R7-T1 and Dutch Vander

By dvorm, in X-Wing Rules Questions

How exactly does R7-T1 work? I think that all of the following statements are true. Please correct me if I am wrong:

a) You do not have to acquire a target lock. Boost without target lock is fine.

b) You need to be within range 1-2 of the enemy to get boost.

c) You do not need to boost, a simple target lock is fine.

d) You can acquire a target lock and boost which is like getting two actions for one.

e) You do not need to acquire a target lock or boost. Choosing an enemy ship at range 1-2 constitutes a legal action.

f) The only way the action can fail is if there is no enemy ship within range 1 or 2.

Now place R7-T1 with Dutch Vander.

Halfway through resolving R7-T1 Dutch's ability activates. At this point two things need to be done: A buddy in range acquires a target lock and Dutch may boost. In which order do these happen? Boost first or last?

Edited by dvor

The only piece that was missing was the requirement to be within the arc of fire of your enemy to do the TL and Boost.

A player gets to resolve two actions that occur at the same time in the order of his choosing. You could TL with Dutch and pass off a TL, and then Boost. Or you could TL, boost and pass off a TL.

I don't think that the second option of TL, boost, pass TL would work as the passing of the TL occurs after you have taken the TL. That is what has triggered Dutch's pilot ability. If you wait and try to pass off the TL after the boost, that would be during a second action and the opportunity to pass off a TL from his pilot ability has been passed by.

With Dutch and R7-T1 it would be TL ( and then pass off free TL from pilot ability) and then boost.

  1. Check if an enemy is a valid target-lock subject at Range 1-2. If not, cancel the action, and choose a different one.
  2. Acquire a target lock on that enemy
  3. As you have acquired a target lock, target Ally at Range 1-2 may perform a free Target Lock action
  4. You may check if you may perform a boost action (Does not require Boost on your action bar, but you cannot Boost into a collision.)
  5. If you can boost, you may do so.

Astromechs continue to be O.P.

because Dutch's ability has a proximity requirement, when you would take an action, you choose Dutch's target lock target, immediately choose his wingman's target lock target, and then boost, because you could conceivably boost out if range of a ship to pass a lock to, or the adverse, into range of another, at which time it is too late to pass a lock.

I believe you are correct on all counts, Dvor.

The first statement appears to be only that you choose an enemy ship within range 1 or 2. It seems clear to me that if no enemy ships are within that range, then you cannot perform the action, because there is no provision made for failing this requirement.

The second statement is that IF you are within the firing arc of the chosen enemy ship, then you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Again, no questions about how to get a target lock. However, the sentence ends here.

The third statement is that you may then perform a free boost action. This is a separate statement from the second, in no way related to it.

It appears that you have 3 separate things going on.

1 - Choose a target enemy ship at range 1 or 2. This is phrased as a requirement, there is no "may" or "if" here.

2 - If you are within that ships firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on it. Conditional, so it is possible to perform R7-T1's special action even if you are NOT within the firing arc of an enemy ship, assuming you are able to satisfy the requirement in part 1 above.

3 - You may perform a free boost action. There is no proviso here that would prevent your boost action in the event that the circumstances for part 2 (being in firing arc) were not satisfied.

I think though - when two abilities would occur at the same time, you may choose which to resolve first - which suggests that dutch could use the droids action, target lock, boost and then give a target lock to someone.

I believe you are correct on all counts, Dvor.

The first statement appears to be only that you choose an enemy ship within range 1 or 2. It seems clear to me that if no enemy ships are within that range, then you cannot perform the action, because there is no provision made for failing this requirement.

The second statement is that IF you are within the firing arc of the chosen enemy ship, then you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Again, no questions about how to get a target lock. However, the sentence ends here.

The third statement is that you may then perform a free boost action. This is a separate statement from the second, in no way related to it.

It appears that you have 3 separate things going on.

1 - Choose a target enemy ship at range 1 or 2. This is phrased as a requirement, there is no "may" or "if" here.

2 - If you are within that ships firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on it. Conditional, so it is possible to perform R7-T1's special action even if you are NOT within the firing arc of an enemy ship, assuming you are able to satisfy the requirement in part 1 above.

3 - You may perform a free boost action. There is no proviso here that would prevent your boost action in the event that the circumstances for part 2 (being in firing arc) were not satisfied.

I think the sentences are separated the way they are for grammar's sake.

If they were independent effects, there would likely be a paragraph break (with spacing) between them.

I think though - when two abilities would occur at the same time, you may choose which to resolve first - which suggests that dutch could use the droids action, target lock, boost and then give a target lock to someone.

This is true, except that Fantasy Flight consistently requires you to perform all actions/effects on a single card before moving to the next one. In this case, you are "given" the Free boost as part of R7s effect. At that point, it seems likely that you would be able to choose whether the free boost is resolved before or after Dutch's free target lock. I am not sure that it matters in this specific instance, since R7's effect gives you a free boost action rather than simply "boosting" you. If it were the latter, for example if it said "perform a boost", then I suspect you would be required to resolve it immediately.

So, same net effect. You can use the droid action, target lock, boost and then give a target lock. Or, target lock, give target lock, and then boost. Whichever you prefer.

Edited by KineticOperator

I disagree.

Dutch's target lock skill occurs as he takes the lock. Not later. You must give the lock immediately.

I agree with Bilisknir.

Dutch gains a lock from whatever source and immediately allows another ship to acquire a lock. You can't acquire the lock with Dutch, then boost with R7, then pass the lock. Dutch's original talent governs when the lock is passed.

Edited by Englishpete

I'm still a believer in immediately, so I think Dutch's target lock would be passed first.

There could be one interesting monkey wrench in R7-T1 generally... With Expert Handling, if you don't do the barrel roll, you don't get to remove the target lock. One follows the other.

Does the same apply here? Both use "then", which implies order, but both parts of R7-T1 are optional while Expert Handling's barrel roll is not. Is having the potential to take the lock good enough, even if you choose not to? What if it's not possible to take the lock on the target (such as it being the only ship in range, and you already have a lock on it)?

<shrug> There are enough "may"s in there that I'm inclined towards the pieces being independent, but it'll probably deserve a clarification.

I'm still a believer in immediately, so I think Dutch's target lock would be passed first.

There could be one interesting monkey wrench in R7-T1 generally... With Expert Handling, if you don't do the barrel roll, you don't get to remove the target lock. One follows the other.

Does the same apply here? Both use "then", which implies order, but both parts of R7-T1 are optional while Expert Handling's barrel roll is not. Is having the potential to take the lock good enough, even if you choose not to? What if it's not possible to take the lock on the target (such as it being the only ship in range, and you already have a lock on it)?

<shrug> There are enough "may"s in there that I'm inclined towards the pieces being independent, but it'll probably deserve a clarification.

I'm pretty sure (in basic programming terms), it's

"IF you are in R1-2 of Enemy, you MAY acquire a TL

IF you have acquired a TL this way, you MAY boost".

I'm still a believer in immediately, so I think Dutch's target lock would be passed first.

There could be one interesting monkey wrench in R7-T1 generally... With Expert Handling, if you don't do the barrel roll, you don't get to remove the target lock. One follows the other.

Does the same apply here? Both use "then", which implies order, but both parts of R7-T1 are optional while Expert Handling's barrel roll is not. Is having the potential to take the lock good enough, even if you choose not to? What if it's not possible to take the lock on the target (such as it being the only ship in range, and you already have a lock on it)?

<shrug> There are enough "may"s in there that I'm inclined towards the pieces being independent, but it'll probably deserve a clarification.

I suppose the difference is that Expert Handling makes no provision for failure. In that way it is like the first part of R7-T1, where you are simply required to nominate a ship within range 1-2. If you cannot do the obligatory portion(s) of an action, then you cannot perform it at all. In the case of Expert Handling, if you cannot perform the barrel roll you cannot perform Expert Handling at all. Certainly nobody seems to doubt that if no enemy ships are within 2 then R7T1 cannot be used at all.

Since there is a proviso for the Target Lock, and a "may" for the Boost, I am inclined to believe that neither of those pieces are mandatory for the entire thing to go off. As for performing the bonus Target Lock "immediately", well that takes us all the way back to the whole what does immediately thing mean. It will be enough for me if and when they get around to clarifying this particular card, I have no interest into entering that debate again.

Having said that, I would be inclined to do it the way you suggest if for no other reason than it "feels" like that is the way it is supposed to be done.

Ugh yeah all they would have had to do is word it something like " if you do, perform a free boost action" and it would have clearly tied the two together, if that was their intent.

It kind of feels like they should be tied together, but it's definitely not clear. It certainly sounds like you could take the target lock and then not boost. So with the wording not being more concise it's hard to make a sound argument that you couldn't, then, skip the target lock but boost anyway, if you were so inclined.