If you read about the droid control ship, it does exactly what I mentioned, it broadcasts a ' master control signal' to the droid army and navy. It's not described what that signal is, but obviously if it has antennae, it could be a radio broadcast. It also could be some type of similar technology that functions in the same manner as our radio waves, but has in-decipherable code. Even though the droid army uses a system to control their droids, the organic species don't typically have wireless equipment outside of various ranged communication devices. In any case, the systems are either impossible to slice, or the technology to slice radio wave systems isn't in existence. The reason being, is that army would be totally wiped by one Republic Slicer if that were the case. I'm sure the Republic would've tried slicing the systems prior to using clones to fight in a massive war.

From the mentioned of targeting computers, I'm going to quote myself:

There are targeting computers and targeting assisted systems, but for small-scale space combat, we see analog piloting and firing of weapon systems. The Falcon had ball turrets like B20 bombers, X-Wings had target assisting computers, but everything was fired on the control stick, same with Airspeeders and Tie-Fighters. I'm sure droids have internal targeting systems, but all human vessels that we see outside of capital ships, fire directly from the control of the pilot or gunner.

The videos you just post show that this is the case. For one, both Han and Luke are mixing time between looking at the targeting systems, but at the same time they are using their eyesight to make the shots. You can clearly seeing them looking at both. The targeting system is also demonstrated in the Trench Run at the end of a New Hope. They are literally looking around for other fighters like top gun and firing their blasters like WW2 Dogfighters. It's cinematic and that's just the way things are in the StarWars universe...

The argument isn't that there are no targeting systems in StarWars, rather, that they aren't reliant on Targeting Computers for dogfights. Yes, they've got scanners and computers that assist with targeting, but the actual gunning is still very reliant on hand-eye coordination. To demonstrate, look at the guys trying to hit the exhaust port with targeting computers and how the pilots brag about hitting wamprats from x distance out using a Skyhopper.

I think what were doing is saying almost the same thing. There ARE wireless communications and there ARE targeting systems, but how they function is different in their entirety to similar technologies in our universe. There's no 'wifi' and targeting computers may help with gunnery, but it looks more like an upgrade to the check rather than a boost die..

Yeah, I am not fond of this ability. It was invented to give slicers something to do in space combat but it wouldn't work. This sort of thing would have been engineered out of any communications system. I would much rather the computer expert run targeting algorithms or scan for weak spots.

Just an observation, but that isn't what the problem is. Hacking rarely targets a communication system. It targets subcomponents which are typically not the most up to date.

As for engineering it out, that's not possible at all. Is it Windows that lets viruses on your computer? Is it stupid users? Or is it that software you just installed from some newb who doesn't know how to code and left a million zillion back doors open?

Please reread my post with the example of hacking modern navigation systems with a cell phone.

Last I checked, Windows has a a ton of security fixes. Open BSD is a tone of secuirty fixes as well. (That's military grade software by the way.) However everyone knows that military computers have all the latest patches right? :-)

FYI: I used to do tech support for Anti Submarine Warfare computers for the Navy.

IMO, your best option for describing Slicing is as described. It can weaken shields, add strain, and on crit, disable a weapon (or important equipment) for a round. This should be nothing devastating. Strain is easily recovered, shields come back, and guns start working again. Its only a concern because of when it happens.

Slicing as described IS NOT just computer access. Hackers take advantage of exploits in any system. You have to be pretty knowledgeable to do this, and the Exploits can be pretty subtle, and this case you have to use your imagination. A blinding light of a particular frequency might cause a reboot of the pilots helmet optics which contains the targeting system. Chaff confuses guidance systems... crap around the outside of a ship will absorb and deflect damage. (Sand Casters were integrated into Traveller for this reason.) Accessing the navigation array and telling it false data can cause all kinds of confusion.

So here's a real work example... Oil Rigs use Electro-magnetic (EM) Pulse Communications the problem is that most of those communication systems have zero security and can't even distinguish between which unit they are talking to.

http://surv-tech.net/services/mwd-tools-and-services/em-mwd.html

To shut off a drilling rig, an EM pulse train could be improvised and sent from pretty much any where within miles of the rig. (I know this, because it actually happened. Drilling gear started receiving pulses from unknown sources, and began reporting erroneous telemetry sending the drill off course.) So how much of that was computers and Slicing? I dunno, but in EOTE it falls under computer use.

Sorry, Luke and Han are looking at explosions not aiming, and if you actually watch it they are firing in the right direction before the TIEs are even in visual view of the windows.

You're wrong on the targeting also, Luke and Vader pull a trigger and only when the targeting computer displays a lock. They aren't aiming, they are simply making the decision to fire.

Physics doesn't take a complete holiday in my games. The human eye can't perceive something moving at thousands of mph at the distances in these clips and it certainly can't make the brain react in time. If people can react to targets moving that fast in your game then there is no reason they can't see a bullet in flight, because bullets move a fraction of the speed of these ships.

Screwing with targeting is relatively easy and is currently done in all modern warfare. When invading Iraq, the US made hay of the fact that the Russians were trying to confuse JDAM guided bombs. (Fortunately the smart bombs chose to ignore the Russians.)

In that case the folks firing get a data feed saying, Target coming at 5 oclock... they aim, only to see its coming at 8 and they are unprepared.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

Especially considering that range isn't a factor. Bagged dat dot!

Sorry, Luke and Han are looking at explosions not aiming, and if you actually watch it they are firing in the right direction before the TIEs are even in visual view of the windows.

You're wrong on the targeting also, Luke and Vader pull a trigger and only when the targeting computer displays a lock. They aren't aiming, they are simply making the decision to fire.

Physics doesn't take a complete holiday in my games. The human eye can't perceive something moving at thousands of mph at the distances in these clips and it certainly can't make the brain react in time. If people can react to targets moving that fast in your game then there is no reason they can't see a bullet in flight, because bullets move a fraction of the speed of these ships.

These are physics in our universe, it's a sci-fi fantasy world and all things aren't held equal. If we want to go by the physics of our world, the majority of things in StarWars wouldn't make sense, at all.

Targeting computers are mentioned here:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Targeting_computer

It's nothing more spectacular than anything than something in fighter planes from the 70's and 80's. If you notice it says the target is 'vulnerable' when the sights are lined up.. There is no 'locking', Proton Torpedos 'lock', the blasters still have to be lined up and aimed by the pilot, or gunner like a standard 'sight' - the difference here is the siting is digital. The concept is as simple as the gunners tracking sensors movement along the ship and having knowledge of the firing range. There are plenty of misses by Luke, Han and Vader, because they have to use their own hand-eye coordination, piloting skills and lining up sights to hit a target with Blasters and Lasers. This is why they aren't looking down, at the computer - their eyes shift to space when a TIE gets in range, and back to the computer when they make a kill shot.

Here's an excerpt from the IN-344-B "Sightline" Holographic Imaging System used by the X-Wings in A New Hope:

The device simplified what could be seen by the pilot , making computer-assisted targeting a much easier task. However, it also possessed a chance of causing a near-miss, as evidenced by Garven Dreis , the " Red Leader " of Red Squadron during the Battle of Yavin , firing off two proton torpedoes at the thermal exhaust port during the Trench Run upon getting a lock, but instead hit some yards away from the exhaust port

It says specific 'making computer-assisted targeting a much easier task' implying that the systems used on Targeting Computers aided in making firing decisions, but reliance on skills and sighting down targets without the systems were the primary means of operating lasers. It also indicates that systems like this were used more often with weapons that could 'lock-on' such as proton torpedos.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IN-344-B_%22Sightline%22_holographic_imaging_system

Also an excerpt from the ANq 3.6 Tracking Computer:

The Fabritech ANq 3.6 tracking computer was a targeting computer commonly installed in the Rebel Alliance T-65 X-wing starfighter and the B-wing starfighter . Information was relayed to it via a multiplexer array. It could track up to 1,000 moving sublight objects, acquire 20 possible targets, and could be programmed for extra sensitivity to 120 specific sensor signatures. As such, its tactical imagery was commmonly used in X-wings to target, aim, and launch the X-wing's payload of MG7-A proton torpedoes .

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ANq_3.6_tracking_computer

Here's St2x Targetting System used by Xizor's ships, which is probably the closest to a sophisticated targetting system for laser weapons, but it's not explicitly mentioned. I'm going to assume they are effected because the article mentions 'all' weapons:

The St2x targeting computer was a highly advanced device used on Prince Xizor 's Virago . Rather than developing new and potentially illegal weaponry for use on the Virago , the MandalMotors design team focused their energies on making existing weapon systems more effective. Their final design combined the very advanced St2x with an experimental laser sighting system. Once installed, the package was capable of providing targeting information to the pilot even while undergoing complex maneuvers. The system was so advanced that virtually any weapon systems installed on the Virago would perform at levels far higher than their manufacturer's specifications.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/St2x_targeting_computer

This is a one-off case of super advanced targeting computers on one ship, in the EU.

In any case, I'm bringing this up because the reliance on targeting computers for gunners to sight out laser shots isn't something present in StarWars and also trying to place our physics into StatWars isn't exactly a fair way to explain why or what things do in StarWars. That's like trying to explain why Dragons or Magic exist in a non-sci-fi Fantasy game. George Lucas could simply say, humans in the StarWars Universe have been using this technology for so long, they've adapted to sighting things that move at 1000's of miles and hour, and we'd go with it.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

MosesofWar: I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.

Most targeting systems today are assisted or fully automatic. Meaning... Star Wars isn't off. (Just distances and speeds ... lets leave those in fantasy and acceptable, OK.)

What all this means is that feeding false targeting information to a targeting assitant, should muck things up plenty. The Gunner is looking the wrong way.

Hencock: The current line of thought on Warp Drives is the Alcubierre Drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

MosesofWar: I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.

I was responding to this statement:

In all these examples it is clear no one is using their eyeballs other than to look at targeting scopes.

Targeting systems in StarWars seems less commonly used that what we've got around today, most likely more for a 'cinematic' reason, rather than any type of mechanical or physical reason. I was putting those references up to show, most targeting systems are used for 'lock-on' weaponry, not necessarily laser fire. Even in the games like X-Wing or Rogue Squadron we see a lack of Laser related targeting computers or assistance; we get 'reticules', but not any type of auto-aiming system like in Halo. It's strange, but it's Space Fantasy...

That's probably why the description for 'Slice Enemy's Systems' has a consequence to turn off weapons, but not add setback dice/upgrade the difficulty of Gunnery Attacks...

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success. The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion. 1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews. Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success. The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion. 1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews. Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

You're 100% correct here, even with escorts, WW2 bombers got wtf pwned. The concept of someone manually sighting even a slow moving object from another slow moving object, without knowledge of where the gun velocity would take the bullets is a difficult task. StarWars is fantasy, the same type of fantasy where you see in movies that the hero can hit all his shot out of a gun, on target, but none of his adversaries can hit him. There's just stuff in fantasy that can't well be explained.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

I'd never tell anyone else how to run their game, and if having the physical ability to visually target and shoot something moving 10x faster than a bullet is acceptable to some then so be it.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success. The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion. 1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews. Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

None of what you say is true. You are talking about what was portrayed in movies, not what actually happened.

I thought I'd already posted this video;

Initally the Germans had the electronic warfare advantage in the form of Radar. This was used to direct fighters to the bombers and shoot the bombers. Initially...

The purpose of allied electronic warfare was to send enemy fighter planes to the wrong location. 29 minutes in is a funny story about detecting german fighters with radar...

30 minutes in discusses how radically different bombing runs had become by the end of the war. (I never saw an ELINT plane in WWII movies, did you? Geeks with consoles not cool enough? Yet they won the war, not the bombers.)

Furthermore it was not possible for bombers to bomb in Europe... they developed air to ground radar to cut through all that cloud cover.... and the Germans developed air to ground radar detectors... (19 - 20 minutes in) Gee, I only saw optical sights in the movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxos_radar_detector

Pretty interesting history lesson UHF.

Pretty interesting history lesson UHF.

Thanks... And to be fair to all comments disagreeing about WWII...

Lucas would have grown up watching the movie version of bomber runs.

Which is my only real point in this targeting discussion and that somehow people are aiming with their eyes at targets moving at fractions of light speed is absurd. There is definitely something for a slicer to do to another ship's targeting.

This is what we call "An acceptable break from reality".

NASA's space shuttle can go to 28,000km/h. A super cool space TIE fighter? 12,000km/h. Even then, by the speeds represented in ANH during the Millenium Falcon/Tie Fighter attack, they seem to visually be going slower than that. You're right, it should be super fast and you should be required to use computers, but then it wouldn't look cool.

I'm pretty sure hyperspeed or warp doesn't exist either, but I'm not omniscient. I can appreciate them in a science fiction context.

BUT that doesn't mean you can throw everything out the window, especially specifically established rules in a universe. Some things should have a basis in reality, like Slicing the Enemy Systems. It doesn't work on its own without proper third party explanation.

You still need targeting assistance at slow speeds for any hope of success. The WW2 bomber thing gets cited in Star Wars stylistic fashion. 1/8 of US war dead in WW2 were bomber crews. Using only eyeballs in conjunction with crew served weapons to target fighters moving at best 450 mph worked like poopie and bombers were shot to pieces.

None of what you say is true. You are talking about what was portrayed in movies, not what actually happened.

I thought I'd already posted this video;

Initally the Germans had the electronic warfare advantage in the form of Radar. This was used to direct fighters to the bombers and shoot the bombers. Initially...

The purpose of allied electronic warfare was to send enemy fighter planes to the wrong location. 29 minutes in is a funny story about detecting german fighters with radar...

30 minutes in discusses how radically different bombing runs had become by the end of the war. (I never saw an ELINT plane in WWII movies, did you? Geeks with consoles not cool enough? Yet they won the war, not the bombers.)

Furthermore it was not possible for bombers to bomb in Europe... they developed air to ground radar to cut through all that cloud cover.... and the Germans developed air to ground radar detectors... (19 - 20 minutes in) Gee, I only saw optical sights in the movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxos_radar_detector

55,000 bomber crew killed in action was not from movies. Im also aware of the various EW options that existed. The context of this conversation for clarification was not bombing by bombers but rather the various gun crews defending the aircraft. They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

It does in the movies... And in made up Universes with things like 'the Force', Sarlaccs, guys that can dual-wield pistols and shoot accurately while flying around on jet packs, laser swords, moon-sized space stations that can destroy planets with a single blast and not be effected by a sudden change in gravity, wookiees, massive walking death machines, spaceships that can VTOL off the ground and fly through an atmosphere, tractor beams, bacta, transformers, hyperspace, a multitude of space faring alien species...

You're right, it'd be tough for people to sight out objects moving 1000's of mph... But this is StarWars, it's a Fantasy Universe, not real life. Sometimes, things simply don't need real-world, mechanical explanations (...midiclorians...) for how they work.

I also get the fantasy element of Star Wars but the mechanical element was kind of the point to whole thread and getting slicers more involved in ship combat and what they could do. Honestly this reply is mostly courtesy as I've added you to the ignore list with ErikB and HappyDaze as it seems more often than not you're mostly contrary for the sake of it.

55,000 bomber crew killed in action was not from movies. Im also aware of the various EW options that existed. The context of this conversation for clarification was not bombing by bombers but rather the various gun crews defending the aircraft. They very much used open sight machine guns and they were shot to pieces. It didn't work on prop fighters for beans it certainly would not work on star fighters moving thousands of mph.

My point is that they didn't aim with their eyes. They couldn't.

They needed to know where to look. That would be the ELINT radar planes radioing in the attack to all the planes... "Look to the right at 6 Oclock." In fact there was quite a lot of radio chatter. (I wonder if anyone gave them false messages.)

Interesting... No way to fire back... If you guide a fighter in from below, the allies were defenseless and couldn't see it. If it also has upward firing guns, well bad news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik

I'm also saying that the Germans couldn't attack with their eyes. In fact they didn't. If they fell for the chaff false voice orders, fake navigation signals, they were 200 miles back, at the wrong altitude with nothing to shoot at.

No 100 Group, RAF did this. Wow... talk about strain, the German night fighter crews were so afraid of landing, they ditched their planes. (Hmm... friend of the family was a Mosquito Pilot downed in WWII.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF

Their bombers were similarly affected by their use of guidance communications;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

Here's the allies confusing the Germans with fake voice communications;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Corona

Ok. Fighters and bomber guns zeroed their weapons. I agree radar guidance and radio directional detection was used. However, when bombers fired waist guns an turrets or fighters used their guns, they were aiming with their eyes.

My point is that they didn't aim with their eyes. They couldn't.

They needed to know where to look. That would be the ELINT radar planes radioing in the attack to all the planes... "Look to the right at 6 Oclock." In fact there was quite a lot of radio chatter. (I wonder if anyone gave them false messages.)

Interesting... No way to fire back... If you guide a fighter in from below, the allies were defenseless and couldn't see it. If it also has upward firing guns, well bad news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik

I'm also saying that the Germans couldn't attack with their eyes. In fact they didn't. If they fell for the chaff false voice orders, fake navigation signals, they were 200 miles back, at the wrong altitude with nothing to shoot at.

No 100 Group, RAF did this. Wow... talk about strain, the German night fighter crews were so afraid of landing, they ditched their planes. (Hmm... friend of the family was a Mosquito Pilot downed in WWII.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF

Their bombers were similarly affected by their use of guidance communications;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

Here's the allies confusing the Germans with fake voice communications;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Corona

This actually seems very much like StarWars with various fighters and command centers communicating frantically with each other over positioning in a battle. I think there's a couple of times when some of the fighters shout that they 'can't see um' indicating that their opponents had navigated into an areas where sensors couldn't pick them up, or they literally couldn't see... Or both...

Its pretty obvious where I stand on all this.

I don't thinking Slicing as described is out of keeping with the game. Its not very powerful. Most definitely don't ever let someone do anything they want with a critial Slice. The alternate description of launching chaff, or confusing the enemy with a burst of RF or light is more than likely what is going on, and the net result is the effects as described (maybe that gun can't fire 'cause its aimed the wrong way). Slicer gear is also described this way... its bits of stuff modifed to break into things. (Our Slicer is a Pit Droid, but he's got one of those rotating communicationg links like R2.)

If you have an expert Slicer on the crew its no biggy. If he gets any good, toss more bad stuff at'm. Delaying a concussion missile by one round has saved their bacon's on more than one occasion. And the player has an awesome time. That's the important thing.