One thing that is being overlooked in this 3 v 4 argument is PS. Three rebels of the type I posted will almost certainly kill one of your four ships before you shoot back. That makes it 3 vs 3 and then I have the higher PS next round again.

This is not theory. I've flown that build over two dozen times against all types of list, Imp and Rebel and lost only once to Han and 2x Blue B and that was with the HWK going down to the last B with 2 Hull left.

Not discounting your experience, but I don't see many three fighter lists recommended and I think they've mostly disappeared from the top tables in competitive play.

That's exactly what I'm starting to "hate" (hate being a bit harsh but i,ts the only word I have in mind after 2 horrific games) about X-Wing: If you don't kneel to the cookie cutting you don't really stand a chance against in leagues and up.

I'm in a "casual" league where you mostly see the same "cliché" squads you all talk about here.

I must say though that I don't condemn or spit on those lists and they're all great and work awesomely well but you can't get wins and have fun when you keep losing, bad rolls apart, against those list with your "for fun" squad.

Leagues and competitive play as it's place expecially with a game like X-Wing but maybe it's just not for me.

As you get better at group tactics, you can start to handle larger groups.
As your local meta gets better at fighting groups, you can start to handle smaller groups.

It's all the dance of the Metagame, and I like that this game is flexible enough to handle it.

Yeah but when you have some players that have 200+ games behind them (including Vassal) mixed with some, like me that have less then 30, it make you realise that your "fun list" is not helping you at all lol.

But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable

This is it

Wedge Antilles (33)

R2 Astromech, Push the Limit

Ibtisam (32)

Advanced Sensors, Veteran Instincts

Jan Ors (34)

Determination, Blaster Turret, Nien Nunb, Moldy Crow

I don't see a reason to have Blaster Turret unless you are running Kyle Katarn with Recon and Moldy Crow. Could I get your thoughts about why you choose that specifically?

Yeah but when you have some players that have 200+ games behind them (including Vassal) mixed with some, like me that have less then 30, it make you realise that your "fun list" is not helping you at all lol.

But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable

Worlds last year was my first tournament, and I remember feeling very similar. I'd been on the forums a bit, but I'd never seen players line their ships up in a grid for perfect (and entirely skillless and predictable) turns, or even heard the term "jousting" applied to the game. Every opponent I faced fielded R2-D2 with a Shield Upgrade on either Luke or Wedge. It was an eye-opener, to say the least.

Take my advice; play with your friends, run some scenarios, field quirky lists, repaint your ships, whatever is fun. And if/when you do go to tournaments, challenge the meta. Take your custom-painted a-little-bit-of-everything list and knife-fight in the asteroids. You may not win, but you'll have played your game on your terms, and that's what's really important.

This is it

Wedge Antilles (33)

R2 Astromech, Push the Limit

Ibtisam (32)

Advanced Sensors, Veteran Instincts

Jan Ors (34)

Determination, Blaster Turret, Nien Nunb, Moldy Crow

I don't see a reason to have Blaster Turret unless you are running Kyle Katarn with Recon and Moldy Crow. Could I get your thoughts about why you choose that specifically?

To make Jan a useful gun, perhaps, so the squad doesn't have just two attackers, heh. HWKs are almost useless without a Blaster Turret, even when making use of a named pilot's ability.

I think that looks like a neat squad, although this would be my version of it:

Wedge (30)

R2 Astromech

Ibtisam (35)

Push the Limit

Engine Upgrade

Jan Ors (34)

Adrenaline Rush

Blaster Turret

Nien Numb

Moldy Crow

My Ibtisam build is totally different from Englishpete's. PTL and Engine Upgrade are the only way to run Ibtisam — they help put stress on her, which she wants for her ability. That required sacrificing the Marksmanship on Wedge, but that should be OK when Jan is helping him. And I like Jan with Adrenaline Rush rather than Determination because it helps a little with moving while she's stressed, which she should be often.

That's exactly what I'm starting to "hate" (hate being a bit harsh but i,ts the only word I have in mind after 2 horrific games) about X-Wing: If you don't kneel to the cookie cutting you don't really stand a chance against in leagues and up.

I'm in a "casual" league where you mostly see the same "cliché" squads you all talk about here.

I must say though that I don't condemn or spit on those lists and they're all great and work awesomely well but you can't get wins and have fun when you keep losing, bad rolls apart, against those list with your "for fun" squad.

Leagues and competitive play as it's place expecially with a game like X-Wing but maybe it's just not for me.

The game, with two factions and a handful of ships will favor certain combinations. Frankly it's a testament to the game that that there are as many that work. And, with wave four, epic play, etc...the options will continue to expand..

But it's all for the game and I love this game but I realise that I prefer the casual play where everything is playable and viable

Everything is playable, but even in casual play there is going to be a disparity in the game due to list building, which I think is what you mean by viable. In fact when two players choose things based completely on what seems fun to them without worrying about how competitive the list is. I think that you are actually more likely to have that disparity than two players who at least keep competitive balance in mind.

I try to strike a balance. I love the Awing but realize I can't fly a full list of them if I want to keep things competitive. So then I try to figure out how many I can include to still keep games interesting, since I also don't care about completely min/maxing my list for a competitive edges.

Anyway, I get what you mean, but I thought I'd offer that perspective.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with squads that have a single squad leader and 2 or 3 generic pilots added to it provided the leader has something good running for the rest of the team. Here's something I've been thinking up for a little bit.

Dutch Vander: (23) Ion Turret (5) R5-K6 (2) for 30

Rebel Operative: (16) Blaster Turret (4) Recon Specialist (3) for 23 times 2 for 46

This leaves 24 points for pretty much whatever low skilled pilot you can fit in here. Gold Squadron with an Ion Turret and R2 unit works fine at the moment or a B-Wing of some sort, but I'm toying with the idea of two Z-95's or Tarn Mison (A pilot skill 3 X-Wing) if his ability happens to be good.

@AlexW: Sorry about that, I was coming back from another abysmal game where I again couldn't land hits and downed 0 enemy ships. 4 Hits total this game, after 11 turns and attacking mostly with 3 dice. That was a real downer. I'm sorry if my comment made you feel that way, it was not on prupose nor was it intentionnal.

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement. (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol) If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade

Jan+Ion Turret

Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship

Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten. Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary.

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement. (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol) If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade

Jan+Ion Turret

Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship

Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten. Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.

Sorry but I am in the camp of SolennelBern. After getting wiped at Worlds I realized this game is all abput hull. Especially when a ist with 5 TIE bombers and Howlrunner is a hair breath away from getting into the top 16. The player who can fly 6 plus ships wins. Period.

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary.

As a Rebel player, you have the advantage when it comes to movement. (I can hear people screaming about the superiority of the Tie dial now. lol) If you don't understand this truth, I suggest you learn the "Rule of 11".

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

Biggs+R2D2+Shield Upgrade

Jan+Ion Turret

Ten+Adv. Sensor+Marksmanship

Keep Biggs at 2-3 range to draw fire away from Jan and Ten. Jan will set up easy shots and provide re-rolls while Biggs and Ten should be killing something almost every round.

Just adding another ship just to add it unfortunately is necessary. I am sorry but a build like this will lose the war of attrition. Biggs has the most defensive dice. A 4 ship build with 2 Bs and 2 Xs will eventually win. A 5 ship build will eat it for breakfast.

Sorry but I am in the camp of SolennelBern. After getting wiped at Worlds I realized this game is all abput hull. Especially when a ist with 5 TIE bombers and Howlrunner.....and thats it. The player who can fly 6 plus ships wins. Period.

This has not been my experience. And I've enjoyed winning with this build. Biggs, when flown correctly, is a Tie swarm pain in the butt. R2-D2 keeps him around and I've played several games were I haven't lost a single ship. This is a very balanced and well made game. ANY 100 point squad has a chance of beating another 100 point squad. The ships and their abilities do not decide the outcome of a game. The player's skill does. That being said, It is much harder to run a 3 ship squad than a 4. There is little to no room for error with the build I suggested. For players building squads to take to a tourney: Know your strengths and weaknesses and build around them. Also, repeat this montra: IT'S A GAME, SO HAVE FUN WHILE PLAYING IT!

But it's when you finish a game and count 4 total damage done in 100+ die rolled that you realise that you have to be good to Lady Luck or she'll destroy you

I played in a tourney last weekend, went 2-1 and flew a three rebel squad. One of my wins was against a 7 Tie Swarm, losing only 1 ship to his 7.

I was very happy with the performance and enjoyed flying it a lot. With three ships, you end up taking the fight into the asteroids a lot which is a ton of fun.

List:

Luke Skywalker - Proton Torp

Horton Salm - Proton Torp, Ion Cannon Turret, R5 astromech

Tycho Celchu - Concussion Missiles, Push the Limits

The secondary weapons are key on this list, I always took out one enemy ship at the Range 3 initial volley before it even got a shot off. Luke's Proton is kinda mey, but Horton and Tycho have good abilities that enable them to hit hard with the secondaries.

I took the blaster turret for firepower on the HWK, with Moldy Crow you will have enough focus to do the job.

On the subject of more hull/shields is better, I am open minded. I ran my list in a tourney environment of 16+ people and came in second (the Han and 2 Blue list beat me in the final game) and I was up against very experienced players. I beat the several 4 ship Rebel lists as well as mobile Fett with 4 Tie mini swarm and HSF with 2 Gold Ion Y's.

It really is all about having fun for me, even at a tourney. My other lists I fly and do well with are Turr, Vader, Fel (won tourney with that) and 4 x Int with Swarm tactics. Neither of those are rocking hull and shields :-)

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

I don't disagree here (IE that the plan is more important than the number of ships) , but the question wasn't "Can a three ship list work?" It's "Which overall approach is better?"

I think it's pretty clear cut that there are more four ship builds that work. There are reasons for that that have to do with the fact that, in general, four ships have advantages over three in terms of point-for-point it is more cost effective. Upgrades often provide synergies and nice combinations, but usually aren't as cost effective and have a smaller margin of error and lower tolerance for poor luck.

I've certainly seen these lists win, but especially in the hands of newer or inexperienced players I've seen them get obliterated. So, in terms of a general list building process, I don't think there's any way to really say that three ships is better than four. I won't go so far as to say the rebels are currently better served with five over four, though;)

I think if you have 2 players with equal skill, generally 4 ships beats 3. It is a simple case of attrition. Sure sometimes the 3 ship build comes on top.....but that is only if you roll really, really well on a key round. If your rolls are average, three ships lose whether they fire first or not.

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

I don't disagree here (IE that the plan is more important than the number of ships) , but the question wasn't "Can a three ship list work?" It's "Which overall approach is better?"

I've certainly seen these lists win, but especially in the hands of newer or inexperienced players I've seen them get obliterated. So, in terms of a general list building process, I don't think there's any way to really say that three ships is better than four. I won't go so far as to say the rebels are currently better served with five over four, though;)

Frequently, I see inexperienced players take the advice that more is better and the low PS of their swarm further magnifies their inexperience. I would agree with you that running three ships is not for the weak of heart though. For new Rebel players, I tend to suggest a 4 ship squad with a nice assortment of PS so they can experience what it's like to move during different times of the activation phase.

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

I don't disagree here (IE that the plan is more important than the number of ships) , but the question wasn't "Can a three ship list work?" It's "Which overall approach is better?"

I've certainly seen these lists win, but especially in the hands of newer or inexperienced players I've seen them get obliterated. So, in terms of a general list building process, I don't think there's any way to really say that three ships is better than four. I won't go so far as to say the rebels are currently better served with five over four, though;)

Frequently, I see inexperienced players take the advice that more is better and the low PS of their swarm further magnifies their inexperience. I would agree with you that running three ships is not for the weak of heart though. For new Rebel players, I tend to suggest a 4 ship squad with a nice assortment of PS so they can experience what it's like to move during different times of the activation phase.

Did anyone suggest that when taking four players should also attempt to minimize PS? I just think the answer to this question is far simpler than you're making it .

I took:

2x Blue sq w/autoblasters

Rookie

Green sq w/VI and assault missiles

Went 5-0, in a pool of 15 players.

The autoblasters chewed through some TIES!

That being said, SP is important to rebel fleets. Four is not better than three if the 4th is just an added ship for a 4th's sake. Here is my 3 ship fleet that has yet to loose in both casual and organized play.

I don't disagree here (IE that the plan is more important than the number of ships) , but the question wasn't "Can a three ship list work?" It's "Which overall approach is better?"

I've certainly seen these lists win, but especially in the hands of newer or inexperienced players I've seen them get obliterated. So, in terms of a general list building process, I don't think there's any way to really say that three ships is better than four. I won't go so far as to say the rebels are currently better served with five over four, though;)

Frequently, I see inexperienced players take the advice that more is better and the low PS of their swarm further magnifies their inexperience. I would agree with you that running three ships is not for the weak of heart though. For new Rebel players, I tend to suggest a 4 ship squad with a nice assortment of PS so they can experience what it's like to move during different times of the activation phase.

Did anyone suggest that when taking four players should also attempt to minimize PS? I just think the answer to this question is far simpler than you're making it .

Are you teaching them the game are making it easier for them? I agree, keeping it to no more than 1 or 2 PS levels in a squad is easier. But I argue they will learn more by playing a squad that has at least one ship go early, in the middle, and late in the round.

To tie back to the OP, if you understand the difference in how to play ships according to their PS; then you can successfully build 3 AND 4 ship squads.

I regularly run a 3 ship rebel build. Wedge, Biggs and Chewie. It only leaves 4 points for upgrades but draw their fire is mandatory for Chewie. I placed 3rd at FFG's May the 4th event with it so it is possible to do well with only three ships. You need to fly very well and concentrate fire with your higher pilot skill to eliminate your opponents superior numbers fast. The best advice is to fly what you are familiar and comfortable with. If your list fits your play style then you will do well with it and don't worry about a bad game or two we all have them. Doing well in a tournament is 75% skill and 25% luck.

Jetsetter my man, I assume you won the Store Championship Saturday?