Actually I figured you could use a 'set up type plate' but I also figured the argument would stretch to a lengthy one..

Honestly, it isn't a movement template and it is not used for plannimg your move at any point.. just setting the distance of your ships on your initial placement.. and has no effect on the game play what so ever... if someone pulled this idea out and used it at a game, I'd compliment them on their ingenuity and then start trying to figure out my own .. if I thought I needed it...

I agree the rules are there to help everyone.. but there is such a thing as taking them too literal.. this is a game, and fun is the most important thing... rules lawyers have always spoiled that, lighten up and don't look at the other player like they are set to cheat against you ..

That's funny, I think a lot of people who dislike playing fast and loose with the rules have felt like it's the loosey-goosey players, always trying to bend the rules another inch in the name of 'fun,' almost always to their own personal advantage, feel sort of the opposite.

I mean I'm not a crazy rule lawyer, but I've met plenty of players who take a mile if you give them an inch. You let this rule bend, and suddenly that rule is inconveniencing them. You let them check range once before they decide if they're taking a target lock, and suddenly they're checking range and fire arc at will throughout the game.

The rules giving the game some structure, and people wanting to follow them as closely as possible, is not a bad thing.

Possibly.. I have seen that as well, but all the people I have played against .. in this game.. are all friends or people I have shown it too, and I haven't had issues. We are all good people here and I think we all have good intentions.. plus.. what's good for the goose is good for the gander.. lol..

I'm not advocating taking unfair advantage in any sort of way, but I really have no problem with someone setting down a template they created and set their ships up.. if it takes too much time and delays a timed game, I might sugfest they find a new way, a faster way to utilize it..

I can see a template that you set down, set say.. 3 TIEs down, slide it back and shift it over and set 3 more TIEs down and set it aside... might be faster than that guy looking and setting down a ship at a time eyeballing its placement then shifting them after he has them all down..,

I'd have to see it in use.. but I'll be the last one to tell him he can't give it a try..

And I don't necessarily have a problem with someone using a set-up tool. Hell, you could argue that's what my custom range 1 and 2 rulers are, in part, since I use them for making sure my ships are within range 1 of the map and my asteroids are at least range 2 out. Obviously that's a bit different than some contraption designed to put a bunch of TIEs in a crazy formation, perfectly spaced all within range 1 of the map edge.

More than anything I'd just like to see them eventually just declare stuff like that legal or illegal either way and move on, dependent on their intent for the game.

I do think trying to measure moves and such during combat is bogus, though.

Yeah, not even sure why that came up... it's combat, why pick up a maneuver template.. unless it was just an offhand comment in their banter back and forth...

Personally, I don't care if someone wants to pick up a 2 bank and hold ot so they can figure where they are going.. just lets me know what they are doing.. and if it isn't a ruse then I can guesstimate my own moves... in a tournament I might think it was a move to stretch the time out, and might question their motives... but in games with my friends.. pshhh I don't care.. no time frame, and heck, we talk so much during games it's a wonder we finish any game in a timely fashion.. lol

Think player agreement is the best way to do things, my group sometimes introduce house rules upon agreement.

I view abusing the templates and measuring the same as someone just dropping an extra attack die in. The game has a structure; that structure provides a specific set of limited information for you to work with. Taking an extra measurement gives you information the game structure says you shouldn't have. To me it's no different thank peeking at an opponent's cards in poker.

I'm obviously tighter on this than some (but by no means all) players. That may have something to do with a background in minis games that were very restrictive on measuring, and very unforgiving to people trying to abuse it. But I honestly think it's because I have relatively bad eyes and almost no depth perception. To someone who's very good at eyeballing distances, measurement may seem like a throwaway thing that doesn't really deserve to be restricted. But for me, gauging maneuvers is very hard, and that difficulty is a core part of the game, so it needs to be respected. If I can live with it, no reason anyone else shouldn't.

Honestly, it's also because FFG is all over the map on what and when you can measure. No premeasuring unless it's a boost, barrel roll, or target lock. And those are only pseudo-consequence if you fail, and the limited version is more of a guideline than a rule, and leave an exploitable hole big enough to drive a truck through. Shouldn't use the movement templates unless you're moving, unless it's during setup, in which case you're not only able to use the movement templates but welcome to bring in a LEGO Mindstorms robot to handle your initial placement if you like. <shrug>

I'm not going to lie. I get what you're saying. In principle I agree with a lot of it...

BUT.

Now I kind of want a robot to set up all of my ships for me.

I can sympathize to an extent with your vision issues, recently I have had some hemorrhaging in one of mine, and can vouch for the depth perception issue. I get surgery on Wednesday to hopefully correct the problem.

I also agree that the rules are something to follow, but the consistency is not 100% from FFG.. and as I've mentioned I'm not a tourney player, yet, so I am by far less likely to have many issues with someone trying to figure out their movement.

Recently while teaching a couple teenagers the game, we broke out the templates for the sole reason that one of them wanted advise on a move.. we discussed it, measured it out and went from there.. and yes I know in that teaching mode we all probably don't have an issue, but it seems I'm probably the least to worry about it overall.. lol.. and that bit of help, really aided the kid in future moves and how he was able to get around obsticles, so it made him a better player.. which I am all for..

Think player agreement is the best way to do things, my group sometimes introduce house rules upon agreement.

I don't feel we are qualified to tell the designers they got it wrong.. we don't know their method of figuring out the ships and their abilities.. after seeing some posts about it, I have to say all I saw was someone looking to over power a ship they thought should be better.. and honestly, I think, to give themselves a win.. my ego is not so big that I will tell a designer he's wrong.. but I am willing to discuss differences of opinion, and find out why those decisions were made..

Sorry if that came off sounding mean..

Think player agreement is the best way to do things, my group sometimes introduce house rules upon agreement.

I'm not a fan of house rules, with games like this.. from the ones I have seen posted on these and a couple other forums, they are just ways to nerf ships that a few people aren't happy with, and want to see... in their minds, better or less powerful... when they really haven't given the ship a good play and test... house rules are where I see the most ... cheating.. in a game like this.

I don't feel we are qualified to tell the designers they got it wrong.. we don't know their method of figuring out the ships and their abilities.. after seeing some posts about it, I have to say all I saw was someone looking to over power a ship they thought should be better.. and honestly, I think, to give themselves a win.. my ego is not so big that I will tell a designer he's wrong.. but I am willing to discuss differences of opinion, and find out why those decisions were made..

Sorry if that came off sounding mean..

I think there is a difference between house rules to change the stats on a ship, and house rule on how to resolve a non-FAQ'd Rules dispute so it doesn't come up every week, or house rules on what is acceptable in the way of pre-measuring, I'm sure some players always play at their club with the Tournament Addendum in play.

Think player agreement is the best way to do things, my group sometimes introduce house rules upon agreement.

I'm not a fan of house rules, with games like this.. from the ones I have seen posted on these and a couple other forums, they are just ways to nerf ships that a few people aren't happy with, and want to see... in their minds, better or less powerful... when they really haven't given the ship a good play and test... house rules are where I see the most ... cheating.. in a game like this.

I don't feel we are qualified to tell the designers they got it wrong.. we don't know their method of figuring out the ships and their abilities.. after seeing some posts about it, I have to say all I saw was someone looking to over power a ship they thought should be better.. and honestly, I think, to give themselves a win.. my ego is not so big that I will tell a designer he's wrong.. but I am willing to discuss differences of opinion, and find out why those decisions were made..

Sorry if that came off sounding mean..

By house rules im not talking about changing the ships, more about situations that arise, like if you cant physically place your movement template because of a ship in the way,, we use the 1 move marker to mark where it is so we can place it back accuratly. Also we allow people to measure between ships during set up with player agreement. I have found that this makes for more sattisfying games as the formation flying is easier. I really think that it doesnt matter because it doesnt really affect your opponent in any way, or the rules. in fact once you have played the game a few times you get used to the distances anyway and dont need to use them.

Perhaps the single greatest advantage of having a template for setup is the fact that you could place your ships very rapidly. In a tournament setting, I know I appreciate it when my opponent can place fairly quickly so we get started with a minimum of delay.

Perhaps the single greatest advantage of having a template for setup is the fact that you could place your ships very rapidly. In a tournament setting, I know I appreciate it when my opponent can place fairly quickly so we get started with a minimum of delay.

This is a very good point. My one gripe with playing the game is that it takes so long to get everything set up and actually start playing (yes, I know other miniatures games are even longer). If my opponent had a template to help them set up their TIE swarm quickly so that they didn't spend a lot of time carefully placing each individual TIE I certainly wouldn't object.

Here is the Starting Template I've made to set up the Star formation with perfect spacing. This formation will allow you to move all ships on the same turn and bank without bumping.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927124/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

This is what the formation looks like after the first move is complete.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927125/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

Which situation is worse?

1. You run into someone playing a TIE swarm. They spend a LOT of time messing around getting their ships in just the right position using every possible visual clue (maybe even using a line/thread count) to position every ship exactly where desired. Lets say set up time is five minutes.

2. You run into someone playing a TIE swarm. They have some kind of template they set down on the board and then just start dropping their ships into the appropriate spots. Their setup time is less than 30 seconds.

If you look at those pics of a Starting template I've made you'll see what this whole thread was about. James Kniffen confirmed that these types of starting templates are ok to use and are within the rules to do so ( even in Tournament play). I've timed myself in setting the template down with the 4 ships and removing the template takes 9 seconds. This example is fairly simple in design and this formation although difficult can be eye balled to set up. this takes me roughly a minute to do. so we are not talking a lot of time either way. As I explore more and more complex set ups with the use of templates to assist this time could go up but not on the template side.

Here is the Starting Template I've made to set up the Star formation with perfect spacing. This formation will allow you to move all ships on the same turn and bank without bumping.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927124/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

This is what the formation looks like after the first move is complete.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927125/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

Uh, your images are "Pending Approval."

If you know a better way to post the pics I'll put them up embedded in the post

Here is the Starting Template I've made to set up the Star formation with perfect spacing. This formation will allow you to move all ships on the same turn and bank without bumping.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927124/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

This is what the formation looks like after the first move is complete.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927125/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

Uh, your images are "Pending Approval."

The links should work now. I got a message from BBG that the pictures are approved.

James Kniffen confirmed that these types of starting templates are ok to use and are within the rules to do so ( even in Tournament play).

I've thought about creating such starting templates but wondered about the legality of using them. Is there a documented source of this confirmation from James?

This ruling is not covered in the rule book or the FAQ. The only confirmation I have is the email sent to me by James. I'll be happy to forward it to anyone who wants it.

Here is the Starting Template I've made to set up the Star formation with perfect spacing. This formation will allow you to move all ships on the same turn and bank without bumping.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927124/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

This is what the formation looks like after the first move is complete.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1927125/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

Uh, your images are "Pending Approval."

The links should work now. I got a message from BBG that the pictures are approved.

Nice template now that I can see it. Definitely an example showing a slightly more complex starting formation that moves into a very reasonable formation a turn in. Almost wish I could figure out how to print one of those out.

I think a starting template would be fine if you aren't taking a crazy amount of time, in regards to competitive play. That's the point of them though. You get the formation you want very quickly and accurately.

Some could argue it isn't an aid provided by the game, so you are introducing an outside element to have an advantage that your opponent doesn't have, but since it hopefully uses the same dimensions of the maneuver templates and could be achieved with the boxed materials...why not.

Odd situation. If they're fine with it, then they're fine with it. I would personally prefer someone spend less time and let them use some custom template.

Ok, here's how to setup the formation just to see how it flies around. Keep in mind the template is used so you can fit all 4 ships with range one for set up. That is why the one ship turns into the formation from the template. First step is draw a cross on a sheet of paper. Next place a quater down on the center of the cross, this gives about the right space between the ships. The front left ship and the rear right ship align on the center vertical line not over lapping the quater. The front left ship and rear right ship align on the center horizontal line, again not over lapping the quarter. This is superior to a straight box as it turns and banks the edges will not catch each other causing the loss of actions.