They only have 6 powers now + the Primaris.

On the other hand, that means Hive Tyrants can get Warp Blast!

Assault has suffered on many levels in 6E, so it's not just the Genestealers.

Alex

I dunno. I DO NOT PLAY TT. But it looks to me like Hammer of Wrath has greatly improved assault jump troops and assaulting monstrous critters and cavalry, at least on paper.

Guys I get that genestealers are meant to wreck face in melee, that isn't my problem, I don't mind the 3 WS65 attacks each that do 1d10+14 at pen 7 with razor sharp and tearing, I really don't, but how are you meant to kill them with shooting either?

Consider the likely scenario; I give the squad 2 turns worth of shooting vs the genestealers (they're really fast), now, the genestealers are winning initiative (+12), so they're going to start running. This means a -40 to all BS tests to shoot them (-20 for run, -20 for Hard Target) so even with aiming and firing on full auto (which consumes 2 turns) you're looking at about a 50% chance to hit for each marine. Then we have their 2 80% dodges each. So the likely outcome of a full squad firing is to maybe kill one per 2 turns of shooting, maybe. Then they close and fate points are getting burned all over the place. Some people say use flamers, equally if not more worthless than bolters since your chance to hit depends on their agility, giving you a 30% chance to hit or 50% if you have cleanse and purify, then there is still their dodge and the only 30% probability they will catch fire even if you do hit them. Plus if they're close enough for flamers you have exactly 1 turn to kill them all or its time to burning those fate points left and right.

I'm looking at how this encounter is going to go, looking at the numbers and realizing if I field more than 2 the squad is getting wiped.

Well use the MotX ones instead, which are actually much more like the TT ones. Their Dodge is 60% (Agility 40 + Dodge +10 + Unnatural Agility (x2)). They also do less damage.

FOUR attacks, by the way, not three. (Lightning Attack + Multiple Arms).

If the Kill Team is smart and has the opportunity, they will stay in wide open areas with lots of visibility, hopefully on an elevated position.

I'm looking at how this encounter is going to go, looking at the numbers and realizing if I field more than 2 the squad is getting wiped.

And this is why the DW game requires skill. Like their PCs, the players need to be masters at combat. The kill-team should check if they can do additional attacks during the first turn (like Fire For Effect) or use other abilities. For the second turn, the kill-team should offer a tank or two tanks as target (brothers with Toughness 50+). They have a chance surviving, if they draw the surviving Genestealers and go into "Defensive Stance". Defensive Stance is key to survival against Genestealers, at least if the team outnumbers them. If they can down even one more Genestealer in the first two turns, the tanks should have a better chance surviving the turn they come crashing in. And then the other brothers need to come in and save their rear ends.

But if it's still too much for you, reduce AG or eliminate Hard Target, depending on how dangerous you want them to remain in melee.

Alex

PS As GM, always assume that the kill-team has better offensive/defensive capabilities in a live-battle than the straight stats and most common talents suggest.

Genestealers are weird. In space hulk missions they're portrayed as unstoppable terminator-killers, but whenever encountered as part of a cult (like the first Ciaphas Cain novel, or Final Sanction), they're killed, well, not exactly without effort, but significantly more easily. But anyway, here's my math:

First, the diameter of a heavy flamer's cone at 30m is a bit over 16m, so if the size of the corridor/doorway/wherever they are is smaller, that should be a hefty dodge bonus reduction for the 'stealers. Second, on open ground the obvious weapon is the heavy bolter. Its range is 150m, so that's at least 3 rounds until they can close in (the MotX version charges 24 and runs 48 metres). If the critters keep running in a straight line towards the player, I'd give at least some bonus for the shooter, because the baddies don't use their agility to evade, so that adds one or two additional rounds, too. And they can only dodge one bullet (hit) per DoS, if I recall it correctly.

"And they can only dodge one bullet (hit) per DoS, if I recall it correctly."

More, due to Unnatural Agility.

Ciaphas Cain novels are to some extent comedy (not even black comedy), and in comedies things are squishy.

Not to mention the effects of artistic licence and product focus. The buzz word "bolter porn" exists for a reason.

In terms of style, though, I think most if not all sources are fairly similar in representing Genestealers as "squishy but dangerous once in melee" - thus, the trick is to shoot them before they get to you, and this is where, in the various novels etc, the protagonists suddenly develop cases of "unlimited ammo" and "dead-eye reflex hip shooting", whilst the antagonists surprisingly forget all about tactics and just zergrush our heroes head-on.

I don't mean to go and and on about TT comparisons, but part of the issue here is that TT does not have a Dodge mechanic (except for a few critters, for which it is an Unvulnerable Save). RPG genecritters on the other hand can dodge, which makes them much less squishy. If you wanted to make them as squishy as they are in TT, you would have to... bring down their Toughness probably. But FFG has translated Toughness to Toughness in pretty much a 1 : 1 ratio, where T4 in TT x UNx2 in the RPG, with no other factors being considered (with the possib le exception of the Orks in BC/OW, which have lower TB but do have True Grit).

"And they can only dodge one bullet (hit) per DoS, if I recall it correctly."

More, due to Unnatural Agility.

Hold on, let me understand this. Dodge in Core Rulebook, p. 238-239 says " When Dodging an area effect weapon (such as a flamer), a successful Dodge Test moves the character to the edge of the area of effect, as long as it is no further away than the character’s Agility Bonus in metres. If the character would need to move further than this to avoid the attack, then the Dodge Test automatically fails ." Since the diameter of the heavy flamer's cone is, like I mentioned, over 16 metres (not much, but over), the quoted part means a MotX Genestealer (Agility bonus 8, unnatural included) cannot be allowed to dodge as a reaction - or, rather, takes it and fails it automatically. The Agility test, described at the Flame effect, still applies. Or is this Ag test the allowed reaction, and no extra Dodge may be allowed? How does it play out?

Moving on to the full-auto fire, basically the Unnatural (x2) Agility (core, p. 136) gives a +10 bonus to the Ag test. Since Dodge is not an Opposed test, it cannot count towards the DoS too, right? Or am I missing something here?

Otherwise I agree, our HERO OF THE IMPERIUM might not be the most unbiased narrator, and bolter porn is bolter porn

If someone is opposed to bolter porn, they are reading the wrong game's forum. There's a reason why I keep old ROFs for bolters, except HB.

Genestealers are Elite-level enemies, which means if your GM pits your kill-team of 5 against 10 of them, you know your GM hates you. If 6 Genestealers are rushing you, your kill-team must completely focus fire on one Genestealer and move on to the next after one is eliminated.

Look, the scenario under dicussion isn't a simple case of pointing bolters into the right direction for players. Players need to find the right strategy and maybe take fate points on to-hit rolls in early rounds or else fate will have to get burnt later.

Give your players a tactics roll to assist them in making some choices, if necessary.

Alex

"And they can only dodge one bullet (hit) per DoS, if I recall it correctly."

More, due to Unnatural Agility.

Hold on, let me understand this. Dodge in Core Rulebook, p. 238-239 says " When Dodging an area effect weapon (such as a flamer), a successful Dodge Test moves the character to the edge of the area of effect, as long as it is no further away than the character’s Agility Bonus in metres. If the character would need to move further than this to avoid the attack, then the Dodge Test automatically fails ." Since the diameter of the heavy flamer's cone is, like I mentioned, over 16 metres (not much, but over), the quoted part means a MotX Genestealer (Agility bonus 8, unnatural included) cannot be allowed to dodge as a reaction - or, rather, takes it and fails it automatically. The Agility test, described at the Flame effect, still applies. Or is this Ag test the allowed reaction, and no extra Dodge may be allowed? How does it play out?

Moving on to the full-auto fire, basically the Unnatural (x2) Agility (core, p. 136) gives a +10 bonus to the Ag test. Since Dodge is not an Opposed test, it cannot count towards the DoS too, right? Or am I missing something here?

Otherwise I agree, our HERO OF THE IMPERIUM might not be the most unbiased narrator, and bolter porn is bolter porn

Hmmm. Wait a second. Unnaturals work differently in different game systems and I might be mixing them up.

*goes to bookshelf*

Yes you are right, it gets a straight +10 to Dodge for UAx2, not extra DoS.

As far as Flame goes, the Agility Test and Dodge are separate.

The Genestealet actually has to make 3 Agility Tests, only one of which is a Reaction.

1. Test to avoid being hit. (50% for MotX Genesteakers -- Ag 40 + 10 for UAx2)

2. Dodge, if it is possible to move out of the area. BTW note that the flame is a cone and the maximum width of the cone is at the very end -- which is also where it stops, so the Genestealer could jump backward. 60% chance for MotX Genestealers -- Ag 40 + 10 for Dodge +10 + 10 for UAx2).

3. Test to avoid catching on fire. (50% for MotX Genesteakers -- Ag 40 + 10 for UAx2)

So, the actual chance for the critter to catch on fire is .5 x .4 x .5 = 12.5% if it can Dodge and 25% if it cannot.

I haven't read every response but will go back and finish reading them in a bit. But I offer a suggestion, and my reasoning for it. The problem that I see isn't the stats of the genestealer it's the core rule design for dodging that makes it a flat roll, when it should be treated as an opposed skill test like every other opposed. skill test in the game. To me this seems to be a huge over site on game design. And is a house rule I use. Skill matters both in the attack and dodge. A highly accurate and skilled attacker should be able to take into account someone is going to dodge or parry.

I don't like the idea of attack and dodge being opposed tests.

For opposed tests, both participants should have to roll on the same skill/attribute for it to make sense. It's one action the opposed test is applied to, so there should be only one skill to do the test(the skill which applies to the action). Attacking and dodging are two actions and thus aren't an opposed test, because they base on different skills. Both skills have to do with each other, but those are still two skills and two actions. No opposed test!

Not true.. Take stealth vs perception as an example, or interrogation vs willpower.

The fact is the skill of the attacker should play just as an important roll as the skill of the defender. Combat is fluid. It's not I look at your bullet flying at me and jump out of the way. It's I see you pointing your gun and attempt to move. A trained attacker will take that into account or attempt to when making the shot and adjust.

I haven't read every response but will go back and finish reading them in a bit. But I offer a suggestion, and my reasoning for it. The problem that I see isn't the stats of the genestealer it's the core rule design for dodging that makes it a flat roll, when it should be treated as an opposed skill test like every other opposed. skill test in the game. To me this seems to be a huge over site on game design. And is a house rule I use. Skill matters both in the attack and dodge. A highly accurate and skilled attacker should be able to take into account someone is going to dodge or parry.

That is not really the problem as most ranged attacks on genestealers will come in the form of automatic fire, leading to an opposed test of sorts. The problem is that Hard Target skews that in the favour. Heavily while running.

But it's doable. Genestealers are only OP because less experienced players don't see the proper counter-strategy (shooting full-auto and meatshields fighting defensively) at first glance.

Alex

Opposed attack/defend tests are a bad idea as offense in this game is much easier to pump than defense. It creates an imbalance where the PCs take more hits. This is a problem when NPC damage stats are designed to bring PCs down in 304 hits on average, or fewer when special rules (Unnatural attributes, Tearing, Razor Sharp) come into play.

Actually it balances out well due to the fact the bad guys actually have to work a little harder to survive.

Also burst fire and full auto are easy to figure in.

Example

Heavy bolter marine opens up on genestealer.

He needs a 87 to hit rolls a 32 giving 5 success levels

Genestealer dodges needing an 80 rolls a 46 giving him 3 successes

Difference of 2.. 2 rounds hit.

It makes since the marine would adjust his fire on his target. Unless he is a lump on a log that moves like a slug.

if the fire rate is high enough, you'll find it hard to adjust fire on target before the burst is over, I guess.

Apart from that, it's really bad to make adversaries easier to kill in DW. In all missions I have GM'd, I had to work hard to challenge my players in combat. They have it easy enough already.

Alex

if the fire rate is high enough, you'll find it hard to adjust fire on target before the burst is over, I guess.

Apart from that, it's really bad to make adversaries easier to kill in DW. In all missions I have GM'd, I had to work hard to challenge my players in combat. They have it easy enough already.

Alex

I wholeheartedly second that. I wrote this up in some thread earlier, but I guess it's worth repeating: my players felt Parry and Dodge should be an Opposed test to have the crunch do justice to a perfect attack with multiple DoS, so I decided to indulge them and play-test it; as luck had it, against Genestealers. The combat took forever , as Genestealers are awfully hard to beat in WS and Ag, especially by Level 1 marines. To make work Dodge or Parry as opposed tests, you probably have to port some other 40K game system over, because this modification in itself is not working well in DW crunch, at least according to my experiences.

The fact is the skill of the attacker should play just as an important roll as the skill of the defender. Combat is fluid. It's not I look at your bullet flying at me and jump out of the way. It's I see you pointing your gun and attempt to move. A trained attacker will take that into account or attempt to when making the shot and adjust.

While that is true, I feel the experience of the attacker is better represented by choosing the appropriate combat action and gear (and having the skills and talents), and not, somehow, intrinsically "knowing" how the enemy will move or react. That is why we have actions such as Aim and Feint, and a kilometre-long list of specialist gear.

I think the combat process has to be taken as a whole rather than looking at each segment. Taken as an aggregate of all abilities talents etc including dodge and parry the better swordsman will generally win against the weaker one.

@musungu: I think you've found the problem with making Dodge and Parry an opposed check which arguably it should be, and that's playability.

If you were going to introduce opposed checks to combat you would probably want to rework the entire system. About 10 years ago I did a fair amount of sabre fighting. I was never amazingly good at it but I was in a class that had some excellent tutors (one was an Olympic Coach and another that worked on the Zorro movies amongst others as a fight choreograher)

They were, from my point of view, insanely good at sword fighting. I literally saw the Olympic Coach parry four blades one after each other in a second and then return four seperate blows to the assailants.

Now admittedly he was fencing 12-14 year olds and it was a bit of fun after the training session but the point is that with sword fighting, at least, it is rarely the case that 'I have a chance to hit, you have a chance to hit'

The process has a lot more to do with, for want of a better word, advantage. Do you have combat advantage, initative etc. If you do then you press the attack and if the skill level between the two combatants is high enough then it is likely one side simply won't get a look in at all.

In a system like this you would probably have an opposed WS check at the begining of each round and the winner makes a hit per degree of success. Problem is that a real fight isn't a formalised duel, you have to take into account what happens if your opponent kicks dirt in your face, annoys you through taunting, doesn't care that he is going to get hit etc.

Sorry this is all a bit rambley I guess my point is that the WH40K RPG combat system is just a playable approximation rather than a step by step process of what is actually happen. The parry and dodge rolls as it says in the book don't represent individual parry's pitting one persons skill agains the other but rather last ditch attempts by the party getting hit to avoid damage. Does this explanation hold up to closer scruitiney? Maybe not. But it still works reasonably well and I think it would be a mistake to change that part of the rules without changing other aspects of hand to hand.

For the record and on a tangent I think dodging bullits without unnatural agility is a bit daft and makes PCs way too lazair fare about seeking cover in gunfights. Or to put it another way if PCs can dodge bullits then I think the game should allow more shots to be fired per round.

...Problem is that a real fight isn't a formalised duel, you have to take into account what happens if your opponent kicks dirt in your face, annoys you through taunting, doesn't care that he is going to get hit etc...

Sorry this is all a bit rambley I guess my point is that the WH40K RPG combat system is just a playable approximation rather than a step by step process of what is actually happen. The parry and dodge rolls as it says in the book don't represent individual parry's pitting one persons skill agains the other but rather last ditch attempts by the party getting hit to avoid damage. Does this explanation hold up to closer scruitiney? Maybe not. But it still works reasonably well and I think it would be a mistake to change that part of the rules without changing other aspects of hand to hand.

For the record and on a tangent I think dodging bullits without unnatural agility is a bit daft and makes PCs way too lazair fare about seeking cover in gunfights. Or to put it another way if PCs can dodge bullits then I think the game should allow more shots to be fired per round.

It is actually a fair approximation. You know, I did a few years of fencing myself in grade school - that is how I was able to explain to the players how it works. I had beautifully executed attacks parried by the opponent if I was a bit too slow or too predictable, and the other didn't even had to be a better fencer than me. It's not a counterattack, it's just somehow ruining your opponent's plans. It's always easier to destroy than to plan and build. Not to mention that it's friggin' rare to block an attack with your own sword outside movies - even fencers rather just step aside, and if you have a shield - well, that's the whole point of shields. Or pauldrons, come to think of it. I wouldn't block a sharp thing with my own sharp thing, or it quickly stops being sharp.

Dodging bullets is a bit more complicated, and I think here the GM too has to get a bit more creative with the NPCs. If someone stands out in the open and starts blasting away at you, you probably have some small chance to jump aside, but shooters should do their thing smartly - try to get the characters caught in crossfire, or just shoot and move away when sniping.

I guess my point is that superior fighters show their superiority by choosing time, terrain, circumstances, weapons or (in our case) combat action better. A dice roll is the ultimate oversimplification, and I prefer pitting two combat actions against each other to pitting two dice rolls against each other.

Hey, look how filthy Genestealers provoke almost philosophical musings. Nice.

Dodging bullets is a bit more complicated, and I think here the GM too has to get a bit more creative with the NPCs. If someone stands out in the open and starts blasting away at you, you probably have some small chance to jump aside, but shooters should do their thing smartly - try to get the characters caught in crossfire, or just shoot and move away when sniping.

Yep. So far my PCs have basically just had to face nasty Zerg rushing Tyranids or insane but brutal orks. Can't wait till they start facing organised rebels!