So and issue came up after a game I played and my opponent was upset with some of the things I was doing. I'm new to the XWing, and miniature games, so I want to check myself and make sure I'm not being a jackass. I don't want to be a jackass.

During the Planning phase, while we were selecting movements, I was moving the movement templates on my side of the table, no where near the map, to give me a reference for where my ships would end up. Is this allowed? This is just the templates, nothing else. Laying them on the table and turning them at different angles, off the map by my cards. The rules say:

By not "Testing" your maneuver, you're not allowed to put the template at your ship.
Messing about with the templates away from the field of play can help you plan your maneuver, and is allowed (to my knowledge).
Be careful with it, though, as it may telegraph your thinking process to your opponent. Consider bluffing.

That's the obvious cost of doing what I'm asking about. If my opponent sees me looking at a 3 turn and a 2 turn, he knows what I'm doing. I'm okay with that if I'm playing with the templates, that's the tactical disadvantage of doing it. I doubt it could be legal if I tried to do it in secret. I'm trying to stay as open as I can about it, but I certainly can't touch the map with the templates, so I kinda have to do it on my side.

So then am I allowed to do whatever I want with them on my side of the board, as long as they don't touch the map or come near my ships?

So then am I allowed to do whatever I want with them on my side of the board, as long as they don't touch the map or come near my ships?

Eeyup

That's the obvious cost of doing what I'm asking about. If my opponent sees me looking at a 3 turn and a 2 turn, he knows what I'm doing. I'm okay with that if I'm playing with the templates, that's the tactical disadvantage of doing it.

Like I said: Bluff. Look at the 3 turn, and also look at your Koiogran template and a 1 bank in the opposite direction. Also, learn how to judge the 2 turn off of the 1 and 3, and so on and so forth, and just be confusing as hell.

After figuring out what maneuver you want to do, look at a few more decoys, and "Change" your dial a few times (Making sure you change it back to the one you actually WANT at the end).

...Why yes, I like playing Rogues, why do you ask?

If your brand new to the game and your opponent has played before I see nothing wrong letting you play with your templates. As long as your not measuring the template against the ship.

If your friend has played several times then he has an advantage so he cant claim it gives you one, at best it makes it even

Another thing to do is to hold the slit of your dial at the firing arc of the ship in question, and rotate the maneuvers into the slit (rather than the other way around). It helps you from getting screwed up, and is hidden from your opponent.

I don't want to get into bad habits that I have to break. Even if the opponent has more experience than me I don't want to break the rules as some kind of handicap.

You may want to avoid "lining up" your template with the board when you do your figuring. I mean it may not be measuring "one the board" but if I'm messing around along the edge with the templine in line with my ship at at about that angle... I think you see where I'm going with that.

I guess I'm wondering when someone is going to come along with a visual guide for templates. You know, something you look through and can see a "virtual" template laid out even if there is nothing actually on the board.

I lay out my templates along the edge of the board at the beginning of the game. And then, after each movement phase, I put them back in the same laid out locations to:

A) Satisfy my OCD

B) Keep everything laid out and visible to me so that I can use them to judge my moves.

Note that I don't touch my templates, but I look at them on the edge a lot while planning.

Estimating by looking at the templates that are placed beside the game mat does not constitute cheating.

If you were to overlay the template on the map near your ship, or overtop but within the field of view of your ship, or in any way that estimating becomes more like plotting then that would be a no no.

I lay out my templates along the edge of the board at the beginning of the game. And then, after each movement phase, I put them back in the same laid out locations to:

A) Satisfy my OCD

B) Keep everything laid out and visible to me so that I can use them to judge my moves.

Note that I don't touch my templates, but I look at them on the edge a lot while planning.

Lol, this is what we try to do (that is, nice and organized). However, most times the templates end up in a pile on the edges of the gameplay area and it becomes even harder to guesstimate the right manuevers. I guess we could pick them up and realign them along the sides before we begin setting dials, but we usually don't notice the jumble until we've started setting dials Then it's hands off, and a mumbled "dammit..."

...because we're jumbled in the middle of the board and we haven't played near enough to know if a 2 or 3 bank (or turn) or a straight or a k-turn will be enough to clear the mess and we forgot that that **** TIE has a lower PS then we do and we crash and lose our action for the turn but hopefully someone will end up in our arc and we can still get a shot off but nooo, the Shuttle and Firespray pepper you to death and then you're down even more ships in the epic battle of good versus evil and all because the templates were jumbled on the side of the gameplay area and the visual mumbo-jumbo isnt enough to figure out where a particular movement will end me up.

I love this game!

It goes against the spirit of the game, 100%.

The rules may allow it in a limited way, but it's terribe game manners. More of a loophole.

To be honest, people should interpret the rules that you aren't interacting with the movement templates unless they are in use. You use the combat range template when determining attacks and movement when flipping your dial. Anything else is scrapping the cheese from a Breakfast MacMuffin wrapper.

Eye ball it all you want, but if you are moving around templates to get a better idea, again, terrible behaviour.

I don't think it goes against the spirit of the game. if you are just picking up and looking at the template to refrese your memory on how far it might possibly move a ship or the angle change without comparing it to the stat of the board I would consider that perfectly fine as it is knowledge that an experienced player will already have in their head.

That is more of an excuse to interact with the movement templates when they aren't in use.

Learn by playing. Stare at them for hours before bed, but if you are using the templates to gauge whether you want to make that maneuver, bad form.

People have found a technical loophole and will run it into the ground.

The rules are specific when a template is to be used. If game time is running and you aren't supposed to be using a template, you should just let it be.

It's like playing 40k when you couldn't measure before attacking. Move your units, but stretch out the measuring tape to 30 inches so you have a better idea of what your troops can hit even though all your units can only move 6'.. It's sly and totally stinks of BS.

"Oh, I'm just stretching out the measuring tape. You know, because the rules don't say that I can't fiddle with it."

To me, "estimating their ships movements in their heads" means just that - no touchy/fiddly things. Once you actually touch and/or move the templates, it is no longer "in your head" - it has entered the physical world. "Players cannot use maneuver templates" - in my mind (and the group I play with) if you're picking them up and moving them around, no matter the location, you're "using" them. Like those above, I try to keep the templates organized near the playfield, but often find that they are in a jumble. The most I will do is try to line them up in an orderly fashion, but I NEVER play around with the positions to try to figure out movements. And I don't know anybody who does.

I have no qualms if my opponent looks at the movement templates or pics them up as long as they go no where near the board. Afterall some people are better judges of distance or have learnt sneaky little cheats anyways. So why should someone new or who is a terrible judge at distance be handicapped just because he cant use a reminder?

40k was mentioned earlier and ive seen it countless times. The leaning against the table with your forearm to get an idea for range or knowing that X building is Y high and using it as a guide. I was so happy they took away the rule about guess range weapons. My friend could drop a template on a lone guardsmen at 130 inches!

Of course I have been teaching myself to better judge the distance for each template so I don't need to reference them and just learning from each wrong manoeuvre i do.

Good discussion. Differing opinions though. it sounds like it may be bad manners, but not outside the rules.

Does anyone from FFG has anything to say on the issue?

If it's considered outside the spirit do the game, or bad manners, I'd rather not do it. I'd rather lose than have someone be upset that I won because they feel I stetched the rules, or did something shady.

I would like to hear from FFG to get their take on the behavior though.

I have no qualms if my opponent looks at the movement templates or pics them up as long as they go no where near the board. Afterall some people are better judges of distance or have learnt sneaky little cheats anyways. So why should someone new or who is a terrible judge at distance be handicapped just because he cant use a reminder?

40k was mentioned earlier and ive seen it countless times. The leaning against the table with your forearm to get an idea for range or knowing that X building is Y high and using it as a guide. I was so happy they took away the rule about guess range weapons. My friend could drop a template on a lone guardsmen at 130 inches!

Of course I have been teaching myself to better judge the distance for each template so I don't need to reference them and just learning from each wrong manoeuvre i do.

Because they'll rely on doing it every time instead of adapting and learning the game the way it should be played. People will learn faster failing than trying to sly the templates as a back scratcher for their moves. Slows the game down as well.

Rules state you interact with the templates when you've revealed your dial and move. Anything else is purely at the mercy of your opponent and will create bad playing habits if allowed. I'm sure some people don't like the rule in Chess where if you remove your finger from a piece moved, but haven't passed your turn, you can't interact with it again. Without it, you have people bumbling back and forth with confusing back steps, slowing the game down and opening up the possibility for....you got it...cheating. I wouldn't trust someone fiddling with the templates in a tournament environment. I care a lot less in pick up games.

The only instance you are allowed to pre measure with movement is the barrel roll, as you aren't allowed to overlap another ship or obstacle. If you would, you don't lose your action.

If someone can show in the rules where you can even interact with the templates outside of using them, by all means, it's a loophole. Although the rulebook is small, the way it's worded carries the weight of the discussion and you only interact with them when carrying out the appropriate action.

For firing and target locks it says you determine whether it's possible. Grab the range ruler and measure away. No such liberty is reserved for movement as the core of the game is guessing and personal judgement.

So are we not allowed to adjust the templates if they become disorganized during the game? I'm sorry but if the template isn't going anywhere near the board it can't count as measuring.

Maybe I just have my hackles up because I have a clinical cognitive disability that negatively impacts my spatial awareness but "you can't hold it in your hand far from any ships" seems absurdly picky and strict.It's not as though you are placeing the template down and actually measuring anything. The "hands off means no takebacks" rule in chess is fair since it is the indicator that you are locking in the move. They are completely separate things.

So are we not allowed to adjust the templates if they become disorganized during the game?

I like keeping my area organized, nay, it is a compulsion to do so, but I never touch my templates when considering movement of any sort. When a template or two are out of place I will reorganized them, but not when I'm doing movement.

Seems the Penguin is taking things out of context to justify undisciplined play styles.

And no, it isn't strict when people are trying to lawyer the rules so they can get an edge when it comes to judging movement. The rules are pretty clear.

Reveal your dial, retrieve the proper maneuver template. Put it back. Whimsical playing with the templates in a game where your judgement on strategy is the point of the game and NOT about "gaming the game", trying to loophole maneuver template advantages out of phase.

Read the rules on when items are used and not used. What items can be premeasured and which ones go back to the pile. Anything else is shifty or as I said, at the mercy and grace of your opponent. It also isn't picky. It helps keep everyone on the same playing field...you know...the "fair" playing field.

Rules clearly state you can't use maneuver templates to "test" where your ships will move. Clearly people are trying to "test", even if it's standing 5ft away with one eye closed or squinting across the room while holding the template.

Estimate ships movements in your head.....OBVIOUSLY without the templates.

Arthur Volts please read people's full post his not taking anything out of context to justify a undisciplined play style, when someone is learning or has a disability id had hoped we all would have been supportive and made some allowances rather than trying to force every rule to be played to its extreme.

I play the game for fun even when im in a tournament, id rather make a slight allowance and have everyone playing than force such strict obedience and have only a handful of players.

I also stated that for fun and in competitive play are different and that as always, you're at the mercy of your opponent if you want to fiddle with templates.

Have training games where you're allowed to pre measure so you get a feel for the game. I prefer to learn off the seat of my pants. It isn't for everyone.

It's not obedience to some high standard, but the rules of fair play given in the few pages they gave us, to communicate the spirit of their "guessing" system. So people who have never met can sit down and play, knowing full well what to expect from their opponent.

Let people interact and measure with templates all you want, but if someone is asking "how it is", well, the words are there. I'm not spinning them out of control to suit a personal agenda.


I stand by my undisciplined play style comment. It may sound draconian, but that isn't it's intent. Getting into a routine of how a game is played and how you interact with your opponent is essential if you take the game "serious" in any manner.


Allowances are always a luxury and always given when needed. When people are trying to find loopholes to somehow use templates to assist their guessing, it's hard not to bring it back to the rules. To clarify.