A second good example was when I was a player we were also up against a Khornate daemon. It basically went to take a swing at me and I went to Parry. Now we actually House Rule that Parry should be somewhat of an opposed skill since only a pass to parry versus possibly a dozen DoS on the "To Hit" roll seems imbalanced. So basically the thing went to cleave my Librarian character in half with his axe. I opted to parry. Perhaps not wise considering the GM rolls 05 to hit against his WS99. My parry roll however results in a 01. 01 to 05 is in our books and probably somewhere in core, such a glorious success that you get the pass irrespective of DoS and under that circumstance, the GM just made my day:

"You manage to swing your force sword up into the air in the path of the great blade. With a deafening crash, his massive axe slams down upon your blade, the sparks fly as the metals collide. However your sword remains unbroken, you buckle a little at the strain due to the immense force he brought down. By the will of the Emperor, you're still standing." At which point half the group were just like "Duuuuuuuude"...and that was before I managed a counter attack doing something like 63 damage

As for running combat itself I would always put in as much narrative as rules. So don’t describe the horde of termagaunts as a horde of 40 describe that there about 3 dozen termagaunts in front of the PCs. Don’t say that the PCs inflicting three wounds or mag. damage instead explain three of the tyranid creatures are blown apart in a hail of mass reactive shells. When the PCs take wounds explain how parts of their armour is chipped and pitted and perhaps if the fleshborer had been an inch to the left it would have penetrated the eye lens.

After the combat describe the sheer carnage that the Astartes have wreaked. Remember that you can create a good opportunity for RP by how easy a combat was as well as how difficult it was .

Picture the scene; A group of three dozen cultists have pinned down an Imperial Guard squad with autogun fire maybe a Heavy Bolter or an auto-cannon. When the Kill Team of four or five marines turn up they will likely destroy this opposition in moments. But don’t simply say

‘it was a Mag 20 horde that was killed in x rounds, well done’

Instead explain that the IG squad is stunned up the sheer ferocity and awesome power of the four Astartes who are now calmly walking through the mangled and burning remains of what was a platoon sized force of cultists.

These are good reminders to mix narrative with actual combat rules. I was doing this to some degree in the fight that became boring, but I could have embellished the actions of my players more. I think after 3 hours of playing I became a bit overwhelmed by trying to hold the vast number of rules and all the circumstances of the situation. One important thing I am learning, is that I have a 3-4 hour time limit atm at which point my mental capacity for leading a game starts to diminish fast. In the future I might try to schedule a mid game break for 15 min, so i don't fall in a slump. I think this lead to not having enough mental endurance to continue with good exciting narratives (I hope this gets easier over time as I feel it will). When we recently played the narrative helped the situation become soooo much more exciting.

I also was afraid to hurt my team XD

This is the #1 thing you have to get over. Every Fate Point is a 1-Up just waiting to be spent. IMO players will enjoy the game a lot more when they are ACTUALLY placed in mortal danger rather than given the kid gloves.

Agreed. I heard multiple people in the post make this point and it helped my next game to have faith that the team would figure a way out of the situation. I did the extraction mission and during the last part of the mission had the team hold off a carnifex for 5 rounds. It lead to really ridiculous, creative and fun role-play. My librarian said, "To hell with it" and began pushing all his attacks, resulting in his character falling into a psychic comma. Another person leaped from a rock onto the beast's head and stabbed out its eye, while another tried the same trick with a force sword and fell at the feet of the monster. Someone else hacked an auto turret and began unloading doing some real damage. Nobody died, some were damaged, and the after action report was that everyone had fun. I still wonder if I am running the combat correctly, distributing damage, righteous fury, etc...

General rule? Ignore the rules where it helps advance the plot and make the experience more enjoyable. Just so long as players know that the rule is being bent/broken. This is why we have house rules sections!

Thanks to all the people posting on the thread, it has been a big help to me. I would like to keep the conversation going if it helps others.

What ways do the GMs out there keep the combat creative and fresh? Players, how do you keep the combat exciting for yourself?

I found that having the random auto turret on the map was awesome. That gun was the main source of dealing damage to the beast and it just happen to be in the area the fight took place based on the extraction maps. I had not intended it to be used, but when one of my players asked if they could hack it I decided that it could be done. Adding a creative environmental element gave more options for my players. In future situations I will have to plan for 1-2 things like that in the environment.

Another helpful tip came from one of my players who is an improv actor. He said that in improv you "allow everything." In RP I can see that there might be a limit to some things, but I liked this as a majority rule. For example, leaping on the head of the carnifex seemed suicidal to me, but it worked out great in the combat. There was a part of me that wanted to say, "that's just not possible, you can't do that to a carnifex." I got this feedback after leading my first game, in which my tech marine wanted to load 3 grenades it her servo arm and launch them all at once into a horde. I thought the idea was silly and said she couldn't do it (hence the feedback from the other player after the game). In retrospect, I think maybe I could have made the action take 2-3 full rounds to make happen, which would have balanced it out more. This was a creative solution, and I think letting players be creative and do what they want is important for dynamic combat.

Anymore thoughts if you got em

General rule? Ignore the rules where it helps advance the plot and make the experience more enjoyable. Just so long as players know that the rule is being bent/broken. This is why we have house rules sections!

Agree

Another helpful tip came from one of my players who is an improv actor. He said that in improv you "allow everything." In RP I can see that there might be a limit to some things, but I liked this as a majority rule. For example, leaping on the head of the carnifex seemed suicidal to me, but it worked out great in the combat. There was a part of me that wanted to say, "that's just not possible, you can't do that to a carnifex." I got this feedback after leading my first game, in which my tech marine wanted to load 3 grenades it her servo arm and launch them all at once into a horde. I thought the idea was silly and said she couldn't do it (hence the feedback from the other player after the game). In retrospect, I think maybe I could have made the action take 2-3 full rounds to make happen, which would have balanced it out more. This was a creative solution, and I think letting players be creative and do what they want is important for dynamic combat.

Essentially the "allow everything" rule is a powerful one but can seriously be amusing or lethal. Basically when a player asks "Can I do x" such as:

Player : So the enemy Carnifex is charging towards us yes?

GM : Yes.

Player : Could I jump onto that things face and grab its tusk?

GM : Erm...well, yes you could but if you screw up then you're either in its mouth or going to be stomped on.

Player : I don't mind, geronimo!

Your best response (if you think you can manage it) is usually "You could do that but there may be consequences if you mess up/miss/fail". If that doesn't dissuade them from it then they are being too cautious. Otherwise just be prepared to throw some amusing pain their way

Also, to say you can't do that to a Carnifex try this as inspiration:

(Video of Dawn of War 2)

Couple of points:

A. Keep the experience varied. Not every combat should force the players to be creative. Sometimes it's nice for players to mow down enemies and just avoid getting hurt for the boss fight.

B. Prepare in advance what do you want to convey in an encounter, what the experience for the players/PCs should be. Write it down and read again before the encounter takes place. Just one or two lines.

C. Observe the player's psyche during the encounter and try to get across what you resolved to do. Doesn't always work but when it does, it's pretty good. If it doesn't work, take a brief pause during the encounter, just a minute. Leaf through a book or whatever while thinking what you can add to the moment to make things work out more smoothly.

Alex

I found that having the random auto turret on the map was awesome.

You mean a heavy bolter? Are you using errata damage or no? Mainly ask because core damage really makes big solos too easy to kill.

I found that having the random auto turret on the map was awesome.

You mean a heavy bolter? Are you using errata damage or no? Mainly ask because core damage really makes big solos too easy to kill.

I believe I said it was two heavy bolters on a turret. After all that was said I went fishing for the damage and I think it was from the errata. Also I doubled the damage because there were two mounted guns. I think I fudged some of the last round of damage so as to let the carnifex live. The goal was to make them survive until a storm bird grabbed the KT, I also thought a later mission thread could be to kill the same carnifex (the one eye carnifex). But yes, 2 heavy blotters did a lot of damage, more than I imagined.

I wish there was some way for me to understand what equipment one needs to be equal with x kind of beast.

Or could you tell me good sir, what do you think is an equal fight for a carnifex. We had an assault marine, tech, librarian, and apothecary. All pretty basic gear, someone had a flamer and someone had hellfire rounds.

Couple of points:

A. Keep the experience varied. Not every combat should force the players to be creative. Sometimes it's nice for players to mow down enemies and just avoid getting hurt for the boss fight.

B. Prepare in advance what do you want to convey in an encounter, what the experience for the players/PCs should be. Write it down and read again before the encounter takes place. Just one or two lines.

C. Observe the player's psyche during the encounter and try to get across what you resolved to do. Doesn't always work but when it does, it's pretty good. If it doesn't work, take a brief pause during the encounter, just a minute. Leaf through a book or whatever while thinking what you can add to the moment to make things work out more smoothly.

Alex

Thanks! This is helpful and I would like to try it in my next combat. Can you give me an example so that I can better understand the approach?

I found that having the random auto turret on the map was awesome.

You mean a heavy bolter? Are you using errata damage or no? Mainly ask because core damage really makes big solos too easy to kill.

I believe I said it was two heavy bolters on a turret. After all that was said I went fishing for the damage and I think it was from the errata. Also I doubled the damage because there were two mounted guns. I think I fudged some of the last round of damage so as to let the carnifex live. The goal was to make them survive until a storm bird grabbed the KT, I also thought a later mission thread could be to kill the same carnifex (the one eye carnifex). But yes, 2 heavy blotters did a lot of damage, more than I imagined.

I wish there was some way for me to understand what equipment one needs to be equal with x kind of beast.

Or could you tell me good sir, what do you think is an equal fight for a carnifex. We had an assault marine, tech, librarian, and apothecary. All pretty basic gear, someone had a flamer and someone had hellfire rounds.

When taking on little things and troops you're usually looking at needing things like Bolters, shotguns, explosives or flamers, weapons which output a lot of shots and adequate damage or scattering to trim through masses of hostiles. Since bigger things like Las Cannons are too potent and dont really have enough of the tear through mob like qualities.

Elites tend to come in smaller groups and better equipped so for those you're looking at weapons with some reduced rate of fire but higher damage or pen like your plasma, power and missile weapons or some of your special issue ammunition which ups the pen/damage. These tend to give you a good rate of fire without sacrificing too much mobility.

Master choices tend to pack a lot of wounds and deliver massive damage output or are a pain to kill so thats when you look at Plasma Cannons, Las Cannons, the really painful stuff. Low RoF but when it hits then they feel the hit. Usually Master things are huge anyway so hard to miss them.

To be honest, ONE carnifex alone will struggle. Very few of anything in the 40k system can usually hold its own against a kill team. The only exceptions are things such as the really big daemons, tanks and only the nastiest of Tyranids and even then it sometimes doesn't last much longer. No, what you needed was more units around, Warrior beasts, gaunts etc. They are there as the meat shield and distraction. Overwhelming odds will force them to back off slowly lest they be swarmed making a fighting withdrawal till a heroic rescue.

Good example I had was five marines versus a Bloodthirster. Now even one of Khorne's finest will have a hard time versus a kitted up team so to counter that, lob in some Bloodletters. That way they can easily keep the party occupied who must direct their fire on the smaller things lest be overwhelmed. For Tyranids as well you have it even easier, more gaunts out of nowhere!

Or could you tell me good sir, what do you think is an equal fight for a carnifex. We had an assault marine, tech, librarian, and apothecary. All pretty basic gear, someone had a flamer and someone had hellfire rounds.

Hellfire bolter/flamer, lascannon, krak missiles, meltagun, Librarian channeling through his force weapon or Pushing certain powers.