I've been reading the CRB at every opportunity since it arrived last week. I've also been reading the backlog of threads in the SW EoE forum (even trolling through the Beta forum archive), and have encountered a number of threads in which some have opined that the Brawn/Toughness-based soak mechanic puts too much importance on that particular characteristic. I've read topics titled "Dealing With Too Much Soak" and other similar threads.

What I'm hoping to do is initiate a discussion that can break down the nuances of the Core Rules in relation to the following proposal:

Would it be possible to remove Brawn from the soak mechanic without drastically overhauling other aspects of the Core Rules?

An example I have in mind, to start the discussion, would be to remove Brawn from the soak mechanic, and reduce weapon damage ratings by 3 (to a minimum of zero). I've read through lengthy threads about Pierce and Breach, and I'm also aware there are mods that increase Pierce ratings and armor soak values, so I'm looking for quite a bit more than "No, it can't be done."

What kind of impact does this have on the interaction of weapon qualities such as Pierce? Or Breach? Or interacting Talents?

I'm still flipping back-and-forth in my CRB, so I've yet to do anything near the likes of play-testing the idea (merely thought exercises of dry-running it through my brain). I was hoping I might get some input from Donovan Morningfire, LethalDose, gribble, Bladehate, and more of the forum's other "heavy guns."

Thank you for participating in the discussion.

I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but why not play the game the way it's written for a while?

This way you could evaluate whether you feel there is an issue with Brawn-based Soak in your own personal experience, rather than just because some people posted threads about it on the forum?

1 I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but why not play the game the way it's written for a while?

2 This way you could evaluate whether you feel there is an issue with Brawn-based Soak in your own personal experience, rather than just because some people posted threads about it on the forum?

1 I intend to.

2 In the event it does become an issue I would prefer to be prepared, hence this discussion. I'm not panicked, if that's what you're thinking.

Thank you for participating.

I think the hazard of high soak has been overstated; I've been running a game for almost a year now and while my heroes are pretty buffed up, you can easily get around soak by presenting challenges that don't rely entirely on how much damage someone can take. You can't soak a bad hand in Sabacc....

If you're just going to have a run & run campaign, you could certainly buff our baddies up a little and give them some heavier weapons - a light repeating blaster in the right hands laughs at soak. Combine that with a few talents and some other primo gear and you'll have your own hit squad to give them a run for their money

I know this has kinda veered off topic from your original intent but it's my hope that I can help defuse the situation here - I just don't agree there's a problem and I'm hoping to save you some work.

I think the hazard of high soak has been overstated; I've been running a game for almost a year now and while my heroes are pretty buffed up, you can easily get around soak by presenting challenges that don't rely entirely on how much damage someone can take. You can't soak a bad hand in Sabacc....

If you're just going to have a run & run campaign, you could certainly buff our baddies up a little and give them some heavier weapons - a light repeating blaster in the right hands laughs at soak. Combine that with a few talents and some other primo gear and you'll have your own hit squad to give them a run for their money

I know this has kinda veered off topic from your original intent but it's my hope that I can help defuse the situation here - I just don't agree there's a problem and I'm hoping to save you some work.

I'm not sure why you feel there will be "a situation" to "defuse." I completely understand that you don't agree there is a problem. However, I said nothing that needing agreeing with- I never indicated I have a problem with the system as-is. I merely indicated what I have read, and initiated a discussion thread.

I'm quickly getting the impression that initiating discussion is frowned upon.

Thank you for participating.

I'm not sure why you feel there will be "a situation" to "defuse." I completely understand that you don't agree there is a problem. However, I said nothing that needing agreeing with- I never indicated I have a problem with the system as-is. I merely indicated what I have read, and initiated a discussion thread.

I'm quickly getting the impression that initiating discussion is frowned upon.

Thank you for participating.

No no, my friend, it's not like that. I've seen a number of heated discussions turn south when they get to this topic, so I thought I'd speak up early. I'm sorry I came off inflammatory, it wasn't at all directed your way.

That said, I'm interested to see your test results; soak seems so ingrained into the combat mechanic that tearing it out is tantamount to tweezing nosehairs in my mind.

I also am of the mind the issue is only an issue for some and don't want the discussion to devolve into a pointless back and forth. I like the house rule from these boards that pierce represents the minimum amount of damage that will get through any soak. I encourage you to use the 1 minimum damage rule from WHFRP from FFG whereby anyone successfully hit will suffer one point of damage at least, regardless of soak. IMO you need not change anything at that point because if it at least one point of damage is caused it is fairly easy to set up minion groups to come up with the advantages for a critical hit. When the high soak player realizes he/she can lose a leg or an arm with very little buffing on your part they will begin to behave as they should and realize getting shot is bad.

I have to say I don't quite understand why some GMs feel as though if they don't cause damage to everyone of a certain %, they aren't challenging or more importantly entertaining their players.

To begin, I agree that the "Too much soak" is an issue for a select few, and doesn't seem to come up very often.

That said, I'd like to approach your points one by one and see what I can throw in.

Would it be possible to remove Brawn from the soak mechanic without drastically overhauling other aspects of the Core Rules?

Possible? Perhaps, but I find it rather unlikely. Allow me to go point-by-point with the rest of your post and then add other details.

An example I have in mind, to start the discussion, would be to remove Brawn from the soak mechanic, and reduce weapon damage ratings by 3 (to a minimum of zero). I've read through lengthy threads about Pierce and Breach, and I'm also aware there are mods that increase Pierce ratings and armor soak values, so I'm looking for quite a bit more than "No, it can't be done."

I have a rather large issue with this. First, all melee weapons except the Lightsaber are now +0 weapons. If you are ruling Brawn out of soak but leaving it with melee damage, you are giving very little reason to utilize any melee weapons.

To be specific, the only benefit of a melee weapon would be Defensive, Stun (if available), Pierce, and Vicious. Barehanded attacks already get Disorient, plus grapple rules, so they are becoming the superior approach; no weapons to be confiscated or stolen, and they are better than a truncheon! Additionally, if you are already removing Brawn from Soak, you are solely relying on armor, which means Pierce is now a HUGE benefit, as the best armor only has a soak of 2.

For blasters, you would make the Holdout Blaster a paltry 2 damage (which would be stopped by heavy armors) while the bigger guns will still cut through unarmored foes.

Another kick in the teeth: some of the bigger weapons can, in theory, damage a small vehicle (or at least punch through a thick sheet of transparisteel) with a good roll. With this approach, you've greatly reduced the chances of this ever happening.

What kind of impact does this have on the interaction of weapon qualities such as Pierce? Or Breach? Or interacting Talents?

This approach actually would make qualities such as Pierce or Breach not only something to be sought after, but rather game-breaking.

For the number crunched example, a character who has maxed out Gadgeteer (Armor Master) and Marauder (two ranks of Enduring) would have a soak value of 6 while wearing Superior Heavy Battle Armor (and 3 defense with Improved Armor Master and a modification from Tinkerer, but that's neither here nor there), 7 if they have Implanted Armor. This armor combination will stop anything shy of a Heavy Blaster Rifle, but if you give a similarly number crunched wookiee (6 Brawn, 3 ranks of Feral Strength) a Vibro-ax, he's dishing out 10 damage with 2 Pierce. This means that at base, he's putting 5 wounds on the guy in the tin can.

Remember, this is with two characters with a boatload of XP. A more realistic approach would be a guy in padded armor vs a bloke with a vibroknife. In this situation, your 2 Soak becomes obsolete, and your armored guy is is really just being weighed down.

This means that pierce becomes almost vital to deal real damage to your opponents, and may tip the favor of the Brawn stat as it ensures that you'll get some damage through AND ensure that you'll hit more often.

As for the relating talents, this approach would make them even more sought after. As soak values lowered and weapons are also reduced to zero for melee, the only edge truly lies in getting these talents and using them.

I've omitted Breach from the discussion so far as there are very few weapons that use it. As Breach removed 10 (yes, TEN!) soak value on a personal level, this is huge. I sat down and ran the numbers, and without Cortosis involved, the best soak combo I've found is a 13 (Superior Heavy Armor, 6 Brawn, +1 Soak for an implant, Armor Master, 2 ranks of Enduring). At that point, you're done getting more soak mods without houseruling layering armor.

A lightsaber, even without Feral Strength being houseruled in, is hitting for 8 damage at base.

Breach was designed to be LETHAL. With reducing soak values, you're only making it more lethal.

All that said: removing Brawn from soak will require a reworking of Breach and Pierce qualities without being overpowered at the low end or required for the end game.

One last note on the Weapon Damage vs Soak debate: remember that Soak is rather static; you get your base from your Brawn, you can snag a very limited number of soak increases in talents, and maybe you can afford to get that insanely expensive armor. But once you hit the end, you're done.

Weapon wise, you can get a powerful weapon, give it a few mods, and you can rival the armor. . .and then when you start rolling a lot of successes, armor means next to nothing.

From what I've seen so far, the game has been rather lethal. Yes, some soak values are pretty high, but with the right weapons (blaster rifles instead of slugthrower pistols), right tactics (ambushing, aiming for unarmored portions), and the right tools (traps, using stun/ion/gas/fire), insane soak totals become a non-issue.

My table has average stats (3 Brawn is the toughest guy at the table) who is wearing a suit of Padded Armor (+2 soak). This puts his soak at a 5; when he's going toe to toe against Stormtroopers with blaster rifles, his armor is only going to do so much, but his vibro-ax with pierce is going to turn the tides against those stormies rather quickly.

Long-winded, I know, but I thought I'd put all of that out there to give you some food for thought before you begin playtesting something that may lead to more headaches and number crunching than what it is worth.

Yeah. Let's go ahead and shut this down.

My sincere thanks, everyone, for participating.

I'd like to make a comment real quick.

If you have a feeling or inkling that high soak might be an issue, then I think the REAL solution is not to reduce the effects of soak, but to introduce more opportunities for soak not to matter. In EOTE, and many many other RPGs out there, it's easy to get into situations where it's combat encounter after combat encounter (D&D 4e, in my experience, at least).

But rather than changing the way soak works, you could have a whole adventure where there's no fighting at all and where other skills matter. Combat doesn't have to be the "default" approach in this game, though I certainly see the appeal for players to want to build combat-capable characters. My duel wielding, melee wookie with a ton of brawn player isn't going to be very pleased when we get to the Geonosian party in Long arm of the hutt. in fact, I expect he'll be quite bored. But that's the way it goes.

Just my 2 credits.

Yeah. Let's go ahead and shut this down.

My sincere thanks, everyone, for participating.

What? I honestly don't see how you feel this thread should be shut down or that discussion is frowned upon. Unless posts have been edited by people- most of this discussion seems fine.

Yeah. Let's go ahead and shut this down.

My sincere thanks, everyone, for participating.

What? I honestly don't see how you feel this thread should be shut down or that discussion is frowned upon. Unless posts have been edited by people- most of this discussion seems fine.

I think the comment was made because the answer was found and that there was no more need for deliberation, at least not on Brother Orpheo's behalf.

Of course, I could be wrong. . .

Curious why the OP would want to implement this change before play ever started? What's the logic behind it? Fear of Brawn Soak-monkeys mostly?

This is the same guy who deletes his original thread posts on the DH House Rules board when commentary to his proposed house rule is critical or negative. So...no real surprise of this reaction from me.

This is the same guy who deletes his original thread posts on the DH House Rules board when commentary to his proposed house rule is critical or negative. So...no real surprise of this reaction from me.

In an effort to remain civil...

I would appreciate you getting your context in order. In regards to the House Rule threads on the Dark Heresy forum, you have painted a very narrow picture, of which you have only the barest of explanations from myself.

If you absolutely must have an explanation for this particular situation, know that I took the advice of those who had commented very early and, as LibrariaNPC has correctly surmised, saw no viable reason to continue participating in or promoting a thread topic that has already been bashed about an ended up with SW forumites getting rather nasty with one another.

It really is true...

You paint and paint and paint your whole life, and no one calls you an artist, but you suck one little cock and everyone calls you a little cocksucker for the rest of your life.

Well dude, that's how it's come across to me. I'm not apologizing for my perception.

It really is true...

You paint and paint and paint your whole life, and no one calls you an artist, but you suck one little cock and everyone calls you a little cocksucker for the rest of your life.

I don't think anyone else here said anything about the size.

my soak is so high this topic doesn't do any damage to me.....

Soak is becoming a concern for me, but you need to look at the big picture. My Marauder is a FSE... He also upgrades all attacks against him. And soak is what you are talking about? Hmm...

Then there's the damage output of your combat characters. My Gadgeteer has a minimum 15 damage, and she's tossing YYYYGB... It's about to go up by 5! And you're talking about soak?

Play more you shall, young Palawan. Learn you will.

Kick'm in the dump stats. Ropy and Dopy the killer characters are sneaking in to the military base? Toss some d*ck side on that roll please. Throw other challenges at them. Avoid a strictly combat focus.