Hello!

One thing that has bothered me when looking at some of the Dark Heresy art/stats/descriptions, especially the Priests of Mars or the very heavily cibered-up guys/gals is

How can they live with those implants (tubes coming & going out of their mouths, heavy duty extra arms, potential coil transformers strapped, the works) ?

How can they, for instance, sleep, bathe, sit, eat, have sex, amongst other things...? Won't the tubes, for instance get in the way of certain tasks? Would they even fit within certain spaces? The situations are endless.

I suspect, tho', that once you've gone that route, the procedure itself of grafting/implanting the augmentics/ciber/bio/et al-stuff remakes your body so you'd do those things (sleep, sit, eat, etc.) differently.

Am I right? I pray to the Godemperor I am!

Lete

Who?

Sex is a redundant means of expressing Human emotion 00023. "Love". UNESCESSARY!

Being 16 rocks ^^

I'm under the impression that most of the activities mentioned above don't interests the Tech Priests. They give those kinds of things up as they ascend through the order. Bodily activities are for beings with bodies, after all, and the Priests of Mars have opted for True Flesh over flesh.

As far as all the other cyberred up characters are concerned, I'm sure they find a way. Humanity has had thousands of years to learn how to live with invasive impants, and by now they've probably figured it out. And as I once said to a player who had a similar question about supremely deformed mutants, "How? However you want."

Attila-IV said:

Hey there!

I guess I was fishing for interesting ideas to point out the differences & bizarre ways in which the W40K differs from other sci-fi settings. By describing this stuff, (the out of the ordinary ways that some cyberhumansinteract with mundane existence) I hazard a guess that it'll make it more memorable & shocking for the players!

Thanks

Lete

who?

LETE said:

2 words.

Tube Fetish.

It's perfectly legitimate that certain styles of tubes/cranial implants/bionic body parts would be "sexier" than others. And therefore members of the same/opposite sex be aroused by them. Bad jokes of course can be extrapolated from here.

What do you call a blonde with pigtails... and head tubes?

btw. Please no flaming for the bad blonde joke. My fiance just read that and I've pseudo learned my lesson...

Ewwww...........Nasty image in my head now -.-

LETE said:

You make excellent points. The tech-priests, in their quest to be closer to their Omnissiah, replace their frail, ephemeral fleshy parts with the more perfect, blessed parts of the Machine. By replacing those parts of their natural bodies with the blessed cybernetics, they come closer to Divine Perfection. Hormonal urges are repressed and removed (see the Chem Geld talent) and other fleshy needs are replaced by cybernetic parts (not talents, per se, but more of a flavor text, although there's a Talent that heals the tech-priest with electricity that could be interpreted as a way to receive nourishment from energy sources).

At some point I would say that all tech-priests gain the talent chem-geld for free. However, the more 'human' they are the more they are still likely to be... human. One instance I can think off off the top of my head is in the novel Death or Glory where it is implied that Ciaphas Cain is up to his usual antics with the tech-priest Felicia. She is only 'minorly' augmented and still (at least one can assume) for the most part still human.

Being above the 'sins of the flesh' doesn't mean that a tech-priest can't become aroused by 'other' things though. Being allowed to tour a Titan should cause most techies to have to change their lube so to speak. Or finding a long lost STC... although it does give a new meaning to cyber!

To pose a flipside to this question: How about Space Marines? They aren't chem-gelds (raging testosterone anyone?) and there are some notes of them realizing their effect on women (Loken's seeming amusement at the effect he has on the rememberancer watching him train, the strange attraction Ragnar has with the =][= psyker). Being a woman (Yes, a female gamer and gm to boot! We do exist!), I can only raise a curious eyebrow to the question: If given the chance, could an Astartes perform? This question has actually come up in the game I am running atm so I am rather interested in what others think!

Shadowkat said:

Heh! I'd imagine the fact that SM's are as physically "enhanced" as they are and their relative stature anyway... There'd be a lot of bruising and pain involved, not necessarily from size mind, but more from the sheer power behind the... vigorous motion.

And to the question of tech-priests... They could hardwire a button to the pleasure center of their brain. Every time they see something that lights their fire. bzzz. Problem solved for like 5 seconds.

Shadowkat said:

Depends on what pieces of fluff you give most credence to- it varies from 'yes of course they can' pieces, like the old description of the Fang that included space for the Wolf Lords' harems; to the 'don't be silly' attitude of those that remember that marines are constantly on courses of bizarre drugs and radiotherapy. Personally, I'd say that Astartes are almost certainly sterile, and may or may not still have urges (depending on exactly what drugs they are currently on). They're probably impotent as a result of the drugs as well, although I won't step out and say that definitively...

space marines in my world crave the glory of battle and victory above all else and will go to any lengths to achieve it. in my head they are way too busy trying to kill the enemies of the imperium to worry about more mundane cravings. their mind has one mode, find and kill the enemy.

I consider it likely that Marines are sterile. They're certainly not meant to reproduce naturally, meaning that the effects of their implants on their reproductive organs and cells might be less-than-stable - essentially, I foresee a high possibility of (non-warpy) mutants. Considering that hormone suppression and sterilization are easy procedures today, I don't think there would be any reason not to use those on Marines.

Back to "normal" people like (yeah, right...): Tech-priests mostly revel in their implants and have little problems with them and the parts of their lives they lost. Other people with implants, especially low-quality implants, might be a little less happy...

I seem to recall old (REALLY REALLY OLD) fluff that had the Sisters of Battle serving as *ahem* outlets for the Marine's baser desires.

Shadowkat said:

This question intrigues me. Though some sources may disagree, I know that at least in Warriors of the Ultrimar and The Inquisition War, Astartes are indeed capable of taking off all their external attachments, leaving an ordinary, if port ridden and bulky, human body. That being said, in any such case I think the woman or possibly man, should be very wary of their pelvis being crushed.

As for the tech-priests, the simple answer to the original question is that the more implants the have they less they just don't do normal human bodily functions because their no longer need nor want to.

Shadowkat said:

Hello again:

Being a neophyte on these matters I pose a gender question: are all Space Marines "male"? Are the Sisters of Battle the only female group in the Godemperor's forces?

Thanks

L

W?

Being a neophyte on these matters I pose a gender question: are all Space Marines "male"?

Yes. At least, there is nothing in the canon to indicate the existence of any female ones.

Are the Sisters of Battle the only female group in the Godemperor's forces?

No. There are a few all-female guard regiments, though mixed-sex ones are almost non-existant, for obvious reasons.

Actually according to the fluff mixed gender Guard regiments are reasonably common. (Not as much as single gender regiments, but certainly not unheard of). The real issue is that very few female guard models are manufactured for table top, so many people assume no women in the guard.

Sisters of Battle are the only all female/heavily female army manufactured for the minis game this is all based on.

(Then again would a man in cadian guard armor w/ helmet and solid body armor look that much different at firs glance than a woman? Look at present military battlefield uniforms w/ body armor. Once geared up only difference at first glance is the men are usually the taller ones)

According to GW there are no female space marines b/c the implants require male hormonal biology to effect the transformation. (Which makes me wonder what would happen to a female constantly given sufficient hormone replacement therapy that was implanted at the right age? I mean akin to the hormone replacement transgender folks get x 50 before the extra hormones and drugs that go into creating a marine. Would it work? If it did the result would probably be indistiguishable from any other SM as long as they kept their pants on.)

Finally, none of the information about SM implants say anything about altering genetalia, sexual function, and/or gamete production by Astartes. So even presuming Space Marines to be fertile, their children would likely be ordinary humans (unless they ended w/ birth defects due to Pa's screwy hormones and birth defects.)

Any ordinary human who wanted to have sexual relations with a space marine (assuming they can perform) better insist on being on top and perhaps find themselves a seatbelt.

Did Andre the Giant have a wife? If so she'd likely be able to give a better idea of the mechanics on this than specualtion of anyone else.

I believe that most of the late official canon embraces the idea that Space Marines, for one reason or another, just don't have sex, or for that matter children.

Although none of the known major modifications to a space marine's body make mention of physical operations or chem treatments that specifically target the reproductive system, I think it's highly likely that certain side effects could completely disable that. I assume that they're both sterile and impotent- and that if either of those things weren't true, it wouldn't matter. Decades of Psycho-conditioning and dogma leave them stoically fixed on living a life of adamant discipline and strife for the Emperor. Anything else is the sin of Laxity.

Essentially; the staggeringly thorough rigors of creating a space marine are precise enough to (by design) leave nothing but a finely honed killing machine. Other fluff might disagree, but as always, even the official fluff is full of so many contradictions and gaps that it's really up to the interpreter.

That's how they're portrayed in my games.

Actually according to the fluff mixed gender Guard regiments are reasonably common. (Not as much as single gender regiments, but certainly not unheard of). The real issue is that very few female guard models are manufactured for table top, so many people assume no women in the guard.

The Cain books have noted several times that the mixed gender Valhallans are a pretty big exception.

Nojokejoe45 said:

What "official canon"

1) I've yet to see any "official canon'" that provides an answer to the issue at all. It's one they seem to have avoided.

(Likely due to their marketing demographic skewing younger and younger and not wanting to upset parents regarding the highest selling range of models thay have. Doesn't matter near as much if chaos daemons take a sales hit due to slaanesh's blatant sexual overtones bothering mommy and daddy, but a 1% decrease in SM sales could be crippling)

2) The only place it seems it is even remotely addressed is the novels, and their seems to be zero continuity consistency control there, so whatever any given author thinks might sound good the day he writes it down seems to be the way of it.

3) The whole "everything is canon, nothing is true" saw that GW seems to trot out every time inconsistencies are pointed out seems to leave no absolutes except (and then only maybe) what's in the background sections of the most recent core rulebook release.

4) I certainly agree that side effects of the massive drug hormone and genetic treatment easily COULD render SM sterile, impotent and otherwise miserable. However, absent material on what the side effects the are, I think its a stretch to say it's "highly likely" that they cause any given known effect. Someone's "hyper-testosterone, of course they have massive sex drives" argument from earlier in the thread is equally valid speculation. Side effects of such massive alteration can go in almost any direction.

5) The point I was trying to make above was that even though Astartes are genetically altered, its done via implants and broad morphological mutations. W/o the genetic alteration specifically being designed to pass hereditarily (i.e. the changes also altering the DNA governing gamete production in a way that makes the alterations into inhertitable traits) then even IF [and yes that's a big uber-speculative for the sake of a hypothetical IF] Space Marines were fertile and able to produce viable offspring, those offspring would not be Space Marines themselves. They'd at best be unmodified humans, at worst who knows what kind of freaks sperm basted the astartes hormone cocktail would produce.

Cifer said:

Ah, but IIRC one of the previous edition Guard Codexes (I'll have to check which one) mentions that Cadian IG regiments (who often never see their homeworld again) are often mixed gender and their children born during service are generally raised to be inducted into the "whiteshield" rookie units and later act as replacements in the line squads.

Well... Cadians are more "Space Marines lacking implants" than "average guard unit", so...

Umm, Tanith First and Only anyone?

DocIII said:

I guess I shouldn't have mentioned 'official canon' and the 40k universe in the same sentence. All apologies there. Even still, I think that in most depictions of the Space Marine, there is a lot deductions one can make through information about a Space Marine's lifestyle and mindset (i.e. 4 hours of sleep while off of active duty, and 15 minutes of "free time" to pretty much contemplate their relationship with the Emperor.) I don't see them having any time to indulge whatever sex drives they may or may not have. It also seems fairly reasonable to say that Space Marines don't retire. They live their unforgiving lifestyles until they are dead- presumably dead in battle.

Testosterone or no, they are also disciplined military men and religious fanatics in the strictest sense of the words. So if their sex drives were so huge; I don't believe their code would have them copulating left and right- more likely, those 'unnecessary, unclean urges" would be sated by even more hormone/chem therapy. To give in to an urge is laxity; to conquer it is discipline.

I also raise another interesting point for those of you who seem to want Space Marines to be lovers or proud fathers- even supposing the marines in question get around to sexing it up and unleashing their unconquerable base instincts, where would they do it? More likely than not the closest thing would be a little "Don't ask, Don't tell". Although I guess I shouldn't rule that out entirely- as it was very common in ancient Greek warrior cultures...

A long story short- I don't think that GW is neglecting an important issue here. To me it's obvious- marines are not made for romance and lust, and as staggeringly professional, disciplined, and honed as they are, I find it hard to believe that they would indulge in anything that they were not meant to. In their mindset, the "The Emperor does not require it of them." Some people however, will always see what they want to believe, and in 40k, they are completely entitled.

Hey there!

Also, akin to the Middle Ages' fanaticism about knights (propagated, amongst other things, by the various chivalrous tales & sheer awesomesness of seeing one in the all his resplendent armoured glory), wouldn't some of the most popular marines become sort of like cult figures or media stars, at least for propaganda purposes? Shouldn't we imagine a typical teenage noble-born daughter's bedroom festooned with W40k's equivalent of posters of famous SM (like Beckham/Jordan posters), or waiting with bated breath for the latest installment of Such-&-Such SM's saga on their equivalent of the telly?

Or am I straying too far from the official truth?

L

W?