Yes the lightsaber uses the lightsaber skill. A skill which has yet to be detailed except briefly and falls squarely under GM decree on its use. Therefore taking it in any way or using it with talents will all fall under the GM's purview.

The CRB talks about it on p.167 and under the melee weapons chart, 5-6, p. 161, under the skill column in the chart for light saber it lists lightsaber as the skill required.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

I'm not saying you should (I like having most of Star Wars devoid of Jedi and their ilk), but couldn't you get the skill through Well Rounded (Colonist:Politico/Scholar, Explorer:Archaeologist)?

This is plausible but I think I would require it be Well Rounded from only the Scholar or the Archaeologist, not the Politico or the Medic.

I realise I'm being contrary now, but Archaeologists can get this Talent for 5 points...

I think sane GMs would veto it unless it's a significant part of what that campaign was about.

I'm not saying you should (I like having most of Star Wars devoid of Jedi and their ilk), but couldn't you get the skill through Well Rounded (Colonist:Politico/Scholar, Explorer:Archaeologist)?

This is plausible but I think I would require it be Well Rounded from only the Scholar or the Archaeologist, not the Politico or the Medic.

I realise I'm being contrary now, but Archaeologists can get this Talent for 5 points...

I think sane GMs would veto it unless it's a significant part of what that campaign was about.

I don't think it would be considered a real choice since it isn't an official skill. It's not in the skill's chapter nor on the official character sheet. We only have a sidebar explaining how the Lightsaber skill would work if a GM intended to include it in his or her game.

Lightsaber is a 'real' skill just as Knowledge (Warfare) is a 'real' skill and can be taken by non-Age of Rebellion characters. I expect you'll see a similar sidebar for Lightsaber being open to non-Force and Destiny characters once that Beta is out too.

Because talents like Frenzied Attack and Feral Strength say they augment Brawl and Melee specifically and a light saber doesn't use a Brawl or Melee check, it uses a Light Saber skill check. It's the same as asking why can't you use Frenzied Attack with Ranged(H).

Good point, For some reason I managed to completely miss that despite it being already stated. My appogies.

But fair enough. I do generally agree that lightsabers won't see use in your average party unless it's part of a character concept. Though it may spuce things up a bit.

Lightsaber, and Knowledge (Warfare) for that matter, are not skills in EotE. Yes the games are compatible, but they are also they're own entities. So even though lightsaber will be a skill available in F&D doesn't automatically make it fodder for the Well Rounded talent or the human's ability to take a rank in ann-career skill.

I think there's a difference between Lightsaber and Knowledge: Warfare. Random street scum can learn about wars going on in their galaxy. Random street scum are much less likely to find training manuals on using a weapon belonging to a hokey illegal religion.

I think there's a difference between Lightsaber and Knowledge: Warfare. Random street scum can learn about wars going on in their galaxy. Random street scum are much less likely to find training manuals on using a weapon belonging to a hokey illegal religion.

Pretty much. Knowledge: Warfare is just a new specific skill to separate it from general Knowledge Education checks or whatever. Lightsaber is specifically stated - in the description for the weapon - that the skill will be in the game later, but it's not in the books now for a specific reason - because you're not meant to be trained in it. And that means you can't treat it like a non-career skill and just dump in 10XP to get the first rank in it, 15XP for second, and so on. It's specifically meant to be non-existent for EotE and AoR characters. And if the book states you're not supposed to put any XP into getting ranks for Lightsaber, then you're probably not supposed to randomly turn it into a career skill with and EotE/AoR talent.

Lightsaber is a 'real' skill just as Knowledge (Warfare) is a 'real' skill and can be taken by non-Age of Rebellion characters. I expect you'll see a similar sidebar for Lightsaber being open to non-Force and Destiny characters once that Beta is out too.

Until Force & Destiny is published, Lightsaber isn't a "real" skill. It's not listed in the Skills chapter of EotE, with the only two mentions of the skill being as a possible house-rule by the GM, and in the stat block of a single NPC.

Knowledge (Warfare) is a "real" skill since it's mentioned in the Skills chapter of Age of Rebellion (or at least was updated to be listed in that chapter). Once again, there's no mention of a Lightsaber skill in the Skills chapter, and in AoR Beta it is only mentioned twice; once as an optional skill in the description of the weapon itself (though with a bit less mechanical information that EotE had) and as a line item in the stat block of a single NPC (that also had to be updated to be included).

Obviously a number of GMs have taken the rulebooks' advice and created their own Lightsaber skill (with some even adding caveats that the difficulty is determined different than a standard Brawl or Melee attack check; typically by including one or two upgrades to the standard Average difficulty). But in terms of the RAW, it's not a "real" skill, any more than the species in the Unofficial Species Menagerie or the Force powers I cooked up for Ways of the Force are "real" in the context of the official material.

When dealing with rules questions, house-ruled material pretty much throws the RAW out the window. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a group out there that has deep-sixed all the official combat skills into two skills, those being Melee and Ranged. Such a house-rule makes this thread's entire conversation pointless as for that group since all melee weapons, from fists to vibro-axes to lightsabers, all fall under one combat skill; for that group, obviously a Marauder could use many of their skill-specific talents with lightsabers, since lightsabers fall under the one combat skill that they use. Alternatively, there could be a group that's gone the early Legend of the Five Rings route and made each weapon require a separate and unique skill, in which case the answer to the OP's question would probably be confusing as hell.

As such, when dealing with a rules question, it's best to stick with the RAW. And per the RAW, the Lightsaber skill doesn't exist as something that PCs can take. NPCs can have it, but as I noted in another thread, NPCs get to break the rules in terms of what they can and can't have.

I'm going to be running a game where a lightsaber can be used. I'm going to allow the FSE to be able to use it without any setbacks iff they have at least two ranks in a one of the knowledge skills (the FSE will pick and say why for the story) AND two ranks in melee because lightsaber. The FSE will be allowed to use a characteristic of her choice (excluding Intellect for reasons that make sense to me and because Intellect is already weighted heavy in the game) as ranking Lightsaber combat skill, for instance, Willpower. It also makes sense to me through the story that Lightsaber proficiency should not be more than the allotted force dice unless flipping a destiny point.

The FSE will be allowed to use a characteristic of her choice (excluding Intellect for reasons that make sense to me and because Intellect is already weighted heavy in the game) as ranking Lightsaber combat skill, for instance, Willpower.

That is pretty powerful especially depending on the FSEx's underlying Career/Spec(s). It allows them to potentially be even more single-attribute dependent than a normal melee character is.

I'm going to be running a game where a lightsaber can be used. I'm going to allow the FSE to be able to use it without any setbacks iff they have at least two ranks in a one of the knowledge skills (the FSE will pick and say why for the story) AND two ranks in melee because lightsaber. The FSE will be allowed to use a characteristic of her choice (excluding Intellect for reasons that make sense to me and because Intellect is already weighted heavy in the game) as ranking Lightsaber combat skill, for instance, Willpower. It also makes sense to me through the story that Lightsaber proficiency should not be more than the allotted force dice unless flipping a destiny point.

I don't have major issues specifically but given F&D is out here pretty quick it just seems like anyone starting out and investing too heavily in coming up with something for Lightsabers is likely just going to be doing a respec in a couple three months. For that matter taking anything too far off the rails now for the Force is probably going to lead to the same thing anyway. I guess if GMs have no issue with that it's not a big deal.

At this point, I can't understand the desire to complicate things beyond just adding in the Lightsaber skill for basic training with the weapon.

I don't see why a Maualder wouldn't get to use their talents on a lightsaber. Fundimentally it's the same as swinging any weapon, once you conpensate for the lightness of it. Infact it's probably superior once you get over the fact that strength means very little with a blade that can cut through nearly anything, so you can focus all your efforts on inflicting the most visious wounds possible, even with little formal training, that only helps you to take advantage of the more advanced applications, such as defensive fighting, blaster bolt deflection, that would likely be in the Force book. It also allows you to argue self harm if a dispair is rolled.

With respect, I've trained heavy weapons fighting in the SCA, and I've done fencing with a foil. Swinging an axe or a sword is nothing like swinging a flashlight that can cut off your arm or your leg, if you use the wrong form. The somatic sense of knowing exactly where something is -- just by the way it feels -- that's totally different with a flashlight versus a sword or an axe.

I'm not even convinced that using a light saber should be a Brawn-based skill. I'm thinking it should be a combat skill that is used at Engaged range, maybe based on Agility. And it should definitely be separate from all other melee skills.

How strong you are makes no difference whatsoever when swinging a light saber, although it could make a difference once engaged with an opponent that is also using a light saber -- much as Darth Vader did against Luke in ESB.

Edit: To clarify, I play a Wookiee Maurader with 5 Str, 3 ranks in melee, and I now have a pair of really nice Vibro-Axes with the "Mono-molecular Edge" and "Balanced Hilt" modifications. I have Feral Strength, Wookiee Rage, and various other melee-oriented talents. That's going to be pretty munchkin.

But I would hate to see what would happen to the game if I was allowed to just pick up a lightsaber and start swinging it instead.

Almost anything in the Ranged Heavy, explosive and other weapons, and vehicle weapons are your friends against melee happy marauders. Just saying.

As for whether a marauder could apply talents to lightsabers I am going with no as well.

Also the above list would be effective against marauding/rampaging Jedi as well. Episode 2 demonstrated this when Boba pratically blasted Obi-wan out of his boots or when Jango lit him (or was it Mace) with a flame projector.

Which leads me to the question of sonic weapons versus Jedi and if that will be addressed.

Edit: To clarify, I play a Wookiee Maurader with 5 Str, 3 ranks in melee, and I now have a pair of really nice Vibro-Axes with the "Mono-molecular Edge" and "Balanced Hilt" modifications. I have Feral Strength, Wookiee Rage, and various other melee-oriented talents. That's going to be pretty munchkin.

Why do you have two vibro-axes? Seeing as they are two-handed weapons, do you just keep one as a spare?

Edit: To clarify, I play a Wookiee Maurader with 5 Str, 3 ranks in melee, and I now have a pair of really nice Vibro-Axes with the "Mono-molecular Edge" and "Balanced Hilt" modifications. I have Feral Strength, Wookiee Rage, and various other melee-oriented talents. That's going to be pretty munchkin.

Why do you have two vibro-axes? Seeing as they are two-handed weapons, do you just keep one as a spare?

What HD said. You can't dual-wield those puppies, even if you're a Wookiee.

With respect, I've trained heavy weapons fighting in the SCA, and I've done fencing with a foil. Swinging an axe or a sword is nothing like swinging a flashlight that can cut off your arm or your leg, if you use the wrong form. The somatic sense of knowing exactly where something is -- just by the way it feels -- that's totally different with a flashlight versus a sword or an axe.

I'm not even convinced that using a light saber should be a Brawn-based skill. I'm thinking it should be a combat skill that is used at Engaged range, maybe based on Agility. And it should definitely be separate from all other melee skills.

Easy rules are more important than creating a perfect simulation. Especially when that simulation involves massless melee weapons.

Edit: To clarify, I play a Wookiee Maurader with 5 Str, 3 ranks in melee, and I now have a pair of really nice Vibro-Axes with the "Mono-molecular Edge" and "Balanced Hilt" modifications. I have Feral Strength, Wookiee Rage, and various other melee-oriented talents. That's going to be pretty munchkin.

Why do you have two vibro-axes? Seeing as they are two-handed weapons, do you just keep one as a spare?

It's called "Balanced Hilt", but in this particular case the in-game explanation is "Telescopic Shaft". The combat effects for accuracy and encumbrance reductions are the same, but the mechanism by which they are provided is different.

So, that two-handed weapon can now be adjusted so that it can be used one-handed -- if you're strong enough. I have yet to actually use them in combat, so I don't know what the differences for damage would be. Instead of Strength+3, my suspicion is that they will come down to Strength+2 -- just like a Vibro-Sword. But I'll be swinging a pair of them, and they will be Pierce+4.

Of course, what works in the game for my GM may not work in anyone else's game.

Easy rules are more important than creating a perfect simulation. Especially when that simulation involves massless melee weapons.

Fair enough, but in this case I submit that the end result is the same -- the Lightsaber skill doesn't exist in a form that is available to PCs in the CRB RAW.

Combat-wise, making it an Agility-based skill would not be any more "complex", because Agility is already a skill heavily used in combat, and anyone playing a Jedi isn't going to be using the CRB RAW anyway.

Almost anything in the Ranged Heavy, explosive and other weapons, and vehicle weapons are your friends against melee happy marauders. Just saying.

Yeah, we've got a Hired Gun/Heavy who is pretty good at that stuff, too. And it is a pretty effective mechanism -- until they can close to Engaged, at which point it becomes more of a challenge to deal with them if you don't have someone/something comparable. Grenades and other explosives are not viable melee combat weapons, and Ranged Heavy weapons tend to be less effective.

That's one of the reasons why my Wookiee is going to be looking for a Rocketpack/Jetpack or something similar in the near future -- he wants to close that distance faster.

If someone has Time to Go or Selective Detonation explosives are very effective at engaged range.

Easy rules are more important than creating a perfect simulation. Especially when that simulation involves massless melee weapons.

Fair enough, but in this case I submit that the end result is the same -- the Lightsaber skill doesn't exist in a form that is available to PCs in the CRB RAW.

Combat-wise, making it an Agility-based skill would not be any more "complex", because Agility is already a skill heavily used in combat, and anyone playing a Jedi isn't going to be using the CRB RAW anyway.

True, but that doesn't mean we can't infer what FFG will try and do. For instance, we can infer that gaining Lightsaber as a career skill will likely involve just grabbing a talent from some sort of career tree (similar to gaining Perception and Discipline as careers in the Force-Sensitive trees) - whether that's a universal specialization or a career specialization is something we have to wait and see on.

We can also guess that FFG will introduce specific characteristics to use when using the Lightsaber skill from

**SLIGHT SPOILERS IN THE NEXT LINE - SKIP IF YOU HAVE YET TO READ/PLAY JEWEL OF YAVIN**

a particular fight where a force-users has a talent that specifically designates the use of Agility.

So it's likely that there will be multiple talents to choose which characteristic you want to use when wielding a lightsaber, whether it's Brawn or Agility, possibly even Cunning or the other Characteristics.

And personally, I think Brawn should probably be the default characteristic once we get the full Lightsaber skill information in Force and Destiny. It just makes more sense that somebody with no real training in any of the particular fighting forms (or even somebody that's just plain angry - like Luke in RotJ) would just start swinging it around like a club. But once you start bringing finesse onto the table, then there's Agility to quickly maneuver and weave the lightsaber. And likewise, you could bring that line of reasoning to any method of wielding a lightsaber and how it could tie to a characteristic.

But something else to consider: you're using a lightsaber to try and cut through a thick and heavy blast door (like in Episode I). Agility ain't going to help a whole lot when it's just about pushing the lightsaber along to create a hole for you to go through as it slowly cuts through the dense metals.

Alright, the physics of lightsabers are up for debate since nothing like them exists. However, we can draw a lot of conclusions based on what we see in the movies.

Those of you thinking about them as "flashlights that cut" are dead wrong. Period, end of sentence, whatever you need to hear to make you understand. They are explicitly not photon beams like a laser, and function nothing like that.

Lightsabers clearly have mass. Heck, for all physicists know photons may have mass. We think they don't,but no one knows for sure. The hilt of a lightsaber (going by how the actors have handled them) are quite dense and have a fair amount of mass. This makes sense given that there is a high output power generator in there.

Here's what we know from the movies and Clone Wars cartoon.

• Lightsabers make a lot of heat when they cut things.
• Lightsabers can make physical contact (as much as anything can make physical contact) as they push on the magnetic field of pretty much everything.
• The more dense an object the more time and effort it took to cut through.

Being bigger and stronger gives you more leverage with your lightsaber just like it does with a sword (see M. Windu or D. Vader)

So brawn does matter. Being bigger and stronger matters.

If you need a justification for why a beam of hot stuff in a magnetic bottle needs to be pushed through the air, try this:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

-Newton's Third Law of Motion

When you cut matter with a lightsaber you superheat it causing it to resist the motion you just made. The faster you swing the lightsaber the more matter you cut and the more resistance you make. Matter includes gases like the air your Jedi is breathing. Essentially, the massive heat your lightsaber gives off is triggering little mini explosions all along its path that push back opposite the arc of the blade. Being bigger and stronger lets a Jedi or Sith resist these micro-explosions and swing even faster and with more force thus cutting his target more deeply.

On topic:

By RAW Lightsabers do not work with Melee talents, but should work with melee talents.

My guess is that there will be a fighting style in F&D that allows Melee talents to be used with a lightsaber. This fits the existing fluff as we clearly see Luke spazzing out (Furious Assault) on his dad at the mention of "Sister". Feral Strength might make light sabers do more damage, but not that much more. Why would the designers want to invalidate all the previous work they did by making all new talents?