I'm sorry to do this - the same cost / effect issue came up last night and I am not sure where we stand - The exact scenario yesterday was again related to Tommen

Marshalling: Kneel Tommen Baratheon to draw a card.

The same player also had attached Flogged and Chained to an opponents character

Response: After a character is knelt by a triggered effect, kneel attached character.

So every marshalling phase, the player was getting the benefit of Tommen and also kneeling an oponents character - for the one action ... it just feels so wrong!

The same player also has cards moving in/out of shadows and has Alchemists Guild Hall

Limited Response: After a card comes out of Shadows, kneel Alchemist's Guild Hall to choose and kneel a character or location ....

After AGH kneels a character, the other character with F&C on him also gets knelt ...I have absolutely no problem with that

In the previous thread Bomb quoted a response from Damon

29/01 @ 2:27pm - "No, paying a cost is not considered a card effect"

So is that the accepted answer?

Meaning that kneeling Tommen (as a cost) should not trigger further kneeling as per F&C?

Kneeling to pay a cost cannot trigger Flogged & Chained. The text says knelt BY a triggered effect. You kneel Tommen to trigger an effect, he is not knelt as the resolution of an effect.

Thanks doulos

I thought that was the case but wasn't sure enough to enforce it last night

It seems clear enough as F&C uses the term "triggered effect"

The previous thread mentioned Arbour Guardsment a few times - I suppose this is where is gets more confusing

Response: After you kneel a standing character using a card effect, add 2 gold to your gold pool from the treasury (Limit once per round).

If Tommen is knelt to draw a card, would that meet the criteria for A-G

The controller is kneeling Tommen as a cost but is able to kneel due to the text on the card ... which is none-the-less still a card effect?

Remember that the word from FFG was that Arbor Guardsman is badly worded and potentially conveys a meaning similar to Hellholt Engineer -- that the designers do not want the Guardsman to have. It is slated to receive errata. So it is probably not a great idea use that for comparisons until we get the next FAQ.

Anyway, here's what you should know for response opportunities, based on that last thread and other rulings/definitions:

1) If a response says "...after a character is knelt by an effect ...", that opportunity is only met if the kneeling happened as part of the effect/result/resolution of the thing. Costs will not open that response opportunity.

2) If a response simply says "...after a character is knelt..." (ie, without the "by an effect" text), then the response opportunity is opened whenever a character goes from standing to kneeling for any reason - including cost.

So, based on the wording of Flogged and Chained, kneeling a character like Tommen to pay the cost of his own (or any) ability will not create the requisite response opportunity (the way that kneeling a character as the result of Alchemist's Guild Hall will).

Thanks ktom - I thought it would be easier to do this again in a more streamlined thread

Re definition 1) - that suggests that it does not really matter whether it says trigger effect or just card effect ... as costs are not effects either way

That certainly the seems to be the natural / instinctive way things should be - but opponents are trying to squeeze every edge they can

but opponents are trying to squeeze every edge they can

Everyone does at one point or another. The relatively loose templating of thise game - which is both a great thing about it (increasing interactions, combo possibilities, and creativity) and a bad thing about it (creates a lot of arguments that end up being pretty pointless) - kind of encourages it, sometimes.

Re definition 1) - that suggests that it does not really matter whether it says trigger effect or just card effect ... as costs are not effects either way

That is correct. The adjective on the word "effect" (triggered, card, etc.) doesn't make any difference when looking to see if a response opportunity was created "by" a (whatever) effect. The word "by" indicates that you look at what happened during resolution to see if your response opportunity was created, and while the "character" of the initiation may define the type of effect, resolutions are all pretty much the same.