A friend brought this up a while ago, and I dismissed it then. Now I bring it before you, because it would just be so cool if it worked.

Does Mark spend less time lost in time and space? The rules for being lost in time and space state:

"Any Investigator who is lost in time and space is immediately moved to the Lost in Time and Space area of the board. The investigator is now delayed, and the player should place the investigator marker on its side. The investigator loses his next turn, remaining in the Lost in Time and Space area. The player may only stand his investigator marker up during the movement phase. On the following turn, at the start of the upkeep phase, the player may move his investigator to any location or street area of his choice in Arkham."

Mark, of course, says you can't be delayed. I dismissed it, in part I suppose because it didn't seem like he should be treated any differently when it came to being lost. Furthermore, the rules do say that he loses his turn, which is not what his ability prevents. On the other hand, it works flavorfully, as he would have the drive to get back to where he's supposed to be. The question is whether being delayed is just to serve as a passage through time in terms of knowing you have served the lost turn, or if it's actual rule text. Is the time served in LiTaS relevant to whether your character marker is standing up? Or do you still skip the turn? More and more, it seems to me like he just ignores the lost turn.

It would make his ability come in handy marginally more often. It would have the side effect of pretty much being better than Sister Mary's ability, except when it comes to cases like Yog-Sototh or Yig.

What do you think?

I'm a big fan of the Soldier, partly because my group always played that his ability does let him spend less time LiTaS.

The way the LiTaS rules are worded makes me think it's one of those times when the meaning of the term is re-iterated just in case you've missed the point - so the rule doesn't mean anything more than 'you're delayed'. I think this was addressed in an FAQ at one point.

Also, if anyone is wondering, the words 'stay here next turn' (quite common on OW cards) are considered to have the exact same meaning as 'you are delayed' and Mark Harrigan is immune to them too. That's also in an FAQ somewhere I think.

thecorinthian said:

+1 A quick exit from LiTaS is a nice benefit of Mark's ability.

No, I think Mark suffers just as long as anyone else. He can't be delayed, sure, but he must still "lose his next turn."

Even though the rules do say "delayed," I think you're supposed to turn the character on its side to remind you how long you've been in there.

However, if you guys are right, and you're just supposed to be delayed, then he can get a quick escape and that is awesome—but the wording "lose your next turn" would then be incorrect.

Is it possible that he's not delayed and comes back next upkeep—but he still has to lose his next turn? That sounds a little...weird. But it's possible I guess.

problem here is that the rules were written of course, at a time when Mark Harrigan didn't exist. Being delayed in LiTS and losing your next turn were effectively synonomous.

Now they are not. Part of me feels that not being LiTS is Sister Mary's Schtik, and shouldn't be given to Mark. However, there are some things that SM would still be immune to that Mark wouldn't. SM is never devourered if the ancient one awakens while she is "LiTS". Mark could be. The effects of Yig and Yog Sototh wouldn't apply to SM either, but could still hurt Mark. In the end, a pretty raw deal for SM ability-wise if you let Mark not be delayed in LiTS.... but we were used to that.

The other part of me screams that the rules specifically say that an investigator LiTS is delayed . And I really don't think that the 'lose your next turn' part of the text was intended as a clarification, it was simply a re-iteration. That seems to put things in Mark's favor as far as I'm concerned.

-awp

So, he comes back 1 turn earlier then everyone else. What is the big deal? Sometimes things just work in your favor.

I don't see how he comes back sonner?

LiTaS= Loss your next turn and delayed.

Mark would just loss his next turn... the only way I can think where him not being delayed is helpful while being LiTaS is the Missing People Return Mythos card.

In the "Official Answers from Kevin Wilson" thread he says:

Stay here next turn (09/12/06)
Mechanically, stay here next turn is identical to delayed. I believe what happened is that I came up with the "delayed" terminology late in development and then the "stay here next turn" texts slipped past me. So, the soldier is immune to "stay here next turn" as well as "delayed". In the future, I'll be more careful to use "delayed".

---

Is there a difference between "lose a turn" (like the LiTaS rules say) and "stay here next turn?" If so, then perhaps Mark is stuck there for a turn after all. It's interesting too that the rules say the only thing you can do in LiTaS is to stand the delayed investigator up during the next Movement phase which implies the investigator gets no Upkeep phase (no retainer, blessing/curse checks, etc.) that turn.

This is similar to being arrested where the investigator is delayed and "completely skips his next turn" except for standing up during the next Movement phase (i.e., implying no Upkeep and no Encouter in the Police Station that turn).

It would be nice to get a ruling on this. I think we know that being delayed does not cause one to skip an Other World encounters or (probably) stop a fight with a Child of the Goat after a missed combat check.... so it's looking more and more likely to me that Mark does get stuck for a turn in LiTaS. :-(

"Stay Here next Turn" = "Delayed"

Neither of those is equal to "Lose a Turn" harrigan spends as much time in LiTaS as everyone else because he lost a turn. Getting out of a delay is not the same as gaining back your turn.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a card tells you to “lose your next turn,” does this
mean skip all phases, including Upkeep?
A: Yes. Note that this is different from being told to “stay
here next turn,” which means you are delayed.

Wow, ok! Not much ambiguity there, after all. Cheers Coltsfan.

Suddenly the Soldier is less good! Next you'll be telling me that the Handyman's infinite focus doesn't let me alter other people's skill sliders, or that Dexter Drake isn't allowed to draw spells from a nearby Magic The Gathering deck. Where will it end?!

Yes, I think Gamura's citing of "Missing People Return" is the only thing that would be different for Mark than everyone else. If it occurs on the first turn anyone's LiTas, they will come back delayed. Mark would come back not delayed.

Yes, thanks ColtsFan!

[note to self: read FAQ before opening mouth]

Yes, I was aware of that ruling, but I still posed the question. And like I had said, I played it that way too. But I still wonder if it's not meant to be that he spends less time there, for the reasons posted above. "Lose your next turn", as mentioned, is the reason I had played it that way. I dunno. Might be a target for a house rule. Then again, we're pretty big on getting it as close to the rules as we can, so probably not.

Whereas I do agree with ColtsFan, and indeed play it the same way--that "delayed" and "lose your next turn" operate differently--I still find the whole paragraph suspect. If getting LiTaS forces you to lose your next turn, why do they even bother with delayed? For those few instances that players MIGHT be tossed out of LiTaS during the Mythos Phase on the same turn they went in? That just sounds like the paragraph is half-baked.

I don't really have an argument; I just want someone higher up to explain why they felt the need to confuse us by putting the status of "delayed" and "lose your next turn" on Investigators at the same time. For that matter, I find the Arrested paragraph just as half-baked. And none of this would have likely ever come up if it weren't for Mark, proving still that backwards-compatibility in AH can be a real bi...uh, bear.

jgt7771 said:

Erich Weiss is sad you blatantly ignored him . What did he do to you?

Dam said:

Stopped showing up when all the expansions got mixed together. He neglected me first.

Tibs said:

Which odds are better? Say 4 investigator game, random draw, Mark being 1 of the 4 vs 11 random allies out of total 34 (?), Erich Weiss is among them?

The chance of Mark Harrigan being one of four randomly drawn Investigators is 12,5%.

The odds of Erich Weiss being one of the 11 allies, on the other hand, is 32,3529412%.

However, even if it's a higher possibillity for Erich being among the allys than Mark being one of four Investigators, even though Erich might be available, this doesn't imply that he'll show up during the game....

Vitus_Prem said:

EW is a pretty good Ally (IMO). People who spend trophies on allies (not my style) will probably pick him fairly early.

Dam said: Erich Weiss is sad you blatantly ignored him . What did he do to you?

Tibs said: Stopped showing up when all the expansions got mixed together. He neglected me first.

Dam, you have a point. And it doesn't surprise me that the Advocate of Curse of the Dark Pharaoh would be the one to make it.

Unfortunately, Tibs has a point too. And one that better reflects my personal situation. I just haven't seen Erich in some time.

jgt7771 said:

Being "delayed" (tipping your character on its side) while losing your turn is simply a reminder. So, when you stand your character up during the movement phase, you can take your next turn as normal.

So, a bit of a digression, I admit... but considering the trend of this thread so far, I think this is a legitamate question.

If someone is LiTS and the "missing people return!" mythos card is drawn, are investigators who are returned to arkham by this card still Delayed/ Losing a turn? My common sense tells me no, of course not. There would be no point to this card if that were the case, as it wouldn't make any difference if you were losing a turn in LiTS or if you were losing a turn in Arkham. However, following arguments in this thread to their logical conclusions, than yes, you would still lose the turn.

Dam said:

Nevermind Weiss being in the mix—what are the chances of drawing the one encounter that allows you to attempt (see: fail) to get him, out of 31 (soon to be 35) cards?

Back when Dark Pharaoh was my only expansion, for like the 50 games we played, we never benefit from that Mythos card that gives Witch and Warlock trophies to the player who had Weiss as an ally. I should add that as a "special event" on the stats page

jgt7771 said:

I already wrote Kevin about this a long time ago. I was curious to know if it meant you lost a turn and then got delayed after that - in effect a 2-turn loss.

He stated it was just meant as a "lose your turn" and the "delayed" part was meant more as a reminder to keep track of it. He did not mean to confuse the issue by mixing explanations. But you are simultaneously delayed and lose a turn. Delay means you skip Phase 2, Lose a turn means you skip Phases 1, 3, and 4.

FWIW, a similar mess exists with getting arrested. It also states you are delayed and then goes on to say you completely skip the next turn. But then goes on to say, move during your next turn to go from the jail to the police station. Again, the point was to use "delayed" as a reminder to skip your turn. And you have the added step of sliding your investigator over one space when you stand it up. net effect is one lost turn, that's it.

awp832 said:

Moving from one location to another while delayed has no effect on your delayed status. So if you were still delayed (i.e. moved to LiTaS on the same turn this Mythos was drawn), you would still be delayed when you got back to Arkham.

If you were already undelayed (i.e., you went LiTaS on the previous turn), then you would go back undelayed. In this second case, you really don't gain anything as you would be coming back during the very next upkeep phase anyway.