I have checked the rules and can't seem to find an answer either way on this so I thought I would ask the community. Apologies if it has already been asked before.

When placing ships the rules state small base ships are placed fully within range 1 of the players edge. There is also a section further in that states, when measuring firing arc or range the guide nubs are not taken into account. My question is, when placing ships, can the nubs extend beyond the play edge and/or beyond range 1?

This could matter when setting up a box formation as the ships can use the same bank template and not overlap only if setup with the base (and not nubs) are range one apart on the furthest edges.

Thanks!

I'd say that since they don't count for overlapping, they wouldn't count for set up either.

My understanding is that they aren't part of the base, but rather just there to help make sure you put the template in the center of the base.

I'd say that since they don't count for overlapping, they wouldn't count for set up either.

My understanding is that they aren't part of the base, but rather just there to help make sure you put the template in the center of the base.

Since they DO count for overlapping, they should also count for setup. They only don't count for measuring arc/range.

Agree with Khyros. Exceptions should be considered as explicit and not general. In other words, you can't extend the exception on the nubs for arc/range to also include setup measurement.

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Since they DO count for overlapping, they should also count for setup. They only don't count for measuring arc/range.

I could of sworn I read that they didn't count for overlapping, but perhaps I mixing two things together.

So if they do count for overlapping then yes they'd count for setup too.

Well on page 10 of the rulebook it says:"Note: When determining firing arc and measuring range, ignore all guides (the two small bumps on the front and rear of each base)"

In all fairness I cannot find any rules regarding the guides (nubs if you like) being part of the base when it comes to overlapping. Can someone quote the rules / FAQ for me?

Based on this so far I would say the guides (nubs) are not part of the base and therefore they do not count for setting up.

Well on page 10 of the rulebook it says:"Note: When determining firing arc and measuring range, ignore all guides (the two small bumps on the front and rear of each base)"

In all fairness I cannot find any rules regarding the guides (nubs if you like) being part of the base when it comes to overlapping. Can someone quote the rules / FAQ for me?

Based on this so far I would say the guides (nubs) are not part of the base and therefore they do not count for setting up.

If the guides are not part of the base, why would there be a need to exclude them for range measurement?

The exclusion could just be reinforcement of a specific case, so that's not definitive... So we should ask if, by default, the guides are part of the base? They are obviously physically part of the base - go on, try picking up a base without getting the guides. I'll wait But in all seriousness, they're just as much a part of the base as the clear plastic sidewalls. Those count too.

So lacking any other guidance, are the guides part of the base? I think they have to be, by default. If we accept that they're part of the base physically, why shouldn't they be considered part of the base as far as the rules are concerned?

Well I agree with you that the guides are physically a part of the actual base but when reading the rules you must admit that people will want to exclude it as being part of the base because of the way the rules are written.

When it comes to movement is says you place the movement template between the guides to make a movement (page 7 in the movement example). So you measure distance / movement not from the guides but from the squared part of the base of the ship. It is again not being counted when it comes to movement range. Unless the rules state otherwise I see no reason to include it in measuring range (what range so ever as the rules clearly exclude the guides for measuring range). It is part of the base, yes physically it is but the rules keep excluding them from measering movement, range and firing arc. The guides are used to have ships fly at the same way otherwise players would use movement the same way as you would use the barrel roll. The guides make sure players all move in a same matter but that is the only reason the guides are there for (again just according to the rules).

So I understand why you would think they have to be part of the base which I actually agree on but the rules make you think otherwise and do not clearly state that the guides need to be taken into account when setting up your squadron.

To be fair this discussion will not be an issue in casual games but I am sure a couple of tournament players will definately want to know this to prevent advantage/disadvantage . Not that we have this discussion going, I surely want to know the answer now haha.

You're ignoring important elements which do include the guides, such as overlapping. The guides must be included when figuring the position for an overlap, otherwise you have to balance Ship A on top of B's guides when they overlap. It's also pretty creative to assume that the intended purpose of the guides - which is to not be touched by movement templates - means the rules are saying they're not part of the base.

<shrug> You've gotten a unanimous response from everyone here, which you obviously don't like. Send it to FFG, hopefully they'll give you the answer you want.

I am not ignoring those elements, I requested where in the rules they refer to the guides being part of the base when it comes to overlapping but have not gotten them and therefore I have not included them in my reasoning. I am not making up the rules, I am just reading them and interpretting them. Assuming the guides are part of the base based on the overlapping is the same as my assumption they are not part of the base based on the range rules on page 10.

Even if the guides are part of the base based on overlapping it is still not clear whether they are part of the base when it comes to settup up your squadron.

Maybe we should forget the discussion whether the guides are part of the base as this is actually not important. We rather want to know whether the guides are counted when deploying / setting up and we can only make assumptions based on the current rules. I will ask FFG and will post it here.

You can't set up your ships with your bases balanced on the nubs of your other ships. That's overlapping. Ships aren't allowed to overlap. And no, you can't do it just because it doesn't specifically say you can't during setup. There are lots of things the rulebook doesn't think to specifically outlaw, because most people have enough sense not to force them to FAQ it as illegal.

So I'm not sure how this got to overlapping but my original reason for posting the question had nothing to do with overlapping. My question was whether th nubs could extend beyond the play edge or further into the play area than range 1 when setting up ships.

I wasn't sure because the rules say to ignore he nubs for range measurement.

In addition there is a long article floating around some of the various forums out there about swarm formation maneuvering. The basis for the article shows a box formation setup with the flat front and back sections of the bases lined up with the play edge and at range 1 (which would mean the nubs extend beyond). Based on that formation, you could execute moves of all four ships with he same speed bank and not overlap. If the ships are moved closer so the nubs are within the play area these banks don't work.

Honestly I'm still not sure if it is legal or not to set up that way.

So I'm not sure how this got to overlapping but my original reason for posting the question had nothing to do with overlapping.

The broader question is "Are the guide nubs considered part of the base?" Overlapping is sort of the gold standard used to answer that, and that is "Yes", because the simple physical reality leads to some very painful situations if they're not.

The broadly-accepted standard is:

1. The entire physical base is the base

2. There are explicit rules that say to ignore the guides when measuring range

3. There are no other exceptions relating to the guides

4. So, anything that refers to the base includes the guides except for the one explicit exception

The only possible exception I can see to this is that set up is considered "measuring" and therefore ignores the guides... But setup is entirely its own beast of measuring, using a completely different method than any other part of the game. IMHO you shouldn't try and apply a combat measurement rule to setup.

It also stands to reason that if the base includes the nubs, and your entire base must be inside the play area during setup...

Alright, well we have an official answer from FFG on this matter so here it is:

To Pieter,

In response to your question:

Rule Question:

So basically the question is when setting up your ships within range 1 of your table edge do you include the guides and put the guides against the range 1 line or do you measure the square part of the base and put that on the range 1 line?

The guide bumps count as part of the ship base for everything except for measuring range. Therefore, during setup, the guide bumps cannot be outside of the play area and cannot be beyond Range 1 (unless you are a large ship and are utilizing the large ship setup special rule). If the guide bump are outside of the play area, the ship is considered fleeing the battlefield. It’s a fine line between being in or out.

Thanks for playing!

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

This should also finally settle the "if the nubs overlap, is the ship considered overlapping" debate, since he came out and explicitly stated "The guide bumps count as part of the ship base for everything except for measuring range" So, nubs touching, bases overlapping