We can open a new post with the next theme: the most treachery hated card.

In all the game, we have very bad experiencies about one treachery, and you finally hate that card a lot.

Which is this one, or various? (without thinking about Test of Will neither Eleanor )

My vote is for:

You are preparing the combat against trolls and just before it is revealed: aaagh!

I don't know that it's the worst treachery by any stretch, but I really, really hate Southron Support. Doomed 3 is often annoying enough, as it shows up in quests like Into Ithilien where I'm trying to carefully engage enemies when I can handle them, but then adding two more? Argh. I always seemed to be doing well when this would turn up, and it almost always turned things against me. Just a nightmare of a card!

Anything from Rhosgobel is nasty, basically got fed up with that quest. With an encounter deck so big, one would think I wouldn't get an Exhaustion and Swarming Insects within the 3rd turn of every game I played. Woof.

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

For most horrible (with more than one player, anyway):

The worst treachery card.

But the best shadow effect

In no particular order; though sleeping sentry is probably the worst in the game.

I choose these as they also have horrible shadow effects.

The worst treachery card.

But the best shadow effect

Yep. This card is horrible for all solo players. But that's not all. Even worse:

plus

Why are both these cards in the same set? If you don't have a mono tactics deck, one of these two will punish you in a way that ususally means "game over". Drawing the Orc Vanguard early in the game doesn't give you many options to counter it. Because you can't play no cards no more.

As for The Master's Malice - why did't they word it "deal 1 damage plus X where X is the number of players"?

Sleeping Sentry is actually in dude: if you dont have any exhausted character, the second part not triggers. So if you see it is coming (by scrying), you could make the choice of loss the quest no commiting nobody (or use unexpected courage, etc) to avoid this treachery.

Pitfall: when you are first player not forget quest a chump ally

Lost in the city: i chose and add the City Street copies to avoid his surge

Sleeping Sentry is actually in dude: if you dont have any exhausted character, the second part not triggers.

*sigh* I am still prickly about that ruling. Gotta be a mistake...

Not the worst, but one that drives me up the wall. It always seems to show up for me towards the end when I'm trying to knock out one last stage.

My vote is for sleeping sentry.

I think people have covered most of the super evil treacheries in the game. So I'll pitch in to add some of the most annoying:

and

How many times have you gotten saddled with two copies of Watchful Eyes in the first round? Ughh. And Necromancer's Reach, all that little plink-plink-plink damage adds up, and makes you afraid to commit Hobbits to the quest.

The worst treachery card.

But the best shadow effect

And the best treachery if you play monosphere: it becomes a Gildor Counsel

This card is very nasty. Dificult that it happens, but, for example, last time i played in Redhorn Gate, it did:

When it forces to you to pass to 3a-3b (and Caradhras becomes active location -because Caradhras makes -1wp to each commited character, and 3b writes that all characters with 0wp is discarded). It is very bad, because you loss all characters that has not 2wp at least.

PD: the idea is very good, and it seems real. When you are in the climb of the mountain, and it gets an avalanche, almost all characters die. Yes, real.

Not the worst, but one that drives me up the wall. It always seems to show up for me towards the end when I'm trying to knock out one last stage.

Surge, in adition. Pffffffff...

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

Wow, captain counts... i didnt know it.

PD: i hate it because, in adittion, if you have any enemy trapped, you loss the trap.

The necromancer's reach is the earliest card to give that "be careful, that one sucky card is in this encounter deck" feel. Treachery that ends the game right there, particularly punishing the multi sphere solo deck, is annoying, but I find I wouldn't really lose without it which is important. I think this is a big part as to why there is so little treachery cancellation, and probably why there shouldn't be. That said, orc vanguard and southron support both feel like total disasters every time they pop out.

My vote is for:

I second this - especially when I have my Song Cards in play... so annoying.

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

I have seen this ruling referred to online, but I haven't actually seen the ruling itself - do you have a link? Presumably you would also count "To the Tower", by this ruling, since it is also in the staging area and cannot leave it.

I struggle to understand the rationale of this ruling giving the "Then" clause for the second sentence.

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

I have seen this ruling referred to online, but I haven't actually seen the ruling itself - do you have a link? Presumably you would also count "To the Tower", by this ruling, since it is also in the staging area and cannot leave it.

I struggle to understand the rationale of this ruling giving the "Then" clause for the second sentence.

Caleb answers by e-mail, so there would never be a link.

I e-mailed him to ask about To The Tower, specifically, and will post his response once I hear back.

The "equal number" part can be confusing; does it refer to the equal number you counted or the equal number you shuffled? Caleb ruled it's equal to the number you counted, not shuffled. The card could be clearer, for sure.

My rule of thumb is, when in doubt, go for what makes it more difficult for the players. There are lots of folks trying to contort cards to make them do what they want it to do (Hands Upon the Bow is a prime example), or even this one. So, basically, if it makes it harder for me, I'll typically go with that interpretation. If it gets clarified that I was wrong later, all the better!

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

I have seen this ruling referred to online, but I haven't actually seen the ruling itself - do you have a link? Presumably you would also count "To the Tower", by this ruling, since it is also in the staging area and cannot leave it.

I struggle to understand the rationale of this ruling giving the "Then" clause for the second sentence.

Caleb answers by e-mail, so there would never be a link.

I e-mailed him to ask about To The Tower, specifically, and will post his response once I hear back.

I meant a forum link where someone had posted an email from Caleb - the normal way for these rulings to disseminate into the community.

I too have submitted a request for a ruling and will also post any response.

Regarding the "Then" clause, I was referring to this from the FAQ: "If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve. "

It seems to me that the first clause fails because you can't shuffle in Captains/To the Tower - therefore the "Then" clause does not resolve.

This whole issue is very murky at the moment (see the "Ered Nimrais" thread in the Rules forum).

I think people have covered most of the super evil treacheries in the game. So I'll pitch in to add some of the most annoying:

and

How many times have you gotten saddled with two copies of Watchful Eyes in the first round? Ughh. And Necromancer's Reach, all that little plink-plink-plink damage adds up, and makes you afraid to commit Hobbits to the quest.

Yeah those two used to be really high on my list of treacheries I really wanted to avoid but these days I seem to be able to handle them ok.

I think that most of my least liked individual treacheries cards have already been highlighted... except for local trouble:

At the time when I first encountered this treachery card I was massively favoring decks that included Elrond & Vilya & 2x unexpected courage to ready him for questing and defending and putting a card into play.

But its often the combinations of cards that really hurts... like getting both Necromancer's Reach and Dol Guldur Orcs together - insta killing Eowyn far too many times in the early days!

1) - The Masters malice (so often been game over, thanks for coming. Unless mono sphere)

2) - The power of Mordor (the times its shown up have been brutal! or confusing with captains... edit reading dain's post adds to brutality even if less confusing)

3) - Local trouble (I love Elven decks this sucks for Elrond or any other Hero that you want to ready a lot)

4) - Sleeping Sentry (though have seldom come across it)

5) - Wind-Whipped rain (only this low as I don't play the saga its in much... think my lip quivered the first time I lost all my attachments)

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

I have seen this ruling referred to online, but I haven't actually seen the ruling itself - do you have a link? Presumably you would also count "To the Tower", by this ruling, since it is also in the staging area and cannot leave it.

I struggle to understand the rationale of this ruling giving the "Then" clause for the second sentence.

Caleb answers by e-mail, so there would never be a link.

I e-mailed him to ask about To The Tower, specifically, and will post his response once I hear back.

I meant a forum link where someone had posted an email from Caleb - the normal way for these rulings to disseminate into the community.

I too have submitted a request for a ruling and will also post any response.

Regarding the "Then" clause, I was referring to this from the FAQ: "If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve. "

It seems to me that the first clause fails because you can't shuffle in Captains/To the Tower - therefore the "Then" clause does not resolve.

This whole issue is very murky at the moment (see the "Ered Nimrais" thread in the Rules forum).

While I know you don't believe me (yet), that is his ruling (I just can't find the e-mail). And the first clause can be satisfied - but the quest card trumps all for those cards that can't leave play. I just really don't see it as that confusing.

Now, if he says you count a captain but not To The Tower...then that really is confusing! Hahaha.

I vote for:

Not because it is necessarily the nastiest, but because:

- it makes a complete mess of the Siege of Cair Andros if it reshuffles the locations

- it's not clear how it works with the Captains/To the Tower in Morgul Vale

this has been answered by Caleb:

You count the Captains - but they cannot be removed - so it makes for an extra card revealed when this treachery shows up! i.e., you count the captain - but don't remove them.

I have seen this ruling referred to online, but I haven't actually seen the ruling itself - do you have a link? Presumably you would also count "To the Tower", by this ruling, since it is also in the staging area and cannot leave it.

I struggle to understand the rationale of this ruling giving the "Then" clause for the second sentence.

...and having this card playing multiple times due to a certain 'Lieutenant of mordor' being one of the new cards is even less fun!