Hello, new player to EotE, veteran to tabletop games though. I'm playing a twi'lek colonist/politico with a strong focus on charm (2 ranks and presence 4 at the character gen), with a point in leadership, mostly going for being the party frontman.

My question here is about the Charm skill; mainly, how do you use it? What are some good approaches to using charm as opposed to deception or coercion? I'm quickly finding that our party is going to be lying their pants off quite a bit, and a lot of scenarios in the modules require posing as potential buyers, disguised as workers, etc. What are some tips and tricks to turn these deception rolls into charm rolls, so I can play to my strengths as more of a "good cop" character?

Some background on the campaign group, and my character: We have a smuggler/scoundrel (deception master), wookie maurader, mando gunslinger type, droid assassin, an npc R5 droid and myself. My character is a former slave of a Hutt lieutenant that betrayed my master, escaped to Coruscant (for now) and am currently trying to start business enterprises that will lead into eventual political influence. Don't know if that extra info helps, but it's there.

So far, I've only really been able to use my charm to lower the guard of some storm troopers that were delivering our captured wookie to a trade, and flipped a destiny point to get them drunk with some fine vintage I "managed to have" tucked in my fruit stand business in a lower class neighborhood on Coruscant.

Thanks for any help in advance.

Charm is basically the Persuasion/Diplomacy skill of EotE. Use Coercion for when you're frightening someone, Deception when you're lying to them, Negotiation when bargaining and Charm for everything else. That's my take on it, anyway.

Charm is getting inside people's heads and empathizing with them, giving them what they want at the moment. It could be flattering them, putting yourself in a position of dominance, or submission, consoling their fears, commiserating with their frustrations, or just making them laugh. There's a lot of cross-over with Deception, it just depends how you approach it, and IMHO Charm gives more options for good roleplay.

If you need to get past a security guard:

"Hi there, nice day isn't it? I got married on a day like this...not that that turned out so well, so maybe it's not a nice day after all, har har har. So what's it like working security for these guys, good benefits? No? Bummer. I tell ya, they don't know how to prioritize. All the credits float to the top, but what's the point if someone can just walk in the back door? So you're looking fit and trim, how come you're not a stormtrooper or something? What's that? Bad back? Me too! Well, not my back, my knee. Busted it when I was a kid, now I can't bend it all the way, see? Tried to join up but couldn't pass the physical.

"Well, nice talking to ya. Gotta head home and see the old vibroaxe...uh, I mean wife, har har. I...wait...****! I left my badge upstairs. Crap! All those forms and that crazy replacement fee...what? Really? Thanks man, I won't be a minute..."

Charm is getting inside people's heads and empathizing with them, giving them what they want at the moment. It could be flattering them, putting yourself in a position of dominance, or submission, consoling their fears, commiserating with their frustrations, or just making them laugh. There's a lot of cross-over with Deception, it just depends how you approach it, and IMHO Charm gives more options for good roleplay.

If you need to get past a security guard:

"Hi there, nice day isn't it? I got married on a day like this...not that that turned out so well, so maybe it's not a nice day after all, har har har. So what's it like working security for these guys, good benefits? No? Bummer. I tell ya, they don't know how to prioritize. All the credits float to the top, but what's the point if someone can just walk in the back door? So you're looking fit and trim, how come you're not a stormtrooper or something? What's that? Bad back? Me too! Well, not my back, my knee. Busted it when I was a kid, now I can't bend it all the way, see? Tried to join up but couldn't pass the physical.

"Well, nice talking to ya. Gotta head home and see the old vibroaxe...uh, I mean wife, har har. I...wait...****! I left my badge upstairs. Crap! All those forms and that crazy replacement fee...what? Really? Thanks man, I won't be a minute..."

The latter part really sounds like Deception to me. The first part might be a Charm roll to try to get some Advantage to help with the Deception, but getting past the guard is certainly an act of Deception.

Well I wouldn't make them roll twice. If you're Charming someone, your intent is to get them on your side, or make it seem like you're on their side. Coercion, Deception, and Charm are all "deceptive", it's just how you approach it and the tone.

Coercion: "Do you know who I am? You let me in to get my badge or I'm going to make sure you're scrubbing refreshers for the rest of your life."

Or you might use Coercion to convince someone you're going to kill them if they don't spill the beans, even if you actually aren't going to kill them. Isn't that "deceptive" as well?

If Charm is just "carousing", there's not a lot of roleplay involved. There would be times where you want the person to know that you really are on their side, which is also Charm, but the uses of that seem pretty limited.

The skill description for Charm says you have to be genuine. Using duplicity to accomplish an act - which is the end goal of your interaction no matter how much you sweet talk them - is Deception.

It is only considered Charm if you are being honest with the other character. This includes flirting. If the intentions are not genuine, it is Deception. If you are having problems with Charm, use it as a distraction so another PC can accomplish something. Have an honest conversation with the target. You said your character is a former slave and working on a political career. In some situations you can appeal to the NPCs if they are against slavery. Or, have a political conversation and try to find some common ground. As far as being the front man, Charm can work with this as well. If something bad happens and you have to talk your way out of a situation be honest about your party's good characteristics and leave out the bad stuff. That smuggler is probably a good pilot for example and the delivery you are making could mean life or death for someone else.

In this regard, I feel it is easier to use Deception, as lying is almost always easier. Also, honest politicians are hard to come by

I'm not sure I'd say the intention being honest is the ONLY factor.

I'd be okay with a player using Charm to schmooze their way past a guard, even if they were being a little deceptive, like in whafrog's example above. Either one would be ok in that situation at my table.

I'd say in general if you're trying to be sweet, kind, charming, social ... those would be good options for using the Charm skill.

For example if you ran up to the guard at the door, in a panic, and told him "Oh man, you've gotta let me get back in, the report I need for my boss is still on my desk, I have to deliver it to him or he'll have my job! I got all the way home and ... oh no, I forgot my badge, but can you just let me by this once?"

I'd probably use Deception rather than Charm in that case.

I'd see it like this:

Charm: "I'm sorry I was speeding officer. I didn't see the posted limit sign. I know that a kind, understanding soul like yourself would understand overlooking something so simple, right?"

Deception: "Holy crap, my wife is in the back giving birth! Can you give us a police escort to the hospital! Hurry man, time is of the essence!" (There is, of course, nobody in the back seat)

Coercion: "Don't you have some doughnuts you have to go eat, you ******* meter maid? You get out that ******* ticket book and I will ******* break you in half like a dry twig. They will be finding bits of you in 16 different sectors for the next forty ******* years."

I am playing a similar character and been playing in a campaign weekly for since December. Presence 4, charm of 2 (now upgraded to 3)

It is difficult, I have only been able to use charm twice so far, because our party went full obligation and we aren't really able to deal with legititmate people and the fact that most of our plans involve lyeing.

Because the party has only been selling illegal stuff, I have only been able to use negotiate once (and that was for a personal purchase as I was looking for a protocol droid)

I made a character who did not do lyeing feeling it is lazy (cunning of 2 only, no ranks in deception)

But yeah...I may have to roleplay him realizing...oh wait...looks like I will need to learn to lie better!

Charm: "I'm sorry I was speeding officer. I didn't see the posted limit sign. I know that a kind, understanding soul like yourself would understand overlooking something so simple, right?"

I agree with your post, but in my books this is still "deceptive", it's just a matter of tone.

The skill description for Charm says you have to be genuine. Using duplicity to accomplish an act - which is the end goal of your interaction no matter how much you sweet talk them - is Deception.

In a game where most of the roleplay is based on trying to get something out of people they don't want to give, there aren't a lot of occasions for adhering to your strict definition. Another factor that comes into play is how the target feels afterwards, and how that might impact future interactions. If helping the PC makes the target feel like they did a good deed, or gives them that righteous glow, then Charm makes more sense to me. The aftermath of being discovered is different too: with Deception the PC is just a lying scumbag; with Charm: "I trusted you and you used me!" The latter is more emotional.

Charm: Influincing someones opinion to the positive. It doesn't mean that they beleive you, but if they like you they are more inclined to let something slide or to give in to what you are asking.

Deception: Convincing someone that a falsehood is true. They beleive you, but it has nothing to do with how they view you. For example, you convince an imperial that you really are authorized to be somewhere, but he's a hard core speciest so he denies you entry anyway just because he can.

Intimidation: It doesn't matter if they like or dislike you. They think that something really bad will happen if they don't give in to what you are asking.

I've pondered a few times about how to convince someone through the skills that you are telling the truth when you really are. I used to lean more towards charm, but one of the things I occasionally forget is that a lot of the skills overlap, so I'm going to suggest to my GM that characters can choose between charm or deception based on how they go about it. Trying to be smooth and convincing: deception, trying to be sweet and innocent: charm.

I am currently playing a very talkative smuggler.

Charm: I use this constantly. Trying to get clearance without going through regular channels? Smooth talk your way with a controller. Want to get some information? A few lommin ales, and some charming discourse can loosen some lips at the local watering hole.I personally think that little white lies fall into this field. It's part of the process of schmoozing that everyone does. The difference here is that you are't outright saying one thing and meaning another.

"Yeah so I was needing to get off planet quick, I know I am supposed to go to the port authority and get them to clear my ship but I just don't have the time. I was just figured that someone as smart and good looking(wink) as you could make it happen. After all we all know who really keeps this place running, am I right? And tell you what next time I am planet side I will buy you a drink." I am not being chased by the authorities, I just don't want to go through customs for...reasons.

I have also used charm to get myself in good with a Hutt boss, we don't run missions for the slug. But I regailed with stories of my smuggling life, and thanks to a stupidly lucky roll the Hutt thinks I am the slug's slime, wookie's pajamas as it were. We had enough of Hutt's with my lGM's amazing portrayal of Borgas the incompetent.

Before I start negotiations for the purchase or sales of goods? Yeah I am sweet talking the guy/gal/being. Charm is the Lando skill. it's all about "What have we here.." Unless there is a reason I genuinely don't like the person or am really flat out lying I charm. Once Lando knew Leia was into Han he kept charming her just rile up Han but he was being deceptive he was being charming.

The line between charm and deception is super grey. Work with your GM. There is no reason you couldn't charm before you deceive for bonuses. And even in the underworld telling the truth in normal business transactions is considered normal. Constantly lying will put you on the wrong end of a blaster quick. Just because you aren't dealing on the law abiding side of life doesn't mean their are rules. Hell I think I have left just about every planet with at least one good contact their. Someone I can go back to if I need to sell something, or I am looking for more work.

Just the thoughts of a smuggler.

I think everyone here is on the right track. If you're going for a Face character in EotE don't just go for maxing out Charm and Presence you'll find it will limit your possibilities. I'd focus on Presence and Intellect, (and do not ignore Willpower as it will help protect you from being duped), Charm, Deception, Negotiation and a few Knowledge skills (Knowledge skills will come in very handy to get critical information that will boost your Charm, Deception, and Negotiation attempts). Intimidation and Coercion are also useful but it's a much different tactic and it will depend your character concept. Also don't worry as much about having a lot of dice to roll for each skill, you'll be doing mostly a lot of Opposed rolls against Minions and Rivals and their social skills will not be that high (not like their combat skills), so it's better to have more options that you can augment with Knowledge skills (getting Boost dice) than sinking all your EXP into just Charm. This will make you more valuable over a broader spectrum of situations.

The point being is that a Face character is actually a pretty complex build in EotE where your skills will really be put to the test.

I think everyone here is on the right track. If you're going for a Face character in EotE don't just go for maxing out Charm and Presence you'll find it will limit your possibilities. I'd focus on Presence and Intellect, (and do not ignore Willpower as it will help protect you from being duped), Charm, Deception, Negotiation and a few Knowledge skills (Knowledge skills will come in very handy to get critical information that will boost your Charm, Deception, and Negotiation attempts). Intimidation and Coercion are also useful but it's a much different tactic and it will depend your character concept. Also don't worry as much about having a lot of dice to roll for each skill, you'll be doing mostly a lot of Opposed rolls against Minions and Rivals and their social skills will not be that high (not like their combat skills), so it's better to have more options that you can augment with Knowledge skills (getting Boost dice) than sinking all your EXP into just Charm. This will make you more valuable over a broader spectrum of situations.

The point being is that a Face character is actually a pretty complex build in EotE where your skills will really be put to the test.

That is what I went for. High presence and intelligence (and got the politico and scholar talent trees)

Have core worlds and xenology and underworld as skills (at 2, 1, 2)

However, no deception yet. May have go for a deception...and maybe some streetwise as well.

After going through a couple of sessions since my last post, I've felt that my new approach to Charm has really been working out. We're going through the Under a Black Sun adventure, and I've been able to shmooze up to Chopper and Corsin Finn(sp?), as well as the various bartenders we come across. Basically, I've found that just honestly trying to be friends with who you are talking with is the best approach. Instead of trying to "charm" the guards to let you through because you're a bunch of undercover operatives and you don't have an ID on you, explain how much guard duty sucks, how you'll buy the guys a few drinks and that it's just not worth everyone's time and trouble for you to get the proper documents in order. Might seem common sense to some, but it takes some getting used to in game to really play the skill.

On another side note, I've been broadening my character to have 2 deception, 2 leadership and up to Improved Inspiring Rhetoric. Starting to feel my character fit into his role as the "face" of the group.

2 good examples of the group I GM using Charm:

- The group jumps out of hyperspace right next to a pirate cruiser. Instead of making a run for it or fighting, the face of the group (a Twi'lek looking to create a drug empire) decides to instead offer the pirates a more lucrative deal in joining his ryll business. He succeeds with Triumph over the pirate captain (despite 3 challenge dice), so the captain invites them on board to discuss his proposal! Wacky hi-jinks ensued for an awesome adventure.

- Later, when they run into some pirates from the same organization, our alcoholic gunslinger decides he doesn't want to play nice and ambushes a pirate boarding party. The rest of the party stun him, then have to talk the pirates out of killing him outright. Another successful charm roll after RPing them explaining that the gunslinger is mentally unstable (which is pretty true), allows them to keep him alive; however, a Despair on the roll means some potential unpleasantness for future encounters with those pirates.

Hopefully that gives you some ideas. We generally have Charm for rolls that are mostly truthful, with exaggeration, flattery, etc., in there to get the target to see things your way.

The skill description for Charm says you have to be genuine. Using duplicity to accomplish an act - which is the end goal of your interaction no matter how much you sweet talk them - is Deception.

Seems like this very underpowers Charm. I'd prefer to look at player methodology than ends, just to let a Charm-focused character still be effectively social with "enemy" interests, where a strict ruling of Charm vs Deception might make them borderline useless.

The skill description for Charm says you have to be genuine. Using duplicity to accomplish an act - which is the end goal of your interaction no matter how much you sweet talk them - is Deception.

Seems like this very underpowers Charm. I'd prefer to look at player methodology than ends, just to let a Charm-focused character still be effectively social with "enemy" interests, where a strict ruling of Charm vs Deception might make them borderline useless.

I disagree, what it does is delineate Charm and Deception, and Charm and Negotiation or Coercion for that matter. In other games Charm is a catch all skill but in EotE it's only one of several skills in your interpersonal toolbox. Remember Charm can be used as a set up to a Social "Attack" as well, for example you can Charm an Opponent first to gain bonuses to then Negotiate or Deceive them.

By allowing you to use Charm to Deceive (or Negotiate or Coerce) you're creating a super-skill that the system isn't designed to counter. Keep in mind that the Social skills of the Opponents you're likely to encounter are far lower than their Combat skills so you don't need 4-5 skill dice in one skill, rather you need 2-3 dice in several of them to be effective.

Charm: "I'm sorry I was speeding officer. I didn't see the posted limit sign. I know that a kind, understanding soul like yourself would understand overlooking something so simple, right?"

Deception: "Holy crap, my wife is in the back giving birth! Can you give us a police escort to the hospital! Hurry man, time is of the essence!" (There is, of course, nobody in the back seat)

As an aside I would see both of these as Deception given the above interpretations of each skill, unless the Charm example explicitly had the speaker believe they didn't see or know the speed limit. If they knew and were trying to get out of it, it'd be Deception.

Charm: "I'm sorry I was speeding officer. I didn't see the posted limit sign. I know that a kind, understanding soul like yourself would understand overlooking something so simple, right?"

Deception: "Holy crap, my wife is in the back giving birth! Can you give us a police escort to the hospital! Hurry man, time is of the essence!" (There is, of course, nobody in the back seat)

As an aside I would see both of these as Deception given the above interpretations of each skill, unless the Charm example explicitly had the speaker believe they didn't see or know the speed limit. If they knew and were trying to get out of it, it'd be Deception.

Agreed. The first looks like a Charm attempt to soften the cop then a Deception with any Bonuses gained from smooth talking to bring it home.

The second is pure Deception, enhanced or hindered by the PC's in the back seat Deception vs Perception for pretending they're pregnant.

I see using Charm to get out of a speeding ticket s something more like, "Yeah, I was going a little fast. I'm just running late - my own fault, really. Any way you could just let me off with a warning tonight?" It's basically just being sincere and relying on your charming personality to pull you through rather than trying to trick/deceive them.

But if you know you were speeding and trying to "charm" your way out of consequences, you're still being deceptive as you're trying to avoid consequences by lying. Even if you're letting your charming personality work via innocent acts and/or flirting, you're still trying to lie your way out, and that's Deception.

But if you know you were speeding and trying to "charm" your way out of consequences, you're still being deceptive as you're trying to avoid consequences by lying. Even if you're letting your charming personality work via innocent acts and/or flirting, you're still trying to lie your way out, and that's Deception.

Frankly I don't see Charm being very applicable in most contentious circumstances where, in all likelihood, you ARE doing something improper and trying not to face consequences for it. That's why I see it as misnamed at best and underpowered at worst given these readings.

I really think you and others in this thread are taking this a little too seriously.

Charm is a very easily-understood concept, it's a very good name for a category of social skills, and it's more up to the GM in any particular instance to determine whether the PC should use Charm, Deception, Negotiation, Leadership or Coercion.

I've also ruled in my games that a player should use Deception rather than Charm, because he was being technically deceptive, but after this discussion I am rethinking that a little.

There's an Order 66 episode featuring Jay Little, the lead designer of the game, discussing social skills and when to use each particular one and how to interpret them.

If you know that you have a character who specializes in being very charming, as a GM you should be aware of this, and give them a little leeway when it comes to whether they're rolling Charm or Deception checks, or whatever.

If they're being generally nice, sweet, complimentary, then I'd say it is a safe decision to go with Charm. If a Twi'lek dancer wants to flirt with a guard to gain access to a prison cell, in my opinion Charm should be a safe bet, regardless of what she's saying.

If a diplomatic Politico is complementing a crimelord on the excellent decor of his mansion to curry favor with him, I'd say Charm is a safe bet, even if the Politico doesn't happen to like bantha skulls and wampa rugs.

This is a very flexible game and in many cases there is more than one possible skill that can apply to a situation. In my opinion it's a little overboard to say that Charm is "badly named and underpowered", when its use is really up to the GM and the players.