Hey,

my group and I recently had a discussion about reinforcements and respecting group limits and I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this problem. We are playing The Shadow Rune Campaign (3 heroes + me as OL) with no addons but with the Conversion Kit. The following occured during the Interlude 2 ("The Overlord Revealed"):

[group limit for ogres in a game with 3 heroes is 1 master 0 minion; master ogre has "undying"]

HEROES TURN

- the heroes killed the master ogre (while no minion ogre was on the board)

- since the master ogre had the "Undying" ability I instantly replaced him with a minion ogre

- the heroes ended their turn (=the newly appeared minion ogre survived)

OVERLORD TURN

- quest states that the OL may reinforce 1 monster per group RESPECTING GROUP LIMITS

THE PROBLEM

- I wanted to place a master ogre on the map and my group protested heavily

- Their argument was: "You already have 1 ogre on the map so you can't place another one because that would go over the group limit."

- My argument was: "Group limits are listed separately for each type of monster in that group, meaning that there are in fact two group limits for each monster group: a limit for the minion monsters and a limit for the master monsters of that group."

- That's why I think that it IS indeed possible to place a master ogre on the map while there still is a minion ogre on the map (remember group limit for ogres was 1 master 0 minion)

THE QUESTION

- What do you guys think is the correct way to play it?

In the end my group let me place the ogre since it was irrelevant to the outcome of the quest but I would like to have a clarification for our next game sessions since I'm quite frequently using ogres. Thanks!

Group limits for 3 heroes is 0 minions and 1 master. The undying ability says to completely ignore group limits for the minion, so that does not count at all towards group limits. So you should be able to place the master. The reason has nothing to do with there being multiple group limits or anything: it's simply that the undying ability says to ignore group limits for the minion ogre that is placed.

Group limits for 3 heroes is 0 minions and 1 master. The undying ability says to completely ignore group limits for the minion, so that does not count at all towards group limits. So you should be able to place the master. The reason has nothing to do with there being multiple group limits or anything: it's simply that the undying ability says to ignore group limits for the minion ogre that is placed.

I agree.

There is only 1 group limit, it is a pair (x, y) rather than a single number. However, the "group limit" in this case says 0 minion ogres, so the minion ogre on the map is clearly an exception to the usual rules. Abilities trump core rules where contradictions occur, so the fact that Undying ignores group limits gives the minion ogre a free pass.

If you did the same thing a second time (without the first minion ogre dying) you could end up with 2 minions and 1 master ogre all on the board at once. However, you could not do it a third time because the plastic limits from 1E would kick in. (There are only two minion and 1 master ogres from D1E and you can't place more figures than the games you, group limits or not.)

FYI: This is officially cleared up from FFG on the FFG Sez Wiki on BGG:

Q: I still have some confusion over the correct functioning of Undying (and by extension, Split). Let's take Ogres as an example. Assuming one has Descent, there are two minion figures and one master figure available, with a group limit in D2E of 1/1. Say I have a master and a minion Ogre on the board in a four-hero game. If the master is killed before the minion, what happens?

A: So, "ignoring group limits" for 4-hero games really only applies to anything that came in the Conversion Kit, where certain monster groups actually have more figures than the group limits on the card would suggest. In your particular example, in a 4-hero game, when placing reinforcments, you may have up to 1 master and 1 minion on the map. If you have 2 minions and no master, you can place the master.