(Rather than tangent in the original thread)

Which said, 3 Force Rating is "A young Jedi Knight" per table 8-1 (p. 176) of the Edge Beta. (I had it to hand, and don't recall the table being included elsewhere.)
[snip]
For fun, here's the table (which may be deprecated now, as it's not in AoR Beta nor in Edge Final)
0 — No Affinity — Common Populace
1 — Sensitive — Jedi Initiate
2 — Tenuous — A self-taught Exile; Padawan
3 — Moderate — A young Jedi Knight.
4 — Strong —A well-trained Jedi Knight
5 — Potent — A veteran Jedi Knight
6 — Formidable — Jedi Master, Sith Lord
7 — Legendary — The most truly heroic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords.

Yeah, Force Powers are where a lot of a Force-user's XP is going to be spent, particularly if you're looking to fully "master" a given power.

If you're willing to accept just being "pretty decent," much the way that Luke did by RotJ, then it's not so much per power... but you're still spending a decent chunk of XP for the breadth of powers that he made use of.

This got me thinking... exactly what do we see Luke and Ben use?

Ep IV -

• Ben uses Influence and a load of force points to scare off the Tusken Raiders...
• Ben uses Sense to verify that Luke's not dead. It can be argued that he's using a Healing ability instead. ¹
• We have Ben using Influence on a group of 5 stormtroopers. ²
• Ben throws a something to distract the stormtroopers. That's Move
• Luke senses the remote through the blast shield. Foresee?? ³
• Luke does better than the targeting computer. Enhance?? ⁴

Ep V -

• Luke has a vision of Ben on Hoth. Could be Luke's Forsee or ForceGhost Ben's Influence. ⁵
• Luke uses Move to recover his lightsaber. And barely succeeds. ⁶
• Luke clearly uses Move and Enhance in the training sequences on Dagobah. ⁷
• Luke uses Foresee (off screen) and discusses the vision with Yoda and ben (On screen) while packing.
• Luke uses Enhance to make "impossible" leaps during the duel. ⁸
• Luke may be using Foresee, or Vader using Influence, during the "Search Your Feelings, Luke" bit... ⁹
• Luke Influences Leia to come get him

Ep VI -

• Luke uses Influence repeatedly to get into Jabba's Palace
• Luke uses Enhance and Move in the battle with the Rancor and in the battle on the skybarges ¹⁰
• Luke uses Enhance for some of those moves on Endor, and for the pilot planetary bonus...
• Luke uses either Foresee or Sense to detect Vader. ¹¹
• But note: he fails to find Leia, earlier, so is that a failed Foresee? ¹²
• Luke definitely tries to Influence Vader in the duel, but Vader clearly resists. (And it's mutual.)

Notes

1. I'm in the Heal camp. Many are not. But, given his force abilities, Ben should ALREADY know Luke's still alive.
2. It can be argued that he affects only the sergeant... But assuming Ben's filled that power, he's only used 3 force points - because 4-6 additional targets needs a second additional. Expected for a FR 6 Jedi is 0.5 FP per die.
3. Can't be sense - sense is restricted to living targets.
4. Could be enhance to lock for +1 Ag... but probably not, given the timing, unless Luke had a bunch of unspent XP's... could be also Intense Focus and Touch of Fate, in addition. But then we're talking luke being base+300XP by the battle of Yaavin.
5. I waffle on whether I think it's Luke or Ben, but generally lean to Ben influencing luke.
6. was it just a bad roll? IE, all black? (34% chance on 2D...) Or is he not yet FR 2? I gues it's a bad roll with FR 2.
7. Given some of the objects he's moving...he is routinely using 3+ force points. 1 for base move, +1 for additional targets, +1 for magnitude - the rocks are bigger than him mass/volume wise. And he's holding 3 rocks and artoo, while apparently having a die locked for the brawn to remain in a handstand that long. So I estimate him to be at least FR3, possibly FR4 by the end of training.
8. He's casually using 2 FP, so that's likely to be FR4.
9. I think it may be both. Vader knows it's true, and is influencing Luke to actually trust the vision.
10. Luke's got a LOT of locked dice and still has dice for force use for move. It's pretty clear he's locked for both brawn and agility. And is getting 2-3 FP for Enhance jumps.
11. If it's sense, then there is an upgrade not on the tables to detect specific individuals. It seems more like forsee to me. But then, Luke fails to find leia, and so, perhaps it's some other power he uses on Vader?

When we add Vader and the Emperor, we get only three more significant things: force choke, Force Lightning, Blaster Soak.

Force Lightning and Blaster Soak are probably in the same power - Energy Manipulation

Vader uses Force Choke at interplanetary ranges. He's probably getting +3 Range bands per point, so 2 FP to get to space range band of short, 1 more to extreme, 1 more to rest of the system... and 1 more to up the "silhouette" for damage purposes, doing probaby 40 Wounds... 6 dark force points. That's a pretty potent roll. About 30% shot on 7 dice...

Luke's not using the targeting computer was more likely Sense and a Destiny Point.

Luke's not using the targeting computer was more likely Sense and a Destiny Point.

Sense doesn't provide decent bonuses to skill (one upgrade only), and the destiny point would also provide one upgrade only...

... but we have no rules for "No targeting computer" - not even as a critical hit.

Genre Emulation Failure.

Luke's not using the targeting computer was more likely Sense and a Destiny Point.

Sense doesn't provide decent bonuses to skill (one upgrade only), and the destiny point would also provide one upgrade only...

... but we have no rules for "No targeting computer" - not even as a critical hit.

Genre Emulation Failure.

The targeting computer attachment only provides one upgrade unless modified (then it produces two).

I posted this in another place but its mainly focused on all the saga powers (Ep from I to VI and Clone Wars TV Show). Powers that are 100% canon.

- Run, Jump, Push + Saber Throw, Pull, Move, Grip, Lightning, "Stabilize more than Heal" (Obi -> Luke/Padme), Mind Trick, Sense, Farseeing, Mind Reading/Telepathy and Dathomir Powers like Barriers, Materialize Objects (fold space?), Invisible/Illusions and maybe a few more like "Vodoo, Raise Undead" and Metamorphosis (Overlords).

Luke also uses Force Choke in VI on the Gamorrean guards, but he's pretty clearly not doing it as strongly as Vader -- either because he can't, or he won't. Is that him using some prudent dark Force points, or is there a way to activate that using light points?

I always thought Ben used some sort of influence/mind trick on the stormtroopers aboard the death star - suggesting they look another way due to a phantom noise. Not that it matters much.

How does Ben fake the Krayt Dragon sound? Is that done with the Force, or just a Krayt Commander Krayt Call (watch Krayt Dynasty on the Holonet this fall!)?

For Ben vs. Tusken Raiders, that could very easily be a Coercion check with a Triumph used to really freak them out (with the Tuskens being treated as a minion group and thus a single entity) with a fluff description of him using the Force to amplify the sound. As for checking on Luke, an Easy Medicine check would probably accomplish the same, and be something that Ben (who's got at least 3 Intellect) could accomplish without too much trouble.

Honestly, I think you're ascribing a bit too much to "they used the Force" than looking at more mundane options, possibly backed up with a Destiny Point. Taking a look at your list, here's my take on it:

Ep IV -

• As cited above, Ben uses Coercion to scare off the Tusken Raiders, having scored a Triumph as well as succeeding, maybe with a couple Threat that were spent to have C-3P0 (an NPC) be damaged worse than first seemed.
• Ben makes a Medicine check (Easy difficulty) to confirm that Luke's still alive, perhaps even spending some Advantage to give Luke a Boost die on his Discipline/Cool check to recover Strain now that the encounter with the Sand People has ended.
• We have Ben using Influence on a group of stormtroopers (minion group of 4 with one sergeant)
• Ben makes a hand gesture to make the 2 stormtroopers think they heard something . Influence once again.
• Luke senses the remote through the blast shield, justifying his buying Sense and the initial Control Upgrade, possibly even the Duration and Strength Upgrades as well.
• Luke does better than the targeting computer; this one is Sense's Offensive Control Upgrade, giving him two upgrades to his Gunnery check (since he's got the Strength Upgrade by this point as well) as well as spending a Destiny Point for an extra bit of luck.

Ep V -

• Luke has a vision of Ben on Hoth. This one's purely plot device on the GM's part.
• Luke uses Move to recover his lightsaber, probably only having the basic power with no upgrades purchased. It's also possible the GM is enforcing a penalty on the check due to Luke's battered condition.
• Luke clearly uses Move and Enhance in the training sequences on Dagobah (no argument here)
• Luke uses Foresee (recently purchased, likely with one Duration, maybe a Strength Upgrade) during his training while also lifting rocks/Artoo. He got a really good roll, activated Duration a couple extra times, and thus say several days into the future, but not getting any details from his own vision other than "my friends are in pain." Yoda, having maxed out the Foresee power tree, is able to glean far more details, such as location and how long it will be before those events transpire. But Yoda's also savvy enough to know that just because he saw a vision of the future doesn't mean it's set in stone (and could be the GM trying to warn Luke's player not to become too reliant upon his newly acquired power to solve various campaign problems).
• Luke uses the "Force Leap" Control Upgrade from Enhance to make an "impossible" leap out of the carbon freezing pit. The rest of his acrobatics are entirely plausible and can be covered with the Enhance basic power, the Control Upgrade to affect Coordination checks, and then a rank each in Athletics and Coordination, as he's probably got Brawn and Agility at 3 each (minimum) at this point.
• The "I am your father" scene is more likely to be Luke using Perception (particularly with a couple ranks of the Uncanny Senses talent for some Boost dice) against what he hopes is a Deception check on Vader's part, trying to spot the lie. Too bad Vader wasn't lying about that part.
• Luke uses telepathy Leia to come get him. This is a power we really haven't seen yet, though it could also be a case of the GM allowing Luke's player to spend the last Light Side Destiny Point the party has with his Sense power and their sibling connection (though only the GM knows about that part) being the justification. The GM later spends a couple Dark Side Destiny Points, leaving one available for Artoo's player to spend on his Mechanics check to get the Falcon's hyperdrive working again.

Ep VI -

• Luke uses Influence repeatedly to get into Jabba's Palace; needing just the basic power if the two Gammoreans are just treated as a small minion group, and then uses the "affect thoughts" Control Upgrade on Bib (successfully) and Jabba (unsuccessfully).
• Against the Rancor, Luke simply uses his Sense Control Upgrades to make himself harder to hit and his throw with the skull a lot more accurate.
• At the Pit of Carkoon, again he activates both Sense Control Upgrades (likely while being put into position to be pushed into the Sarlacc pit). Enhance gets used to Force Leap from one skiff to the next, then from the second skill onto the sail barge, possibly dropping the offensive Sense Control Upgrade to ensure he succeeds, as he's probably got Force Rating 3 at this point, so he has no problem with keeping the defensive upgrade going to ensure he doesn't take too many hits.
• Detecting Vader is a plot device element, possibly of Han rolling a Despair on his Deception check to get past Imperial security and land on Endor.
• Luke mostly relies on his PIloting (Planetary) skill, maybe with the Control Upgrade from Enhance , as well as Sense 's Control Upgrades to boost his defensive and offensive prowess, particularly when he squares off against that remaining speeder bike with just his lightsaber.
• Luke's probably still trying to keep under Vader's radar, and probably isn't just blindly searching in the Force for Leia. She also could just simply be out of his range for Sense , and after what his first usage of Foresee lead to, is quite possibly gunshy about relying on that power, particularly if he's not confident enough that he can control what he'll see if he does try.
• Luke and Vader are simply using social skills (Luke using Charm, Vader using Coercion) to get the other to come over to the other side. Neither one succeeds, but Luke manages a Triumph, which the GM lets him spend to plant a seed of doubt in Vader, and pays off big in a few scenes...
• Luke uses a Force leap to get out of Vader's immediate range during the fight on the second Death Star, but mostly sticks to Sense 's Control Upgrades for defense and offense, along with whatever defensive talents he's picked up from his Jedi specializations

The only things really missing from the above list are Vader's Force choke (though I guess you could fall back on Influence if one must) and the Emperor's Force lightning, which could just simply be a narrative effect or something special the GM cooked up to pull a nasty surprise on Luke's player.

Luke also uses Force Choke in VI on the Gamorrean guards, but he's pretty clearly not doing it as strongly as Vader -- either because he can't, or he won't. Is that him using some prudent dark Force points, or is there a way to activate that using light points?

Only influence requires dark points...

And as long as he's not killing them, it's not a clear dark-side act.

@Donovan - your threshold for "plausible" acrobatics is well into the "Way too cinematic for me without forcepowers" range. Especially with all the wire work used to film it.

Donovan, do you consider that when you target a minions group with the Force, still apply the same combat-minion rules? (Influence, Move...)

Aramis,

Apparently we've watched some very different movies. That or I'm more willing to accept that "using the Force" in the sense of the story doesn't automatically equal "activating a Force Power."

There are normal people with exceptional training that can do quite a lot of Luke's fancy acrobatics without any supernatural powers to fall back upon. Tony Jaa for instance (from the films Ong Bak and The Protector) is capable of some pretty crazy stuff, and does it without wires or the multiple special effects aids that other action stars require. Jackie Chan as well (yes, it's extensively choreographed, but it still takes a lot of skill to pull those kinds of moves off, particularly his quick-climbs). There are undoubtedly Olympic-level athletes that can make Luke in the films look like a clumsy oaf, and again all they've got is rigorous training.

In game terms, Luke's player used "well, he's a Jedi and using the Force" as the justification for flowery descriptions of the effects of his making successful Athletics and Coordination checks. The training sequence on Dagobah with Yoda on his back was simply showcasing Luke purchasing the Enhance power and then buying a bunch of the Control Upgrades.

The only things really missing from the above list are Vader's Force choke (though I guess you could fall back on Influence if one must) and the Emperor's Force lightning, which could just simply be a narrative effect or something special the GM cooked up to pull a nasty surprise on Luke's player.

I expect Force & Destiny will include at least one more Force Power, possibly two. "Manipulate" could represent Force Choke and Heal, where another being's body is being directly affected; while "Manifest" could represent Force energy used in Force Lightning and illusions.

One doubt, Enhace power (Leap) also is used for prevent damage from falling distances? In Clone Wars 1x05 (not sure) even the young Ashoka and Anakin jump about 1.000 meters (3.000 feets) without taking any damage.

Jedi seems that doesn't have problems with high places XD

One doubt, Enhace power (Leap) also is used for prevent damage from falling distances? In Clone Wars 1x05 (not sure) even the young Ashoka and Anakin jump about 1.000 meters (3.000 feets) without taking any damage.

Jedi seems that doesn't have problems with high places XD

It'd either involve a ton of as-yet unprinted upgrades or it's all for TV dramatic effect and the authors of this mechanics system don't intend it to be replicable in this game.

One doubt, Enhace power (Leap) also is used for prevent damage from falling distances? In Clone Wars 1x05 (not sure) even the young Ashoka and Anakin jump about 1.000 meters (3.000 feets) without taking any damage.

Jedi seems that doesn't have problems with high places XD

I doubt that sort of thing will be covered, at least not in AoR.

If anything, FFG seems to be sticking to the more "grounded" approach to Force usage that the movies (original and prequels alike) had. Closest the films had to something like that was Anakin diving out of his 'borrowed' speeder in Attack of the Clones, but we really don't have a reliable means to determine just how far he fell during that stunt. And movies are notorious for making falls seem to last longer than they should (Point Break's mid-air conversation between Keanu Reeves and Patrick Swazye being a major culprit).

Under the rules for Enhance's "Force Leap", I'd say Anakin could have spent his Action to activate the power to make a vertical leap down, and generated enough Force points (possibly by converting a few dark side pips as well) to trigger the Range Upgrade enough times to increase the range to Extreme; he'd need a total of 4 Force Points for that stunt, which is doable if he's rolling 3 Force Dice on the attempt (which is possible for him to have, as he's supposed to on par with a Jedi Knight in terms of power at that point).

I am a firm believer in a "small force" meaning I do not believe that there are numerous disparate force powers out there. Most of what is shown in the films can be explained by the powers we already have.

I always thought Force Choke was just the move power being used over a long distance. All vader needs to do is use the force to obstruct someone's airway to strangle them or he could pinch off a main artery to the brain and make them stroke out.

I wonder if we will have the ability to do Force Choke over a comm signal – ala. Vader in Empire.

Tashiro31 I agree that some powers can me represented with some imagination with the actual ones. Maybe they focus on more heroic and cinematic powers, but I won't discard the possibility to expand the existing ones or create a few more specific too.

Tashiro31 I agree that some powers can me represented with some imagination with the actual ones. Maybe they focus on more heroic and cinematic powers, but I won't discard the possibility to expand the existing ones or create a few more specific too.

I would expect at least two more - an "Aid Another" type power, and an Energy Control. Aid Another is entrenched in the public consciousness (whether or not it's what Ben was doing in Ep IV while leaning over the unconscious Luke, who then immediately comes to after ben touches his temples...), and Energy Control of some form is beyond the scope of the 5 current powers, and we see it used two different ways on screen - force lighting, and Vader absorbing the blaster bolts from Han's shoots.

That would be a nice set

I understand that Move Object (Ranged Damage version) can be transformed into some kind of "Force Slam" but I would prefer a few concrete powers. But in general therms and until the moment, the powers sets created are just awesome

I suspect Force and Destiny is where the stuff from the prequels and clone wars cartoon will be. Long falls and all that jazz. The first 2 books are from when force use was rudimentary for the heroes.

I saw Ben on the Death Star just using Sleight of Mind for boost dice to get away from tractor beam controls.

Honestly, there isn't much (except Force Lightning and Telepathy) I can't see recreated with the Force talents and existing powers. Vader's Force Choke even could be nothing more than final Move upgrade as he range Brawls you. If they make it a power, I suspect it'll be Force Assault and then with upgrades you can make it more the TK crush or trick it out to be the lightning. With a descriptive system, how many damaging powers do you need? Especially when you have the free form spend force points as you wish to activate purchased upgrades, a character isn't locked into 'I activate this power so it HAS to shoot lightning'. Looking at Enhance it covers Force leap, to Jedi ability to survive in a toxic gas room (Episode 1) to Force Pilot stuff that hits on major EU points, and also has the I'm an unarmed ninja ability.

Enhance goes a long way in my book to give the 'Force user' feel. Since it doesn't require a separate action (except potentially Force Leap) it just gives that the Force flows through you feel.

On the Death Star shot, I saw that as the Sense upgrade plus Luke being warned to turn off his targeting computer which actually was going to provide a downgrade rather than an upgrade as it was not capable of making the shot. (As Wedge speculated in the briefing)

Vader's Force Choke even could be nothing more than final Move upgrade as he range Brawls you.

But not choking through the comm. I'm still waiting to see them do that.

Vader's Force Choke even could be nothing more than final Move upgrade as he range Brawls you.

But not choking through the comm. I'm still waiting to see them do that.

One method could be Influence, with the Magnitude Upgrades activated enough times to go to Extreme Range (they were on the same ship) and the base power itself triggered multiple times. Ozzel's likely a Rival at best, so any strain he suffered would be applied to his Wound Threshold. Give Vader a couple of rounds, and he could very easily take out Ozzel that way as he's probably rolling at least 4 Force Dice, if not 5 of them, giving him plenty of Force Points to work with given he's a dark side, and he may even have been willing to take some strain damage himself to convert any light side pips so as to drive the point home that he was sick of Ozzel's incompetence.

It's not exactly elegant and not precisely a satisfying solution, but it is possible.