Various Siegfried support:

Atoning for Wicked Deeds
[Good] F Destroy this foundation: Choose an [Evil] non-character card in your opponent's staging area and turn it face down. That card is considered a foundation with a blank text box.

No Forgiveness!
E: If your attack deals damage, choose 1 foundation or asset in your opponent's staging area and turn it face down. That card is now considered to be a foundation with a blank text box.

Regretful Existence
After this foundation is destroyed due to your opponent's card effect, choose 1 foundation or asset in your opponent's staging area and turn it face down. That card is considered to be a foundation with a blank text box.

1. Do the face down foundations retain their stats (control, difficulty, block modifiers, symbols, name), or do they lose all identity once they go face-down?

2. Player A has 1 Blinding Rage in play, and 2 foundations that are currently face-down and blank (one is King of Fighters 2006, the other is Holding Ground). If Player B Forms with Olcadan's Mentoring, and chooses to destroy a blank foundation (Holding Ground)...what happens? Does Blinding Rage attempt to search for blank foundations in the deck, or does it attempt to search for Holding Ground?

3. Can a player look at these face down foundations (in other words, are they public knowledge)?

4. Is it safe to assume that any copies of Lynette's Shop revert back to being a asset if the card they are copying are turned face down?

MegaGeese said:

1. i would say no, its the back of a card with no stats, just a foundation with a blank text box

2. since the foundation that was destroyed is a nameless foundation you search your deck for a nameless foundation..........

3. im pretty sure there is a part in the current rules that says you cant look at face down cards.

4. lynettes is still targetting that foundation and would become a blank foundation?????? only one im not sure about

1. No stats. Totally blank. It's just "a foundation".

2. An interesting conundrum, but because Blinding Rage triggers after the cards have already gone to the discard pile, it'll look at what they are after the fact and resolve accordingly. At least, that's how I see it.

3. Nope, they're facedown and they're staying that way.

4. The card didn't leave play so Lynette's continues to be what it copied.

So Lynette's becomes a blank foundation as well, then, or it retains the knowledge of being BRT, Red Lotus, Inhuman Perception, etc (whatever the case may be)?

When did the staging area cease to be public knowledge? Even if the cards are flipped I fail to see how a public knowledge zone ceases to be public knowledge.

If I flip my removed from game pile up side down does it cease to be a public zone?

To Mega: Lynette's copies the foundation immediately upon coming into play and would still have the text even if the original is flipped Lynette's doesn't have to check the text of the foundation each turn it checks once and then knows. I see it like making a photocopy. If you cover up the original you still have the copy. (Granted this totally falls apart with the idea that if you destroy the original the copy is destroyed, but you could think of it like destroying files at Enron. Once one is destroyed, they all must be!)

To BlindProphet: The flipped card was flipped by a game mechanic changing the card from public to private. You flipping your removed from the game pile would not be a game mechanic and the pile would remain public.

BlindProphet said:

the card thats in the zone is the back side of a card.....

Except its not flipping it from public to private -at all-. Its in a PUBLIC ZONE. The card is in a public zone. Not the side of the card, the entire card. If I as a player wanted to look at the backs of every card in your discard pile instead of the fronts I am able to because it is information in a public zone that everyone has access to.

If you guys can show me where in the rules it says that a upside down card in a public zone is no longer considered public information please do. But there is nothing implied, or specificaly stated that does so.

BlindProphet said:

You can't look at facedown cards in your card pool, which is a "public zone".

there is a specific rules excerp for each of the zones except the staging area. in every zone face down cards cannot be looked at and only face up cards may

Point out in the rules where it says you can not look at face down cards in your card pool? I just checked. There is no such statement in the current TR. You can't look at your momentum, thats specifically stated. Can't look through your deck, thats specifically stated. Nothing -AT ALL- about you can't look at face down cards in your card pool or staging area.

Since you're going to ask "well why are they face down then" there are two reasons. First multiple coppies are face down because they become another card and the easiest way not to complicate/confuse things. Other time cards are added face down to your card pool without any stats, they are treated as spacers with no symbols, only adding to progressive difficulty. But again theres nothing in the ules, even remotely that says you can't look at them. In fact you -need- to look at them should your card pool get jarred on accident as you're not allowed to re-arange your card pool or for that matter your discard pile unless a card effect directs you to.

so your basically asking that they re re re re re re re re re revise the new rules so they are delayed again?

He's just complaining to be complaining..like always. It's been ruled a thousand times about face down cards..he just wants it in the TR. I'm sure it'll be revised in the new TR, but until then..let the moaning continue.

for all its worth, blind profit does in fact hit on some very important sportsmanship issues with facedown cards in a public, losley organized area. I have a post where I'm awaiting some answers now, but in any event I think being explicit on this topic would not be a bad thing rules wise.

I find it odd that these cards, which aren't leaving play, just changing what they are, aren't considered to have left play for, yet other cards that leave play to a much lesser extent (eg copy until end of turn) are considered to have left play for some card effects.

Weird. Can we have the new rules soon please? Maybe that will make this all make sense.

OK ok ok..... let me just get this straight..... we are ruling both that if a card is copied by lynett's and then flipped faced down the copy stays and that face down cards are not allowed to be looked at......

my thoughts on this are that Lynette's says its a copy untill the original "leaves play" and becoming a blank foundation is the same as leaving play. There is no longer a card named "What's-its-name" for lynett's to target therefore it must have left play. Secondly if the lynett's ruling stays then we should be able to look at the underside of flipped foundations due to the fact that now that its face down we cannot prove that the face down card is the same card. without proof of such information the game cannot determine when lynette's becomes blank again. If i copy a BRT and then flip two of them face down and destroy one of the face downs how can you prove that i did or did not destroy the one i copied.

Game just got kicked up a level. Careful rulings need to be made.

Okay so if we cant look at the facedown cards we can mark them right? ie. with a dice?

Ziephnir said:

No....I'm not asking anyone to re-revise the rules. Currently there's no need to. According to the TR as we currently have (1.9), there are no rules that say you can no look at face down cards in your card pool and your staging area. They also currently also state that you can't re-arange your card pool unless a effect tells you you can. So if your card pool gets jumbled for whatever reason, and you had 4 face down cards in it, by the rules you have to put them back in exactly the same order that they were before.

All I'm asking is that we don't make a ruling that has NO BASIS in the rules currently. No ones quoted rules yet that state you can't look at face down cards in your card pool or staging area. The reason? Because there are none.

BlindProphet said:

Say you can look at them. The game state is still unaware of what they are. each game state is a "snapshot" independant of others. For example, say i have zero cards in hand. I play Victor's E: and add Red Lotus of the Sun to my hand. I now have 1 card in hand. Obviously it is red lotus. Well, its obvious to you and me, but not to the game state. To the game state i have an unknown card in my hand.

Lets say you can look at face down cards in your staging area. As soon as they are flipped back over, the game "forgets" what they were.

Smazzurco said:

Which is fine. The game doesn't remember whats on the other side of the card, but I should be able to look at the other side of that card. I should be able to pick exactly which flipped foundation or asset I want to use with billiard player. What the game sees those cards as currently is neither here nor there and not at all related to the point of being able to do something allowed by the rules as written.

BlindProphet said:

to save me having to read thru tons of text, did a judge rule that you cannot look at them before choosing which one is going to billard player?

they are probably waiting on word from ffg staff on this one

While that may be true, Lynettes was ruled to remember what the card it copied was, even though the proposed gamestate you just illustrated does not. If a card can remember this information then it has to be identifyable.

Since facedown cards have no name or identifing attributes, can you even pick them as the target of effects? What critera would you use to select them if they dont have a name? Obviouslty you have to be able to, but then why cant things like Yoga legend identify them for its ability.

Point is that this is a new thing to have these facedown cards in the staging area, so we need to accomidate for them. There will be "bumps" in the road

Smazzurco said:

Did you read Tag's answer to the OP's 3rd question? Tag, ruled that "Because he says so" you can't look at face down cards. I say he ruled "because he says so" because he has no rules currently to back up his position.

if lynette's keeps copying it after it's face down, you have to be able to look at it, otherwise there is no way to resolve disputes when neither player can agree on what the exact text of the face down card is.