Not that theorist is the final say, but man that guy knows his squints.

This has to be one of the best threads I've read in a long time. Great discussion!

I came here because I'm looking to get into the interceptor scene. Guys in my group often tell me I have good intuition on repositioning my fighters, but I'm still not as good as those in the Vassal community.

This talk about Stealth vs. Shield was discussed recently in another thread. My reservation about Stealth Device is that it's difficult to say, "Yes, that extra die saved my tail." One suggestion was to roll your three dice, see if you would have been hit, then roll that extra die. Maybe that extra die doesn't help that often. I think it's worth trying to get an idea of exactly how much the Stealth Device is contributing (though the most that will do is contribute to anecdotal "data" one way or the other).

My reservation about Shield Upgrade (which Theorist kind of alluded to) is that it doesn't necessarily save you. If you chose Shield Upgrade and you find yourself later on flying with only one hull, that upgrade was a life saver. But sometimes you get hit for 2 damage, and later for two more damage. In which case it was 4 wasted points. Shield is also nice for stopping a Critical Hit that gets through.

My opinion - it's really hard to one-shot any TIE that has a Shield Upgrade on it. That's a huge selling point for me.

Well, I've said this before but I'll say it again. In my experience, the shield has actually stopped a critical hit every single game in which I have had it on Soontir Fel and he has also taken damage. It's because you already have evade tokens and dice, so if anything does get through those then it's likely to be a critical hit (since they are cancelled last). I know this is anecdotal, and also that it's fairly far outside the variance, but it's proof enough for me. By my count it's something like 8 victories that i may not have had.

More from Theorist

"I consider Stealth to be primarily a counter to effects — Stealth + PTL on Howlrunner might avoid an Assault Missile. Stealth + PTL on Soontir (or any Interceptor) might avoid a Jan-boosted Ion Cannon. It’s very effective 1vs1 in a dogfight, for Interceptors. But overall it’s weaker than Hull or Shield.

FYI none of those cards have much value on AGI 1. The health gain is relative to expected damage, in terms of how likely a health gain is to make you take longer to kill. AGI 2 gets some benefit, AGI is built for it, and if we see AGI 4 (which I think we well with Phantom’s ”Cloak”… they tend to drop new things in as gimmick, like with the stop move and new k-turn and whatever Defender’s new move will be) Stealth will be even better there than on AGI 3."

AGI 2 gets some benefit, AGI is built for it, and if we see AGI 4... Stealth will be even better there than on AGI 3."

"AGI [3] is built for it"

Stealth is unpredictable, for both you and your opponent. It might provide no survival, or it might provide more than average. The expected range is roughly 0-2, actually a bit less than that. You might be an invincible target, or you might be an "easy" kill. This leads an opponent looking to make a comeback to shoot at you (risk to try and equalize cheaply), but it leads an opponent looking to stay ahead to choose an easier target (avoid risk to maintain advantage).

Though he ultimately recommended shields, I like the point he makes here about Stealth being unpredictable. I think that can work in your favor. It makes the squint more of a wild card.

If your just running shield upgrade then you opponent just adds one more hit point to his mental tally of damage he will have to roll to destroy the squint. However, if you have stealth then he has to factor in the extra dice your getting and the higher probability of rolling evades. To me that seems like a much trickier equation to resolve and thus would keep your opponents guessing more on whether or not to attack.

Bottom line, I think that stealth on a squint just makes the decision to attack more difficult than just putting a shield on would, and you can use that to your favor.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

Absolutely. It happened round 2 last night and really hurt the rest of the game. Granted it was a HSF list but it was at Range 3 and by all rights, should have been avoided. 2 hits and 1 crit that of course was Direct Hit and poof! 33 points off the field....he even had an evade and focus but the dice giveth and the dice taketh away

What's hard to quantify is how many times you get extended use out of Stealth where it is worth way more than 1 Shield, compared to the times that Stealth fails completely and you get 1-shotted.

In my experience, using Stealth a lot, the 1-shot deaths have been rare (but do happen). The number of times I get to use Stealth repeatedly without harm to the ship is significantly more than that.

A lot of that is also dependent on personal flying style of both you and your opponent. More often than not, I've found my opponents have gone for taking the close range shots at the Academies rather than Range 2 at the Stealth Squints or Range 3 at the Stealth Howlrunner — which is how I prefer to fly my initial approach, situation allowing.

What's hard to quantify is how many times you get extended use out of Stealth where it is worth way more than 1 Shield, compared to the times that Stealth fails completely and you get 1-shotted.

In my experience, using Stealth a lot, the 1-shot deaths have been rare (but do happen). The number of times I get to use Stealth repeatedly without harm to the ship is significantly more than that.

A lot of that is also dependent on personal flying style of both you and your opponent. More often than not, I've found my opponents have gone for taking the close range shots at the Academies rather than Range 2 at the Stealth Squints or Range 3 at the Stealth Howlrunner — which is how I prefer to fly my initial approach, situation allowing.

But what you have to keep in mind is how often you would have avoided damage anyways. If you had an extra evade result, then the stealth did nothing. If you had just enough, and you're rolling 5 dice (assuming int @ R3)... then the probability that the last evade came from the stealth device is only 20%. So while you might survive 3 shots before you get hit and lose the stealth, there's a decent chance that the stealth itself didn't actually keep you from getting hit on any of those first 3 shots.

Given, you can still lose stealth and have it prevent damage... This is most easily seen when put on a B wing that rolls 2 evades, vs 3 hits. The B takes 1 damage and loses stealth, but the stealth prevented a damage from happening, which is the same as HU (I'm going on the assumption that the person didn't roll 2+ crits)...

So, my point is that even if the stealth sticks around for 3+ shots, it's possible, even plausible, to think that the stealth device didn't directly contribute to avoiding those first 3 shots. Thus the recommendation for rolling the stealth die separate from the rest.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

Absolutely. It happened round 2 last night and really hurt the rest of the game. Granted it was a HSF list but it was at Range 3 and by all rights, should have been avoided. 2 hits and 1 crit that of course was Direct Hit and poof! 33 points off the field....he even had an evade and focus but the dice giveth and the dice taketh away

This is why I generally use squints as a diversion and secondary offensive option and not as the main offensive option in my lists. That way, if I lose them I still have a good chance of winning the game still. Something that has happened on more than one occasion.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

Absolutely. It happened round 2 last night and really hurt the rest of the game. Granted it was a HSF list but it was at Range 3 and by all rights, should have been avoided. 2 hits and 1 crit that of course was Direct Hit and poof! 33 points off the field....he even had an evade and focus but the dice giveth and the dice taketh away

This is why I generally use squints as a diversion and secondary offensive option and not as the main offensive option in my lists. That way, if I lose them I still have a good chance of winning the game still. Something that has happened on more than one occasion.

This is a very good idea... make a very scary main gun and use squints as your flankers... if they go after your squint you keep your big gun alive for end game.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

Absolutely. It happened round 2 last night and really hurt the rest of the game. Granted it was a HSF list but it was at Range 3 and by all rights, should have been avoided. 2 hits and 1 crit that of course was Direct Hit and poof! 33 points off the field....he even had an evade and focus but the dice giveth and the dice taketh away

This is why I generally use squints as a diversion and secondary offensive option and not as the main offensive option in my lists. That way, if I lose them I still have a good chance of winning the game still. Something that has happened on more than one occasion.

This is a very good idea... make a very scary main gun and use squints as your flankers... if they go after your squint you keep your big gun alive for end game.

Two or three souped-up squints plus a buzzsaw shuttle actually works pretty well.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

Absolutely. It happened round 2 last night and really hurt the rest of the game. Granted it was a HSF list but it was at Range 3 and by all rights, should have been avoided. 2 hits and 1 crit that of course was Direct Hit and poof! 33 points off the field....he even had an evade and focus but the dice giveth and the dice taketh away

This is why I generally use squints as a diversion and secondary offensive option and not as the main offensive option in my lists. That way, if I lose them I still have a good chance of winning the game still. Something that has happened on more than one occasion.

This is a very good idea... make a very scary main gun and use squints as your flankers... if they go after your squint you keep your big gun alive for end game.

Two or three souped-up squints plus a buzzsaw shuttle actually works pretty well.

I've been using this to good effect with Krassis with HCL some academies and Soontir as a flanker/diversion.

I am a huge fan of Turr Phenir - Veteran Instincts / Stealth Device.

Recently been running him along side Krassis with a HLC and Recon Specialist and 2 Acadeny Ties.

The list works really well. Basically get Turr in close, shoot 4 dice, and boost or barrel roll out.

I watched him chew up 2 x-wings once just by moving out of their arc.

One big thing that most people forget about stealth is that it's not just about it's value vs. Sheild/hull. Stealth changes targeting priority in non-quantifiable ways and that can be worth even more, coupled with good flying, and the already mentioned high reward that Stealth can be, and I choose it over shield almost every time. Yep, depends on your oppoenents style and choices, but it makes those choices a lot harder.

My current go to list is still Baron's Focus:

Fel + PTL + Stealth

BH + Recon

Backstabber

NightBeast

Or Turr instead of Fel with a Seismic charge on the BH.

Who are you going to shoot first?

BH with double focus at range 1-2

Nightbeast with evade and focus at range 2

BS with evade/focus at range 2-3

Fel at range 3 (5 green dice) with Focus and Evade- if you have a shot on him at all.

Given many targets, how many shots are not even TAKEN at the ship with stealth because of it's stealth device? I would bet that it is at least 1 every other game and probably closer to 1 a game.

If you take Stealth off of Fel, he's priority target one immediately even if he has one more hp.

One big thing that most people forget about stealth is that it's not just about it's value vs. Sheild/hull. Stealth changes targeting priority in non-quantifiable ways and that can be worth even more, coupled with good flying, and the already mentioned high reward that Stealth can be, and I choose it over shield almost every time. Yep, depends on your oppoenents style and choices, but it makes those choices a lot harder.

My current go to list is still Baron's Focus:

Fel + PTL + Stealth

BH + Recon

Backstabber

NightBeast

Or Turr instead of Fel with a Seismic charge on the BH.

Who are you going to shoot first?

BH with double focus at range 1-2

Nightbeast with evade and focus at range 2

BS with evade/focus at range 2-3

Fel at range 3 (5 green dice) with Focus and Evade- if you have a shot on him at all.

Given many targets, how many shots are not even TAKEN at the ship with stealth because of it's stealth device? I would bet that it is at least 1 every other game and probably closer to 1 a game.

If you take Stealth off of Fel, he's priority target one immediately even if he has one more hp.

Honestly, regardless of SU or SD, I'd probably take out the BH first regardless. You have an average evade roll of 1.25 with a focus, and I have an average of 2.25 hits with a focus. So I'm likely to take out its shields on the first round. Meanwhile, Fel at R3 w/ SU i'm looking at an average roll of 2.5 with a focus... and an evade token to get rid of the first attack. I'm unlikely to do anything but strip his tokens with my 4 attacks. With a stealth, his evade goes up to 2.88 w/ the focus...

NB is looking at 1.88 evades with the focus, and 1.13 without it. So I could potentially get a hit in on him, even if he has an evade token. I might consider going after him since I probably have about a 50/50 chance of killing him in the first round. BS shouldn't be in my arc anyways. If he is, you're using him wrong. So, regardless of stealth/shield, the choice would be between BH and NB. NB is the higher risk/reward of the two, so positioning of the two fleets would have a lot to do with final decision between the two.

More of a rhetorical question since we're not talking fleet specific and step by step advancement... was more of giving an example of having lots of bad choices and Fel becoming a much less likely target with stealth.

Mentally, can you get yourself to roll attacks vs. a 4-5 agility ship with tokens when you have 2-3 and 3-4 agility ships to shoot first? If Fel is 3-4 like 2 other ships in the list instead of 4-5 you probably take that shot even if he has another HP. You might even take that shot sooner since you know he has extra hp to chew through and you actually have a shot on him.

Given many targets, how many shots are not even TAKEN at the ship with stealth because of it's stealth device? I would bet that it is at least 1 every other game and probably closer to 1 a game.

If you take Stealth off of Fel, he's priority target one immediately even if he has one more hp.

I agree. I think the benefit of stealth on squints is more psychological than practical. Mind games, man!

Mentally, can you get yourself to roll attacks vs. a 4-5 agility ship with tokens when you have 2-3 and 3-4 agility ships to shoot first? If Fel is 3-4 like 2 other ships in the list instead of 4-5 you probably take that shot even if he has another HP. You might even take that shot sooner since you know he has extra hp to chew through and you actually have a shot on him.

Very likely that's why my opponents have tended to take the close range shots on the Academies rather than the Alphas or Howlrunner.

While dice probabilty tables are indeed quite helpful in making squad building decisions, they are never the complete answer. X-Wing is not ultimately a mathematical puzzle. (Then it would be a Euro Game )

So if squints are psychological weapons and distractions, then would it be wiser to set them up away from your other ships at the start and make your opponent decide on his first move whether to take the bait? Or would it be better to set them up near your other ships and then boost away in the first turn or two to catch your opponent with a surprise decision they didn't expect they would have to make?

For me, they are psychological weapons and the hammers of the Empire. 2x3D attacks lays in more hits and more crits than 3x2D attacks.

So if squints are psychological weapons and distractions, then would it be wiser to set them up away from your other ships at the start and make your opponent decide on his first move whether to take the bait? Or would it be better to set them up near your other ships and then boost away in the first turn or two to catch your opponent with a surprise decision they didn't expect they would have to make?

This is exactly what I suggested in the Opening Moves thread and earlier in this thread.

I actually prefer shield over stealth...

HP helps high agi ships more than low agi ships... also helps with crits and one shots.

I totally understand the desire to prevent one-shot kills. Nothing like rolling blank green dice with a PTL and stealth Fel.

I did that 4 games in a row. Hence ditching stealth device.

Fel + PTL + Stealth

BH + Recon

Backstabber

NightBeast

Who are you going to shoot first?

BH with double focus at range 1-2

Nightbeast with evade and focus at range 2

BS with evade/focus at range 2-3

Fel at range 3 (5 green dice) with Focus and Evade- if you have a shot on him at all.

Swap in a Rebel Captive on that BH and the choice becomes a bit tougher imho.