As an experiment - try rolling all but 1 die for your defense. If you haven't fully cancelled the hits yet (including if you spent the focus token) go ahead and roll 1 more for the stealth. If you start rolling that way, you might start seeing how often the stealth is actually used / how much it blocks.

This is pure brilliance. I will try that.

However I don't have to FULLY cancel the hits - IE if the attacker rolls 3 hits... I would only need to roll 1 additional focus / evade to equal the benefit of the extra shield. So even if I lost the stealth device on the first attack, it could still equal the damage reduction of the shield upgrade.

But still good point and god idea.

So even if I lost the stealth device on the first attack, it could still equal the damage reduction of the shield upgrade.

Only if you actually avoid a extra damage. If you roll 4 blanks for example the stealth device did nothing. As Khyros pointed out, at best you'll have a 5/8th chance of the SD doing anything at all. But the Shield will always help.

Well sure.

But when you say 5/8ths chance of it doing anything at all.... the "Anything at all" = preventing one damage. And there is a chance that I can get additional damage prevented.

You see most of the math here is only showing your chance or getting a successful avoidance roll on one attack... but doesn't take into consideration the extra die rolls you get for future attacks. Imagine if the shield upgrade had a similar function - in that if you only got hit once in an attack - and that hit went to shields... that the shield instantly regenerated and you could re-use that upgrade for the next attack with the same circumstances.

I find stealth device is best used on ships that already have high agility. IE it will last longer on a TIE fighter or interceptor than on a B wing or Falcon. Shield should be used on less agile ships. If they are going to be hit in the first attack anyway, it gives you another hit to chip off. If they can avoid the damage altogether for longer, stealth device us the way to go.

And there is a chance that I can get additional damage prevented.

Yes but that's sort of the whole point.

Shield Upgrade is 1 damage avoided.

Stealth Device is 0 to X damage avoided.

So do you pay the extra point for knowing you'll avoid one damage, or do you take the chance of it maybe doing nothing at all?

The chance to absorb zero damage is small. the chance to avoid 1 damage is large. the chance to avoid 2 damage is good. the chance to avoid 3 damage is smaller... but still the odds are incredibly good that you'll gain prevent more damage on the stealth device than you would with the shield upgrade.

I wouldn't even be trying to drive this point home if the costs were reversed. To me, the stealth device is the CLEAR winner, yet it is cheaper than the Shield Upgrade... which makes it unbalanced IMO. The shield upgrade has only one use as I see it - in an R2D2/Draw their Fire build.

Stealth device is useless on ships with low agility. It should be placed on highly agile ships so they can even more easily avoid hits. For instance, Y Wings are not agile. Adding a second defense die against a TIE fighter it interceptor at range 1 is pointless because the attacker will still net one or more hits, so shield upgrade is preferred on low agility craft. However, on ships that adjust have 3 agility or even two, stealth device is the clear winner. Like has been said already several times on this board, Shield upgrade only prevents one incoming hit, while stealth device can prevent many. Stealth device+R2F2 is one of my favorite combos for x wings, especially on Biggs, but it's more expensive than just R2D2

But again. The shield device doesn't benefit you if the enemy deals high damage attacks. It will always take one extra damage to kill you, but if it takes the same number of attacks did it truly do anything? No, no it didn't. While a stealth device is clearly better on a higher agility ship the shield device has a comparably low chance of benefit even if it has a 100% chance of activation. And since anyone in their right mind would try to keep an agility one ship at range three as long as possible a stealth device might not be a great investment but it isn't "useless".

Stealth device is useless on ships with low agility.

I strongly disagree. It means one extra defense die - which in itself will be 5/8's of a shield token. Considering it's cost is less than that of a shield upgrade, specifically 6/8ths the cost... it's only 1/8th the difference in cost to minimum output. So while you are gambling when using a stealth device, you are only gambling 1/8th of a point, and can gain so much more than that if you even block just one hit.

Even in your example of a Y-Wing - a shield upgrade would a poor investment if the Y-Wing didn't have R2-D2. A Stealth Upgrade has a 5/8th chance of being more useful than the shield upgrade. and at 3/4ths the cost.

Also we haven't even begun to consider the mental impact that has on the game. IE your ship with a stealth device may prove to be a deterrent to your opponent - IE he/she may go for an easier hit first.

Additionally, lets say I've got a Y-Wing with Stealth Device and you attack me with a TIE/ln and roll 1 hit and 1 focus... you a re probably more likely to spend your focus on attack and not have it left for defense.... So it will force people to PLAY differently.

There is a wealth of conversation to be had about the strategic implications of a stealth device as well..

But again. The shield device doesn't benefit you if the enemy deals high damage attacks. It will always take one extra damage to kill you, but if it takes the same number of attacks did it truly do anything? No, no it didn't

THIS.

Suppose my Y-Wing with shield upgrade ends up getting down to only 2 hull left. a TIE/ln attacks and gets 1 hit, 1 crit. I get a damage, and my crit is a Direct Hit. Well in this case, the shield upgrade did virtually nothing for me. (Possibly could have downgraded one earlier crit... but it really all depends on the situation). Or perhaps I have 4 hull left and a TIE Interceptor rolls 3 crits direct hits - ..

The dice can be unfavorable with either upgrade. I'd much rather take the cheaper upgrade. Also I'd much rather have the upgrade that is capable of preventing MULTIPLE hits.

I definitely think stealth device is the best choice in most situations, but if you only have one defense die stock, and you add a second, the attacker will likely still net one or more hits if they focus 3-4 dice. I'm not sure shield upgrade is worth it here, either, I just feel like those three points can be better spent elsewhere instead of in a low agility, high priority target.

I definitely think stealth device is the best choice in most situations, but if you only have one defense die stock, and you add a second, the attacker will likely still net one or more hits if they focus 3-4 dice. I'm not sure shield upgrade is worth it here, either, I just feel like those three points can be better spent elsewhere instead of in a low agility, high priority target.

Fair enough. But I urge you to consider that exact same scenario with a shield upgrade instead - you would still likely end up taking the same amount of damage... and you had to spend 4 points to get there, instead of just 3. That 1 point could have gone to giving a pilot a Determination upgrade or something.

Stealth device plays the odds. If you aren't comfortable with that, use shield upgrade (or soon, hull upgrade). There's also the issue of putting stealth device on a low agility ship but that has been discussed to death in dozens of threads already

Stealth device is useless on ships with low agility.

I strongly disagree. It means one extra defense die - which in itself will be 5/8's of a shield token. Considering it's cost is less than that of a shield upgrade, specifically 6/8ths the cost... it's only 1/8th the difference in cost to minimum output. So while you are gambling when using a stealth device, you are only gambling 1/8th of a point, and can gain so much more than that if you even block just one hit.

Even in your example of a Y-Wing - a shield upgrade would a poor investment if the Y-Wing didn't have R2-D2. A Stealth Upgrade has a 5/8th chance of being more useful than the shield upgrade. and at 3/4ths the cost.

Also we haven't even begun to consider the mental impact that has on the game. IE your ship with a stealth device may prove to be a deterrent to your opponent - IE he/she may go for an easier hit first.

Additionally, lets say I've got a Y-Wing with Stealth Device and you attack me with a TIE/ln and roll 1 hit and 1 focus... you a re probably more likely to spend your focus on attack and not have it left for defense.... So it will force people to PLAY differently.

There is a wealth of conversation to be had about the strategic implications of a stealth device as well..

This is just wrong. If we simplify the scenario and say that if the stealth rolls an evade, it cancels a hit (compared to say... being attacked with 1 hit, vs your 2 evades... the second evade from the stealth did jack as it was fully cancelled before the stealth came into play)

It has a 5/8 chance (assuming you have a focus) of cancelling 1 hit, and being equally useful. Then, assuming that you cancelled all of the hits, it has a 5/8 chance of being useful again, assuming you still have that focus. So, in the BEST CASE scenario, it will cancel 2+ hits 25/64 of the time, or 39%. So, if we just went with that right there, you have 3/8 of 0, 5/8*3/8 of 1, and 5/8*5/8 of 2 cancelled, giving you a BEST CASE scenario of 1.015625 damage saved. Best case. If you don't have a focus for either attack, that goes down drastically to .515625 damage saved. Best case.

And FYI, you're gambling 1 damage for 1 point, with a 23% chance (assuming you have a defensive focus, which is a big assumption) to match it, and 39% return to exceed, and a 37% chance to flop.

Edit: Also, SU has nothing to do with R2D2 on a Y wing. It's not like you're going to run away at 2 forward regening 4 shields before you get hit again.

I'm not sure shield upgrade is worth it here, either

Well that's a whole different discussion.

There's the question of if the Shield or Stealth upgrade is worth the points at all. Then there's the question of which of the two is going to be a better return on the points.

you would still likely end up taking the same amount of damage...

No, if you have a shield upgrade, it took 1 more hit to kill you then it might of otherwise. It may of taken the same number of attacks, but it still took 1 more damage over all. Which is something the Stealth Device may or may not offer.

The very idea that you can count on having a focus simply doesn't work, you can't count on it every turn for use in defense... Unless you're willing to forgo a kill in order to save that focus for defense. Not to mention the possibility of the other guy blocking your ship so you don't get an action in the first place.

And FYI, you're gambling 1 damage for 1 point, with a 23% chance (assuming you have a defensive focus, which is a big assumption) to match it, and 39% return to exceed, and a 16% chance to flop.

Thank you because that is my point... SD vs SU is a question of how you want to play the odds. SU is 1 HP no matter what you put it on, plus it's a possible missed Crit. The SD is a varable amount of additional HP anywhere between 0 and 10 depending on how you roll.

This is just wrong. If we simplify the scenario and say that if the stealth rolls an evade, it cancels a hit (compared to say... being attacked with 1 hit, vs your 2 evades... the second evade from the stealth did jack as it was fully cancelled before the stealth came into play)

I wouldn't say it did Jack in that case - for one, it's presence manipulated the way your opponent attacked. He/She might have sent his biggest ship against your Stealth Device'd ship - in hopes of removing the device... and therefore sparing another ship from the threat. It's more than JUST a numbers game, it's also a mental game - though I DO stand by the numbers as the simple fact that it's only 3/4th the price of the SU speaks volumes.

I understand that there's a mental aspect to the game, and that a Fel w/ 2 Focii + Evade + Stealth is a huge deterrent to most people to shoot at, you're relying on your opponent to make the mistake of allowing emotion to sway his tactics (That said, present me R1 targets and Fel through an asteroid at R3 with the above, and I'll shoot at the R1 things anyday... regardless of the SD being present). And while you should capitalize on the mistake your opponent made, you shouldn't build your strategy around your opponent not knowing what to do.

And point values are not linear either. It's more than 7x easier to fit 1 point into a squad (for an R2) than it is 7 points for an HLC (you basically have to build your squad around the whereas the R2 is just fitted in at the end). Likewise, it's easier to fit SD at 3 points than SU at 4 points, more than 1 point worth. It seems like the designers of the game designed it such that 105-110 point squad would be awesome, forcing you to make 5-10 points of tough choices to get under 100 points. Therefore, when tacking on the last minute modifiers, SD is often a better choice just because it's 3 points. But if we're talking strictly point for point cost, SU is better.

Some examples of just over 100 point builds that would be great

Howl + 7 Academies 102 points

5 X wings 105 points

5 B wings 110 points

6 A wings 102 points

PS6 squad (with ICT) 105 points

5 Gold w/ ICT 112 points

8 Obsidians 104 points

7 BSP w/ VI 105 points

I'm sure you could come up with similar lists for most point values, but it seems like (and would make sense to do this) the designers forced tough choices in order to keep you under 100 points. (which is one reason I doubt there'll be a point increase for standard tourney - unless it was designed all along to increase at some point).

He/She might have sent his biggest ship against your Stealth Device'd ship

You can't assume things like that, not when looking at % chances of something happening.

If my Stealth Device is still equipped by the time we are close enough to be bumping into one another... then as far as I'm concerned it's ABSOLUTELY done it's job.

Sure, that's the point though. It may or may not still be there. You're playing the odds on it actually preventing even a single damage. If it does that, then yes it's better then a Shield Upgrade. But if it doesn't, then it's nothing more then a waste of 3 points.

The Shield Upgrade will always prevent 1 point of damage, every single time. The Stealth Device may or may not. So best thing to do, is figure out which is going to give you the better chance for that ship to stick around and earn the points you spent on it.

But "preventing a single point of damage" may not actually represent any increase in survivability at all. Arguing the flaws of the stealth device is pointless when part of the argument is that a shield device has no guarantee of helping either. They are both gambles and the stealth device has a lower cost and higher potential payoff.

But "preventing a single point of damage" may not actually represent any increase in survivability at all. Arguing the flaws of the stealth device is pointless when part of the argument is that a shield device has no guarantee of helping either. They are both gambles and the stealth device has a lower cost and higher potential payoff.

Well in that case - you shouldn't fly anything besides 8 tie swarms. They have the potential of doing 24 damage per round. No other list has that potential. It's a gamble that they're going to do that, but it has the highest pay off.

And yes, the SU may be completely useless anyways - you could be overkilled, which means that it did nothing because you would have died in the same attack anyways. But the same could be said for any damage saved via stealth. Even if it saved 2 damage, you could be killed by 3 hits, in which case it was useless. So, this thought should be a wash, or potentially hurt the SD even more since saving 2 dmg can be useless, whereas the SU can only save 1 dmg and be useless (which would be the same probability for the SD).

So, we could figure out the probability of being overkilled, and then reduce the value of each of them by that percentage (well, 1-percentage). But it would be a wash when we're discussing ratios of SD to SU anyways.

Sure preventing 1 point of damage may be inconsequential as far as crits are concerned... or astoundingly bad die rolling too for that matter...

All in all I can take 4 Stealths for the price of 3 shields. I'll take the stealths just about any day.

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper. It's FAR superior in my opinion. The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both). In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me. Even the Millennium Falcon for example. Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so still saving him from a point of damage... What am I missing here?

I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper. It's FAR superior in my opinion. The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both). In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me. Even the Millennium Falcon for example. Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so still saving him from a point of damage... What am I missing here?

I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.

But you were 76% likely to roll at least 1 evade w/o a focus or stealth already. If you add focus, you're 95% likely to roll at least 1. Which means that the stealth device is only working that 5% of the time when you roll 3 blanks. And then you only have a 62.5% of the stealth rolling the final evade. So, in this attack, you gaining an average of .03125 hull from the 3 points of SD, with a 37.5% of adding more.

Now, the SD could help you save your evade token, as 3 dice only have a 32% chance of rolling 2+ evades, or 68% w/ focus. With 4 dice, this goes up marginally to 48% or 85%. So, if you want to see what the probability that stealth keeps your evade token for that attack, you have to say that you rolled 1 evade out of the first 3 dice (44%) and then the 4th from stealth rolled an evade (37.5%)... this generates a 16.5% that the stealth saved you your evade token. With focus, it actually goes down to 15% (since you're much more likely to not need the 4th die from stealth).

I don't get why Stealth Device is cheaper. It's FAR superior in my opinion. The only exception might be if you are using R2D2 or Draw Their Fire (or both). In pretty much every other situation the stealth device just flat out seems better to me. Even the Millennium Falcon for example. Lets say he gets hit round 1 and loses it.... it's still likely to add an evade to his total rolls, so still saving him from a point of damage... What am I missing here?

I would never consider using stealth device on anything that doesn't have 3 defense dice. The trouble with stealth device is people view it as disposable , "it will soak up a couple of hits and be be gone". This is a fallacy and doesn't have to be the case. The more defense dice the more powerful focus becomes. The real power from stealth comes only when flying interceptors with PTL. I rarely us focus to modifying anything except defense roll and alway take the second action to evade. So if I'm being attacked at range 2 from say an xwing (avg hit 2), their first shot is already cancelled. Beyond that I only need to roll one focus or evade on four dice to cancel the other hit. Stealth device is cheap due to the fact it is only good combined with other things to break it.

But you were 76% likely to roll at least 1 evade w/o a focus or stealth already. If you add focus, you're 95% likely to roll at least 1. Which means that the stealth device is only working that 5% of the time when you roll 3 blanks. And then you only have a 62.5% of the stealth rolling the final evade. So, in this attack, you gaining an average of .03125 hull from the 3 points of SD, with a 37.5% of adding more. Now, the SD could help you save your evade token, as 3 dice only have a 32% chance of rolling 2+ evades, or 68% w/ focus. With 4 dice, this goes up marginally to 48% or 85%. So, if you want to see what the probability that stealth keeps your evade token for that attack, you have to say that you rolled 1 evade out of the first 3 dice (44%) and then the 4th from stealth rolled an evade (37.5%)... this generates a 16.5% that the stealth saved you your evade token. With focus, it actually goes down to 15% (since you're much more likely to not need the 4th die from stealth).

The 4th defense dice is nice when your getting squirly at range one.

I'm going to make a video tonight - a LIVE action scenario of a ship approaching the enemy with stealth device.

Since most people tend to like putting it on a 3 AGI ship like an interceptor, and most prefer shields on a 1 AGI ship like a Y-Wing... I'll go for balance and I'll try an X-Wing - I'll even say Biggs for this version. Biggs vs 2 Tie/ln, a Bountry Hunter, and Soontir Fel with PTL . I'll run each attack several times to get a rough average and post my results with my obviously biased analysis at the end! lol