Looking at the preview of the Dungeon Characters, I would have to say that on initial impression

that the Philosopher would have to be put on the list of banned characters.

"Whenever you land on faceup Adventure Cards, you may discard one card of your choice that you do not wish to

encounter and draw another card to replace it, which you must encounter."

am pretty sure it was not the original Philosopher abilities, not sure if was maybe borrowed from another character.

any other characters that people ban from being used ?

BanthaFodder said:

Original Philosopher (2nd ed) had pretty much the exact same abilities as the R4th Sage. We hated the old Philosopher and the new Sage is currently the only character with a winning record.

Not sure how big of an impact that new Philosopher's ability will have. I for one am already thinking of ways to use it to screw other characters. If an Evil char draw Fairy or a Good draws Phantom, run over there and discard them before they can be taken advantage of. Same for Idol in games with Knight/Monk/Priest. Easy kills in a game with Dark Cultist. Academy when others have plenty of Gold and you don't. That sorta thing. Since you must encounter the replacement, going to say Witch and discarding her might lead to Raiders. Will it combo with Orb of Knowledge? If so, then we might be cooking.

I've always tought the Monk is the least fair character. I don't want to ban him, but I my group likes to draw three characters (and chose one). I argue against this - I don't mind playing aginast the Monk, as long as it's been topdecked fairly.

Why should i banned that character. I give everyone a chance to play by drawing 3 character cards.

And i like the ability from the Philosopher.

This will clean up the board and the Philosopher can take advantage of this by drawing another card.

Can't wait to try it out

Velhart said:

The Philosopher seems quite a good Character at first glance, but not a broken one. Despite being the Philosopher" he has a very concrete power to change the substance of things, but the ability is interesting indeed. Also the Spell discard ability is very useful; you have to be really unlucky to get stuck with a bad Spell you can't use.

crimhead said:

What's wrong with the Monk?

The_Warlock said:

Yeah, but there are more good characters. The Swashbuckler has also good abilities. Getting a extra turn and take a extra card on the fields etc

I look forward to the other 3 characters. The Gladiator, Gypsy and Amazone are looking also good from second edition.

Dam said:

The monk seems good to me..

Getting a +3 strength in battle from craft...

I want to try it out someday. Looks fun to me

My stats and feelings put the Monk among the medi-level characters. +3 is nice, only Warrior can really equal that (other's could with Sword of Light + Enchant Weapon) and the +1 Pray has it's benefits. No Armour is sometimes a hindrance. Monk does ok, nothing too outstanding. People who have FFG board or are using fully updated BI board (i.e. Fate Replenish at Graveyard), Monk + Druid Staff with the 5 Fate he packs can be nasty.

Velhart said:

Yesterday I played a BI 4th edition game with the Monk and did horrible. I was overwhelmed by apparently weaker Characters (Dwarf, Elf and Ghoul, the winner). Lowest moment was losing a combat to an equally strong Dwarf that took my only Object, the Ring, previously taken from the Elf.

I think crimhead is speaking of 2nd edition Monk, who could add his current Craft to Strength in combat. That was excessive but now it's over. Perhaps the Monk is a little too weak now, especially if played without Fate. The Armour + Weapons restriction is too much of a penalty compared to the poor Stats and +3 bonus in battle. Monk is 2/3, 5/3 in battle and gets +1 when praying. At least 4th edition Monk could use the Holy Lance; the FFG Monk can only use weapons for Psychic combat.

Interesting that Monk comes up. He was one of the characters we used to ban, along with the Ninja

Back in those days it was not clear about which Craft value to add (or subtract in case of Ninja) and we

did not consider that it was just starting value. That meant the Monk got expontentially powerful.

We also banned the War Horse for the same reason. Fights used to break out...

Now the rules are clearer that it is just starting Craft then that is not too bad.

Maybe I am being harsh on the Philosopher and it introduces a different tactic to the game. Anyway, it starts a good debate

which is what forums should be about..

I am not quite sure what power the Philosopher is using to discard the encumbent card. Reasoning it out of existance.. ? Seems

a bit .... random really.

The_Warlock said:

Recent game featured the Priest, which again led my down a dark path of thought. Priest (and perhaps the Monk as well) should really be allowed to use Magic Object Weapons (holy items with which to smite Evil/Good). That's one thing I don't like about the clumping of all things under the banner of "Weapon". Priest with Holy Lance makes total thematic sense and would aid the worst character (though is my games Sorceress has worse stats, but still...).

BanthaFodder said:

If it's a Creature/Stranger, maybe the Philosopher can persuade it to leave the space and start a new life out of the Talisman land.

I have some problems with Places... how can the Philosopher make places disappear is beyond my immagination. Does he convince the builders/keepers of the Place to dismantle and rebuild it somewhere else? Still I can't see a Marsh being erased from existence by enlightened herons and crocodiles...

Nah, he philosophies that the place only exists if someone believes in it, he doesn't so, poof !

Well, philosopher ability seem similar to prophetess (correct english name?), it is not the same but similar power so i think it is a very good skill but no need to ban for it.

I agree what was said about monk, because he add only basic value he is a good pg but no overpowered but this is not enough to balance his flaw to no using weapons (now all fighting items are weapons seem) but +3 reduce this feeling but what about poor monk? he dont have +3 AND dont use weapons AND must figth on strength (cant figth on craft). Maybe he will get some nice stuff in expansions

Andraax said:

Since I've been playing revised 4th edition with the expansion from the very first game, I've never experienced a game with the Monk and no access to Weapons. The base set hasn't a single weapon that the Monk can use, so he's really disadvantaged in comparison to most Characters. As far as I recall, the Monk played 3 games with BI 4th edition and was always the bottom Character. On the contrary, I remember a 2-player game with 2nd edition rules where the Monk crushed the Assassin with no effort (I was the Assassin, obviously).

The Reaper Expansion adds many Weapons and Objects that help Psychic Combat and give additional Craft. Unfortunately, Monk (and Priest) options are still fewer, basically only Bane Sword (+2 in Psychic Combat), Psychic Crystal (+1 in Psychic Combat) and Sword of Light (they can partially use it and add +1 in Psychic Combat, but the interesting +2 in Battle is wasted). Monk needs to change Alignment in order to take advantage of useful add-ons like Homunculus and Soul Biter.

But Armour limitation is the worst penalty in the game and only the Monk is "blessed" with it. Hopefully the Dungeon Expansion will introduce some Armour Objects that can be used in Psychic Combat.

Velhart said:

The Gladiator has already been summed up nicely in the latest designer entry on the Dungeon, here: new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

"The Gladiator is a powerful addition to the world of Talisman. Featuring a high life total, and solid values in Strength and Craft, this devotee of evil is more than capable of taking care of himself. Add in his ability to boost Armour rolls, and beginning the game with the Helmet, the Gladiator can tackle large encounters even early in the game. The biggest ability allows him to gain Strength from all of his followers. Every follower is able to add one to his Strength, giving him double benefits."

So I guess 5 Lives, S 3-4, C 3 and the abilities as stated. Quite similar to 2nd edition, really.

Gorthuar said:

Wonder if they'll bump him to Craft 3, he was C2 in the 2nd ed. What about Fate, 2, 3, 1?

I wouldn't call C 2 a "solid value" so my guess is it will get bumped up to 3. Still, that's only my guess. Fate is a bit trickier. 1 or 2, I think, since he'll almost certainly have an extra Life, and his abilities are quite cool. If his S is 4, then I guess he will have just 1 Fate, but if it's 3, he may have 2...

Gorthuar said:

Yeah oke... i have read the article before but i wanted to see the character card.

5 lives and S3-4 + C3 would be nice

I think that most of the ability's will return for the Gypsy and Amazone from 2th edition.

Gorthuar said:

Well, Warrior comes packing 4/2 and he's pretty solid. Gladiator, with his boost to Armour saves, only loses a Life in battle on a 1 or 2 when he has the Armour. Add to that the extra Strength from Followers and I don't really see him needing C3. It might put him over so to speak.

Warrior used to be 4/3 and FFG dropped him down to 4/2.

The_Warlock said:

haha yeah it's really weird.

Looks like god power

Maybe he can summon a collosus to smash the place to bits...

Philosopher is a powerful caster

The_Warlock said:

Yeah, I was playing the Monk wrong as per second edition. I won't let that happen again.

Why would one play without fate? Fate is a fantastic inovation.

crimhead said:

3 Toadings in 37 games, that's why . Pre-Fate rate used to be 1/game. Additionally, it totally nerfs Dice with Death.

crimhead said:

I play with Fate, but last Monday I played with Black Industries Talisman and there was no Fate to spend there. Thus I felt that the Monk was pretty weak, except during the first turns. I had a lot of Gold but no Objects to buy. I bought an Axe two times because the Dwarf took the first from me before I was able to build a Raft.

Luck is luck; if you are unlucky Fate doesn't change anything, it only makes the game more frustrating IMO. I have beaten all records in bad die rolling and bad card drawing, I managed to be the first Toad of revised 4th edition, the first (and only) Character killed by the Reaper and I use to lose combats with 1-2 points of advantage. Fate prevents lucky players from being toaded, stopped, upsetted in their straight way to victory. I'm not whining for nothing, all people who have played with me recognized that I have a sort of curse when playing games.

Dam plays Revised 4th edition with upgrade pack + Reaper, using BI 4th edition board. If you do this, you have no access to Fate replenishment at Graveyard. Fate has been distributed considering the chance to replenish it (and Characters' Special Abilities) and Evil Characters are a bit disadvantaged in this case, but I also preferred when nobody had Fate to spend. In Monday's game, an Elf with 12 or 11 Craft received a Random Spell, lost all Craft and the game he was about to win. "3" was the only number he didn't want to roll; being Toaded at the Crown or lose all Strength would have been better results.

This is nice and it doesn't happen anymore with Fate.