Shaneth said:

Of course it isn't; I just said it was closer to getting there -.-' In any event, the point was that having more options on what to discard isn't all happy upside, because that also means it can cause more discard in general. Regardless, the card is stupid, always has been and always will be, but that doesn't mean it absolutely must be banned. Certainly, as HDC said, there are bigger problems out there; frankly I'd be confused if BR was banned before a few other cards are, given its thus far minimal impact on the high level meta - although a lot of that might have to with the fact that attack strings in general have had a thus far minimal impact on the meta since set 8. As they come back, BR will get better regardless of any impact the new keywords bring, but it's still far from the top of the list of dumb cards that are still hanging around.

Cetonis said:

I see where you're coming from, but I think having more options is an upside. I'd rather have more options than the same old options, and making me discard what I want instead of what I have to gives me more flexibility.

And this is all under the uncommon situation where I can't control Bitter Rivals.

Oh it is an upside, it's just a double-edged sword is all I'm saying. Probably better for dedicated-finisher sorts of decks, but worse for attack string decks that can't avoid/justify using some ranged/throw/combo attacks. It is also true that foundations as a whole have gotten worse with some of Rashotep's, Siegfried and Nightmare's stuff. Which is why there's a difference between being stupid & overpowered versus being bannable.

If they banned Bitter Rivals, it would not be by necessity, but on the principle that it's stupid and overpowered and never should have been allowed to see print. Under that kind of policy, you would also see LotM, Olcadan's, Rejection, Spike, Battle Prowess, BRT, and Ways of Punishment go immediately, with arguments out there for the inclusion of at least a dozen other cards like ::Akuma:: or Ira-Spinta. And all it would do is outrage one large group of people, and create another who would start demanding every powerful card they don't like get banned since all those other ones did. There might be some people in between who would understand it as a one-time deal, (dependent on the fact that they've put an end to printing dumb cards with James coming in) and would be both okay with the hammerfest and not expecting of any more, but they'd decidedly be in the minority. On the whole, it would be a very bad situation. Which is why they can only ban proven metagame problems, and have to setlle for waiting for any remaining dumb cards to rotate, providing decent answers to them as best they can in the meantime.

Cetonis said:

I agree with most of this, sir.

According to what I researched, All/Order/Water only have 2 cards with Combo while Fire and Good have the most at 10+. Every other symbol has around 5.
I believe every symbol has a counter to Bitter Rivals (outside of Olcadan's Mentoring, which only works 50% of the time anyways) or a way to recur their discarded attacks.

I don't believe that Bitter Rivals will completely shut those decks down. It really all depends.

It's never cost me a game on the other side, but then again I happened to be fairly immune to it with Remy for some reason (noting that I don't have Feline Spikes since those are impossible to find regardless of their cost). Also, after this set, who's worried about discard? Did anti-discard not get printed on an order card or something?

Shaneth said:

Please list these counter I would love to hear em...

Well honestly there are a ton of counters...and lets face it you don't ALWAYS have to counter it. Biggest misconception of Bitter Rivals EVER!

But a list...well this might take a minute...

Seal of Cessation (Infinity)
Olcadan's Mentoring (Infinity)
God of Metal (Air/Chaos/Death) Hide your kill condition anyone?
Chester's Backing (Air/All/Evil/Water)
No Memories (Fire/Death/Void)
Experienced Combatant (Fire/Order/Void)
Program Malfunction (Earth/Order/Water)
Chinese Boxing (Air/Order/Water)
Memories of a Nightmare (Earth/Good/Life)
Memories that Stain its Armor (Fire/Evil/Death)
Intimidating Presence (Death/Evil/Fire)
Flexible Body (Air/Death/Life)
Calming the Mind (Earth/Life/Water)
Dead for One Thousand Years (Earth/Death/Void)
Jealously Guarded Secret (Earth/Death/Void)
Ka Technique (Earth/Death/Void)
Valued But not Trusted (Earth/Death/Void)
Kabuki Artist (Chaos/Order/Air)
Psycho Style (All/Order/Void)
Tag Along (Air/All/Earth/Good/Order/Water)
Revnant's Calling (Death/Earth/Evil/Life)

There are many many more ways to combat bitter rivals....and another obvious one that I will list... DONT RUN ALL KEYWORDS! lol
This list also does not include the very situational counters and does not go over everything by a long shot. To top it all off every symbol has something listed above.

Bitter rivals is fine. It doesn't discourage attacking one bit. It rather encorages you to 1. pack answers that even if your opponent isn't playing bitter can be very helpful to you. 2. Not pack every possible keyword in your deck because there are no repurcusions out there for it. 3. Learn new kill conditions and consider other options.

Anyone consider yet the new Zi Mei and how retarded she can be? You can generate tons of momentum, play all attacks with a 3 or less damage and no keywords on them and turn them all into multiples! (Psst....they can't make you discard those when they are in your cardpool.) On top of that lets face it there is no lack of damage pump or momentum gen on her symbols. Options...got to love options. Like playing an all punch deck, or all weapon deck (astrid anyone?).

Ira Sprinta does a fantastic job of countering Bitter Rivals, as does Big Cyclone. Just to add two obvious ones to the list above.

Bitter rivals does not require a player to pack no keyword cards to combat it, I hate this misconception. If your opeining attack is a keyword its not going to get touched by bitter rivals, and often times one big opening multiple is all a person needs.

It punishes people who overuse powerful abilities, abilities that if not stopped win games (multiple, throw, powerful). It promotes attacking in that does anyone else remember how hard it has been to actually push an attack through based on speed for the past few sets without this thing? Hell if i were to fault it for anything it would be that it shouldnt have a block.

Protoaddict said:

I just rattled off a few other ideas, but you're absolutly right. In no way does it prevent you from playing any keyword abilities. Though I do think especially with a lot of the attacks and support in the newest sets you don't necissarily have to play keyword abilities to win games.

Bob: Just as a note, when making a rattling-off-answers argument, don't list awkward borderline stuff that only works very situationally if at all.(i.e. Initmidating Presence) It waters down the argument, and makes it look like true answers are actually few and far between since you're scratching and clawing for every last unrealistic-but-technically-an-answer card you can find. Incidentally, how exactly does Tag Along counter BR...?

Proto: The "punishing people for overusing powerful abilities" thing is good in theory, but sort of neglects the fact that it also hits Ranged and Desperation, not exactly powerful abilities people should be punished for using a lot. Random Breaker: 1 and Stun: 1 cards kinda fall under that as well. All in all, it hits almost 60% of the attacks that are legal right now - I doubt all or even most of those attacks qualify as things people should be punished for using.

Cetonis said:

Everyones complaint about bitter rivals is the discard right? Tag along is fantastic recursion for 6 symbols and it can't be touched by bitter rivals. Didn't think I would have had to explain that one...

As far as Intimidating Presence goes, how is forcing them to blow up their foundations a bad thing? One of two things will happen. You will either slowly destroy their board or use up part of their precious counters to protect bitter. In use with Spinta you can effectily take away three of their foundations with one attack. Very unrealistic...that board control stuff is for the birds right? And yes Spinta has a keyword, but like Proto pointed out does it matter if it's your first attack?

The list of counters affects all the things that Bitter can do to you. They changed the zone...hmm maybe I'll just use Flexible body and have that attack that would kill me just count as being full blocked. For that matter use Criminal Past. This right here is why I shouldn't have posted anything. Their are ways to combat bitter rivals out there, but unless there is a card with infinity that says "F: For the rest of the game Bitter Rivals does nothing." there will still be people out there who REFUSE to adapt much less try and overcome one specific card.

Tag Along: I suppose, but that's still roundabout and not generally what people are referring to when they talk about "answers." Plus, a lot of time you would be able to get back a copy of the card you discard whether they BR you or not, since there will often already be one in your discard. Intimidating Presence, I never said board control was bad, but it certainly doesn't let you point at BR and say "I'm stopping that." The only way it makes BR go away is if you manage to whittle them down to the point where it's actually the worst foundation they have.

But I digrees. My point is, when people ask for answers the way Sol did, it's a more effective counterargument to list only stuff that clearly and utterly stop it from working, (or punish it mightily) so that they can't say things like "that only stops it one time and blows up to do it" or "that's not a very good answer" or "that's narrow / requires a lot of things to go right," etc. When there are as many strong answers as there are in this case, there really isn't any need to list weaker/awkward ones and allow that sort of bickering.

The Majoirty of the Counters you listed don't stop multiple Bitters over a period of attacks. They are all one time uses. The only one that made sense was the Jealously Guarded Secret because that card specifically is a Bitter counter. I would call Revenants the Runner up even though it doesn't stop Bitter right away it stops it after it's already done the job it was supposed to do.

Sol Badguy said:

Bob's list is a very good compilation. You do NOT need to consistently stop Bitter Rivals over a period of attacks. Fred made the perfect point that if you play your keyword ability attack first then it makes it untargetable by Bitter Rivals, and usually that one attack is all you need, and that if you are abusing powerful abilities then you should ind33d be punished by Bitter Rivals. At any rate, so what if your precious kills get discarded? Pick them back up with stuff like Tag Along or Kabuki Artist and use them like you planned. It's no big deal at all.

... I'm honestly kinda disappointed. But, eh, logical debate is logical debate I guess...

It's a 3/4. Furthermore, it isn't exactly the kinda card you run in 4s (unless your deck is just THAT aggressively-oriented), so those are two extremely limiting factors. Furthermore, it doesn't promise you WILL block their attack, or that they won't block yours.

Is it an amazing card? Without a doubt. I feel it's pretty much a staple, at least 2 to every deck that can kinda thing.

So, what I am understanding is that, due to the new keyword abilities and traits, you can discard even more than previously? Well, that would be the definition of getting better, now wouldn't it?

I think it deserves to get better; EVERYBODY cried about the card, yet it hasn't seen any play whatsoever until now.

Give the card some balls space, please.

Shaneth said:

Sorry but I stopped readingyour post after you saidthat that guy had a good List...Calming the mind was on that list. How the hell does Caliming the Mind in any way, shape, or form counter Bitter Rivals? In fact don't answer that because I am just going to skip over any of your posts now because it is obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about just like him.

You know what while I had this thing quoted a did see a sentence that irked me.

Fred made the perfect point that if you play your keyword ability attack first then it makes it untargetable by Bitter Rivals, and usually that one attack is all you need.

Last I checked the desginers were trying to get the game back to attacking multiple times over a period of turns. this is what I would love to see as I am sure many other would as well. But you are saying that the game is fine the way it is just play spike as your one and only Kill card and win and that is fine Bitter doesn't do anything cuz you played spike first and had no need for any other attack cards in your deck. Well I don't like playing like that. I actually like running 12-20 attack decks and feel that that is how the game should be. Bitter Rivlas discourages this and as I have said before makes combo a really crappy keyword since you are not going to be able to pull it off if it gets discarded while you are setting up the combo.

In fact please explain to me how exactly playing your Combo attack first is "all you need"? How does Playing a Dragons Flame as my first attack do anything? Sure It won't get Bittered but I didn't get to pull off that sexy combo bbecause I had to play that crap first.

I have no problems with Bitter Rivals at the moment but I assure you that once Block 4 omes around I will be overjoyed to not have to see that card ever again.

Seeing how this thread is becoming a (f)lame (war) thought i'd post something i've noticed that may be helpul to others. Earth and death at the moment laugh at bitter rivals and many other cards that are basiacly free to use. ka technique can turn it off for a turn, no forgivness!, and most of siegys stuff can turn it over for the game. Memories that stain its armor and past shrouded in mystery can just blow it up.

Of these I like rashotep and siegfrieds the best. As its not destroying or commiting anything many staging area protection cards cant trigger. Earth can have is way with many decks and people really should prepare for it.

O-M-F-G!!!!!!! Lets start a riot shall we and to anyone who does not agree, lets call them a god **** idiot...cuz u know forums weren't made for opinions to be heard.

Now both sides of this arguement are making good points, which makes it diffucult for me to decide as to which side I want to pick. On one hand, I can see the point that a few of you have made arguing about the necessity of this card. Powerfuls and Multiples can be a nasty thing to face and there are answers that is true, but on the other side are people being punished for playing Combo's, Throws, and Multiples? Before BR you had to face off with these things, but there were ways to handle that than and there are ways to handle it now. Do I belive in the ban hammer for BR...NO! But an errata couldn't hurt in the form of commit and while I know that you have to work around it I feel that this is a reasonable compromise. Regardless, I can rest assure you that sense this topic sprung up, FFG will more than likely look at this card and scrutinize and analyze it to death. Respect the judgement that they make. Till than, i will keep using it till I am otherwise told.

Sol Badguy said:

Ok on Calming the mind...whoops...sorry made a mistake. I forgot I am not perfect as you are sir. Here is one to replace it...PRANKSTER. Still not a good enough answer I suppose. I still have to give up something to counter your opponent. **** and I thought this was just a fancy game of solitare and the guy sitting across from you was just there for effect and atmosphere.

You're right tho, the game hasn't moved more towards attacking more often and over multiple turns. Have you read any of the attacks from the new set? All of them are complete crap and can't be played what so ever. I would never run that Midnight Launcher attack...it doesn't have a keyword so it can't be worth anything. It only stops rejection but it is so not worth it....no combo on it, no multiple, no throw, no ranged, no powerful. It's just not worth it. Hades Ax is another one...a 4/3 3M5 damage attack, good block, and a damage pump off of how many pieces your opponent has to modify a control check. Pure garbage. What was James thinking? Those are just 2 of the list of completely horrible attacks in these new sets. **** guess I'll just pull out my Spikes for all of those auto wins. Man I was worried I might be able to run something else.

Dude I am so sorry you are too narrow minded to find answers to Bitter Rivals. Perhaps you should stay just to casual play, perhaps you will find that meta more enjoyable. Heck at your own store see if your scout (which may be you) will set up a house rule that Bitter can't be played at local tournaments. But why stop there? Lesser prevents all Responses from being played that needs to go to. And what about Strifes, American Made, and Superior Witch? Speed pumps completely negated...way to OP that needs to go to. E negation prevents me from playing multipe, combo, and powerful as well as too many other things. Take it away!

But what do I know...I am just an idiot that yah know doesn't have problems dealing with the "problem" card. God I am such a bad player for teching my decks to counter what my opponent has...

Yeah I did read all of the new attacks. Guess what though HALF of the Attacks in the New Soul calibur set have Keywords. And MORE(probably about 60-70%) than half the orange cards in Shadowar have keywords. So Yeah. Out of all the attacks that are non keyword abilities that are actually good...there is very few. So many attacks were given combo. Which was an amazing way to get people to start running more attacks in a deck and actually stringing along a string of attacks rather than just 1 Spike for GG.

I also see that you either don't like to read or are just incapable of doing so(which is why I assume Calming the Mind was on your list) but I said i don't think bitter should be banned. I think it is certainly overpowered but not ban worthy. I just think it sucks that we got so many cards that can be discarded now. I think it is safe to say that Range decks will never be viable while Bitter rivals is around. Oh and to all the people saying "Oh heaven forbid keyword should run wild" in your sarcastic ways PLEASE tell me what Ranged has ever done that is SOO strong and game breaking huh? That +0 Mid block to another Ranged is just plain broken huh?

Actually to be fair Sol, Range decks havent worked since set 1. I think ive used the range to block using the effect maybe once and ive been playing since set 1.

Also just thought id toss another answer to BR here for the hell of it, Lord of the makai. Attack, E with Lord, add the keyword to your momentum, attack 2nd E to get it to ur hand... Combo attack... profit?

If you are really going that far on a tangent what has unique done? lol

I completely understand your frustration. Yes Bitter can be an extremely frustrating card, but when you ask for a list of counters and when someone gives you a list of stuff you could possibly use and you just toss it aside, it really shows how much you were not really looking for counters in the first place. Were they all the best? Prob not, but gave you some options to think about. People find ways to overcome obsticles.

Honestly drop the Calming the mind bit. Really? I made a mistake...said that last post. And before we make any broad sweeping generalizations that ranged will never be viable again, lets look at 2 different options. 1. Starter Sakura...can play it from her dicard pile and since its never in her hand it can not be discarded. 2. Run fighting for information...play it from your discard pile at +4 dif, but so what? HPB you want to commit for more damage.

No one ever made the case that ranged was too powerful, but to standardize the game and give the designers more of a chance to put better abilities on they changed it to become a keyword ability and save themselves that worry. Yes it can be hit by bitter, but it also can be used to protect that combo card (or multiple, or powerful) you are about to play from your hand rather than see it discarded.

Sol Badguy said:

Wait, you yell at him for being incapable of reading yet you refused, or were incapable, to read his statement that he made a mistake...Classy.

So how do we attack over multiple turns if there is bitter on the field. Well theres a couple of ways. Control bitter rivals (committing, blanking, destroying, removing, flipping, making sure it never hits the field). Cancel it. Make it so discarding is not the best option for them to take. Play anti discard cards. None of those things I mentioned are hard things to do. I have yet to see a single deck out there, that has been in some way competitive, not be able to do those things.

Link said:

Don't think this is going to work, personally. Then it becomes a war of "Who gets their E in first?", the same situation which irritates me the most about Bitter Rivals, only with one less Bitter Rivals and one more Lord of the Makai.

As far as Ranged decks, obviously they didn't work - That'd require they'd be given support and back then, Lord knows we couldn't have that.