Certainly not a game altering combo, but I happened to notice yesterday that the 0 cost Martell Refugee of the Citadel has the Maester trait. Couple that with Martell's Maester of War and suddenly you have a 0 cost 3 icon character on the board. Attach a bannermen to the refugee and now you have a 3 icon 0 cost vengeful character

Again not game altering... .but I thought pretty cool.

I'm sure many of you have already discovered this combo. If so how has it worked?

That's what I like about this game ... always finding something new.

Rob

Hmmmmm. It seems like a good enough combo. How much attachment control is there in the LCG? I know there was the bannerman specific events and what not. Also, I'd be weary of putting an attachment on something that could dissapear without my opponent even having to do anything. Although Queen Myrcella's Guard should make it pretty easy to win Dominance. All in all, I'd say it'd be pretty sweet, although Bringers of Law seem to be a bit better, albiet costing 3 more gold.

Before Lars comes in, I'll say it for him. "Brings of Law is neutral, so they're vulnerable to Men With No King." (Personally, I'm not sure MWNK have made neutral characters and locations excessively dangerous to play, at least at the level Lars seems to, but they do make you re-evaluate neutrals. Not to the level that First Snow made you re-evaluate anything with a printed STR of 2, but it's still there.) I would agree, though, that even at 3 gold, Bringer's of Law accomplishes what the three cards of this combo do in an easier fashion. They just carry different vulnerabilities. And, of course, they stand even if you win on defense....

The Maester trait on Refugees of the Citadel make them huge in Standard, if for no other reason than "powering up" Poison. They are some of my favorite Refugees. The Stark ones I like, too, because of the mil/int icon mix.

What is this Men with No King card? Mainn doesn't have it up at his site.

Mainn hasn't been updated for a while...here's a makeshift info centre whist we wait for Tzu to catch up to the rest of us.

Staton said:

F113: Men With No King (x3)
Neutral Character
Cost = 4
STR = 5
Icons = M, P
Traits = Army.
No attachments except Weapon.
Limited Response: After a Reinforcements event card is played, pay 2 gold to choose a character or location that does not have its owner’s House affiliation. Take control of that card. (Limit 1 Limited Response per round.)

ktom said:

why not? FS made you lose a 2str charcater or tow or three, but only once every 7 turns, and you knew once it happened it wasn't happening again for a while. FS didn't change deckbuilding drastically, you just had to decide if a 2str charcaters bonus was worth the risk or not and worse comes to worse you replaced it with a strong charcater...no real loss. Also, FS was only a minus to you not a minus to you and a plus to your opponet.

MwnK makes a neutral charcaters, neutral locations, or out of house charcaters/locations vurnerable every turn, is repeatable form turn to turn and really only requries the contorlling player to sit on 2 gold in the marshalling phase to at least pose the threat of MwnK. Now you have to decide to either A) hold onto that card in your hand thus wasting a deck spot, B) Take all nuetrals out of your deck and in LCG losing a lot of toolbox, or C) play it any way and risk a real advanatge being given to your opponet. I mean if Jaguen gto banned in Standard because you had to meta for him (i.e. throw in more character control) then MwnK is worse becuase they are non-unigue, gen be gotten back from the discard pile by an event that tirggers them (i.e. you should be running it anyway), can't be controlled by as much chacater control as Jaquen could (kneel doesn't stop the steal neither does fishing net, and milk can't go on it), and finally the only way to meta it is to run them yourself or pull out a ton of good cards and weaken your deck.

Staton: here is a summery of the reins events. there are 6 reinforcement events right now, 3 lose a challenge pay a gold to play this event and turn it into a charcater with the icon of the lost challenge stealth and renown. 2 seasonal events, lose any challange pay a gold and put an army with 4 str tricon and deadly into play. the last is Retreat and regroup play at start of challenges phase...it doesn;t need to say anything else, but it allwos you to get non-unigues out of discard pile if youu lose 2 or more challenges.

I generally agree with you, Lars - MwNK is a concern right now and looks ot be overpowered - but I think First Snow had more of an impact on the overall metagame. The difference being - MwNK does require a multiple card combo and spare gold to pull off, First Snow jsut asked you to flip a Plot. I am not defending MwNk by any means, but Ktom is right here - I am not evaluating neutrals the way i was 2 STR characters at this point.

Yet.

I need to see it in play more and I need to see how many neutrals I really rely on before can class this with First Snow. its still not a good idea to make permanent steal easily achievable. i'd probably be a lot more relaxed about this card if ti stole for the duration of the phase only.

First off, really seems overpowered stealing it forever. I think for a round would be plenty strong.

Second, no way this is worse than First Snow. First Snow you could, at best, guess when it was coming. You were wrong sometimes. This is on the table and you can see it and play around it, to a certain extent. Plus you have to pay to get the character out, and then you have to keep on paying to get cards. Not nearly as efficient as First Snow. Still, a pretty strong card. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle this when playing against it. Thankfully I never play with more than one or two neutral characters. I'm kinda pissed that this makes me want to take Fallow Fields out though. Damnit, I always end up taking that card out!

Thirdly, LCG REALLY needs some cancel. The Queen of Thorns would be a good reprint me thinks. I'm assuming the Reinforcements are house specific? If so, there is a theoretical 6 times you could trigger the army, not counting getting the events back. Which brings up the question, other than Lie for your King(which requires a traited plot that you could play once or twice a game), is there any other event/discard pile recursion? Selyse, I know. Other than that? Anyway, I'm thinking a few cards that canceled triggered effects would be nice. ~Also, looks like in LCG, CS Renly is the better Renly if you are playing him OOH.

Lastly, I'm glad I play Standard. heh.

Also, what does arena knight do? and is there a thread that lists all these cards and their abilities. I think the thread linked above just had names for the ones not on mainn's site.

Arena Knight is pretty awesome.

Baratheon

4 gold

M, P

3 STR

Knight

Vigilant

Arena Knight gains renown during power challenges.

Or something along those lines. Probably my favorite Vigilant character to date.

I agree with Staton - AHoTH QoT would be an excellent addition to LCG.

A solid handful of dual house cards in general wold be great right now. I think it could really help provide some variety if done right.

Staton said:

yes, but you don't play LCG, where neutrals or OOH can really help you. Look at LCG Theon he is a good card for stark and even cheap for them OOH (1 gold penatly not 2) and he is vunerable to MwnK. You see/heard about renown being at a priemuim, now Jon Snow (and Ghost) is no longer a good play. You can't run the streets as solid resources anymore. Not to mention the other power neutrals (selmy benjen dayne).

Staton said:

couldn't agree more.

Staton said:

nope, not house specific. With a season you get up to 15 triggers in your deck for it with 3 of them being free that also let you find a way to get them back from discard pile and the ones that cost an extra gold giving you up to nine 3 str charcaters w/ stealth and renown and up to three 4 str tricon armies with deadly.

Staton said:

Barriston Selmy...oh wait hes neutral....

I get that First Snow was a strong card to factor in when deckbuilding, but so is MwnK and unlike FS men with no king can do stuff for you during the game. Its only 5 STR in mil and pow.....it fuels seductive promise almost by itself. It makes it easier for you and harder for your opponet to win challenges and oh yeah if i don't want to use it it can help me win dominance (including the gold i saved). it, the reins, and the refugees is half a deck. Stick it in lannister and you get Weary Swordsmen which gives you some more gravy kneel effects when you play a reinforcement. FS was soemthing that i had to think about, but honestly if i put a smattering of 2 STR charcaters in my deck (veteran looters never got taken out of any of my decks, neither did expandable ally) i wouldn't be that significantly hurt.....i think one neutral or OOH character or location is an extreme risk right now (unless of course you have your own MwnK...) as its always a more then a negative swing against becuase it is a positive swing for your opponet.

people complain about certain cards that are in every deck...well this guy is the ultimate one of those too, the best counter to him is....him. So its run him or no OOH or neutrals and live with what every you in house stuff does....but in LCG that leaves a lot of holes. Heck with these guys i can take on classic decks that have OHH or neutrals (especially in melee) with an LCG build.

OK, I will concede to you that I don't really know how much of an impact he makes in LCG. Still, I hope they could solve the problem by printing answers rather than banning him. AHoTh QoT would really help. What other cards could they reprint that would help? Viper's Bite for Martell, for OOH stuff Put to the Question would be a good reprint, although it wouldn't help for neutrals. Greyjoy could have ARoK King Balon. Also Keeper of Oaths would be be a great reprint. I also want to see a reprint of Paper Shield, even though it wouldn't be helpful here.

Lars said:

BTW: As a counter to himself, he's very dependent on turn order. If both you and your opponent have one out, the end result will probably be that no one ever plays a Reinforcement - because your opponent always gets first Response to your Reinforcement event.

He is undoubtedly powerful. He undoubtedly makes you question how much you NEED any neutral. And he is undoubtedly a bigger deal in LCG than he is in Standard (where fewer neutrals and OOH are played, anyway). And maybe we have different experiences with First Snows and MWNK, but whereas even the threat of FS had people questioning the use of 2-STR characters, I have not seen people specifically avoiding neutrals because of the possibility of MWNK. That may change, but FS seemed to impact people's deckbuilding whether they thought they'd see the plot or not. MWNK doesn't seem to have had the same psychological impact. Yet.

I think MWNK is more comparable to Nightfire Convert for its impact so far. Of course, everyone should remember that got nerfed.

Also, I would like to see Trickery make a come back too. Trickery and Paper Shield would be nice to have around together again.

ktom said:

I have (last week one opponet took all of his neutrals out of his deck and another kept Selmy in his hand the whole game), in fact my deck has changed from a i want to shoot my gun deck to a let me just flash my gun to make it harder for my opponet. I think it would be a big mistake to run neutrals or OOH at gencon right now too. without a regional season its ahrd to see the impact of these cards in a large scale.

People complained that LCG cardpool was limited, and one of the answers to that was OOh and neutrals....this just poops all over that idea and limits you more then the card pool does. FS i made a choice, awesome ability verse 2 str. Worse comes to worse i lose the awesome ability, MwnK i can't make that same choice becuase worse comes to worse i give my opponet that awesome ability. ANd i keep coming back to FS didn't do anything for the person who played it. MwnK can be played. not steal a character all game and still be very useful to you. FS is useless if there are zero 2 str or lower in opponets deck (and opponet is not limited if his gold curve is set up right)

Turn order isn't that big of a deal, he is non-unigue so you can have two out and not worry about turn order if its that big a deal to play a rein event. People complain about Bear island becuase running no neutrals hurts them....well bear island decks are a good idea now, so i guess thats a good thing about MwnK.

And can someone tell me why these guys are less of a problem then Jaquen? Especially since Milk of the poppy/Fishing net would have stopped Jaquen's power abilty where as those have no effect on MwnK? If the answer is because its a combo...well i think the combo makes it worse. With the reins event at the least you save a gold to steal a character or you pay 3 for your own charcater and the theft of another...

Really I think the only problem with the card is that its a permanent steal. How about it just gets changed to "take control of character until end of round." or something? It'd still be really strong without being overpowered.

Lars said:

Who was the opponent? I'm not sure how to evaluate the efficacy til I know if it was Jeff, Kevin.... or Ser Lannister.

lmao. kev took his cards out, jerry (silentsword) held selmy and serlannister cried all the way home.

Lars, who is playing Greyjoy in your meta? Winter Marauders will take care of MWNK every time, and would be my first hit with that card every time I won a challenge with them. Valar is going to knock them out of play, Milk is going to nerf them, and you still need to have gold. Again, a Winter Greyjoy deck can severly hurt a person replying on MWNK. And when Kings of the Sea comes out, Greyjoy stands a good chance of becoming the dominant house in the format. They are overlooked alot right now because of their lack of core cards.

I'll admit that the permanent steal is a nasty effect -- and because of that this card alone begs for Keeper of Oaths to be reprinted in LCG. I ran that card in virtually every deck, and although we don't have On Raven's Wings anymore, we do have Summoning Season. I remember playing a game where my opponent won an INT challenge agaisnt me with the Intrigue Gambit plot that "stole" characters, and with a claim of two got my Army of Scorpions and Lord Ander's Honor Guard. Guess what happened next turn? Perfect card for any pernament steal effects.

JerusalemJones said:

well until King of Seas comes out here is my answer to GJ. 1) run summer (it helps with the 'gold issue' too) 2) milk Marauders as unlike MwnK they can take attachments (milk isn't the answer at all for MwnK, no attachments except weapon, which oddly enough allows the control to protect them from icy catapult...). 3) valar is a minor inconvience since they are non unique. 4) even if i don't run summer my MwnK makes it really hard for your Marauders to win a challenge against me, you can put fishing net on them i guess, but what else do you have besides marauders and fihing net to help you win challenges? winter armada? now your spending at least 7 gold to negate one 4 gold charcater. if its that big of a concern i'll go out of bara and run maester cressen, or better yet out of lanni and kneel the heck out of the maraduers (with either castellan or weary swordsmen or both...).

Until i see the king of sea pack GJ doesn't add anything to the equation that makes MwnK have less of an impact. and currently them and Martell are at a huge disadvantage with MwnK in the environment. W/out MwnK we might have seen a Martell deck or two at GenCon, and i hope king of seas doesn't get delayed.

While he is important enough to make you rethink putting high-priced nuetrals in your deck (I admit to taking all that are more than 2 gold out of decks - which says something), and I think that is bad for the game, he isn't worst than Jaquen. Jaquen singlehandedly won games, while these guys are like Black Walder - a bit of a deterrant than a power card.

Any card that can be fairly useless and you have to put cards in your deck to use him...and might actually have a HUGE drawback if your opponent is playing them as well...?

I wouldn't mind it if they had more in-house cards legal.

But I agree with the gist - he is horrible for the game...is that a reason for nerfing? Obviously or my Lanni deck would be drawing a lot more, and Jaquen would be finishing games for me Any card that makes other cards basically useless I will never cry over seeing go away...

Rings, I still maintain that the reason PC got banned was simply because of the lack of Kings and Queens in the environment. That is the issue that made this card so prevalent out-of-house; in Lannister it is just one more way for them to draw cards. I hope that when KotS comes out, the Cache becomes allowed again.

Jaqen was a bad card for one reason "Jaqen H'gar gets +1 STR for each power on him." Without that line, Jaqen was an irritant, but not overly broken. To truly abuse him, you had to take the Voltron route. And people tend to forget that every traitor in 5KE hit him. Not a great form of control for JH, but still one more tool against him.

I believe that MwnK can be a threat, but I guess our meta must not be uber competitive because all though we all seem to be running the card, it rarely makes a difference in games. Of course, I also know that I have't built a strong deck as of late, but I'd rather see how this card affects the meta-game before it gets hit with the Nerf Stick. I'd rather see the game investigate all avenues of control over the card before it gets Nerfed.

Staton said:

Didn't I JUST say this on page one of this thread? Your back two days.....

And yeah :

Any card that can be fairly useless and you have to put cards in your deck to use him...and might actually have a HUGE drawback if your opponent is playing them as well...?

But I agree with the gist - he is horrible for the game...is that a reason for nerfing? Obviously or my Lanni deck would be drawing a lot more, and Jaquen would be finishing games for me Any card that makes other cards basically useless I will never cry over seeing go away...

QFT