You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

Well, it's technically dice you can use with up to six games!

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

I know, but who doesn't like rolling dice for real?

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

I know, but who doesn't like rolling dice for real?

Well at that point is it a gimmick, or a conscious decision on the part of the consumer?

The dice are neat I think, but I invested in real ones for WHRPG and decided to save the cash on EoE. I've got no buyer's remorse for WH but I also pat myself on the back for the app for EoE. I think the app is as neat in its own way as the dice are themselves as it virtually 'rolls' the dice, and even uses the accelerometer if you want to shake your device of choice to 'roll'.

Very few games have any form of resolution beyond a pass/fail mechanic. You'll have to let me know what d20 game has anything beyond that. I would be interested to know.

Just because a dice system doesn't have greater nuances of success baked in doesn't mean you can't design a game that does.

Also, there are many d20 games that do have gradients of success. Look at critical hits. Look at climbing rules. That could easily be extrapolated into something system wide.

Just because the designers chose not to do such a thing isn't a fault of the basic mechanics.

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

I know, but who doesn't like rolling dice for real?

Well at that point is it a gimmick, or a conscious decision on the part of the consumer?

The dice are neat I think, but I invested in real ones for WHRPG and decided to save the cash on EoE. I've got no buyer's remorse for WH but I also pat myself on the back for the app for EoE. I think the app is as neat in its own way as the dice are themselves as it virtually 'rolls' the dice, and even uses the accelerometer if you want to shake your device of choice to 'roll'.

I think rolling physical dice us a pretty big part of the basic RPG experience.

And a cheaper app doesn't make the dice less of a gimmick.

Very few games have any form of resolution beyond a pass/fail mechanic. You'll have to let me know what d20 game has anything beyond that. I would be interested to know.

Just because a dice system doesn't have greater nuances of success baked in doesn't mean you can't design a game that does.

Also, there are many d20 games that do have gradients of success. Look at critical hits. Look at climbing rules. That could easily be extrapolated into something system wide.

Just because the designers chose not to do such a thing isn't a fault of the basic mechanics.

Those examples aren't the same at all. You can't get triumph, advantage, threat, or despair out of D20 unless you want to do a lot of math, in your head, on the spot. Normal dice inhibit multi-dimensional results...not prevent, but inhibit.

Anyway, all I'm objecting to is the use of the word "gimmick". It suggests a cheap, cynical, and unnecessary marketing ploy, when IMHO it works hand in hand with the narrative mechanic to provide a simple and easy-to-resolve experience.

I'm not speaking of gradients of success. I am speaking of doing more than pass/fail. Gradients of success are still pass/fail. The dice in Star Wars (and maybe Warhammer, I'm not as familiar with that dice) allow for more than gradients of success. They allow other variations, such as help for an ally in your failure or success, an additional maneuver, success but at cost, victory from the jaws of defeat, and more. The narrative dice allow both players and GM much more latitude to edit the scene.

Calling it a "gimmick" smacks of the accusations that FFG are trying trick people much like the people back during the release of EotE accusing them of such "trickery" because they are putting out three core rulebooks. If you don't like it, don't buy it. They've come up with a mechanic supported by the dice. Could they have done otherwise, possibly, but probably not. At least not as well as the narrative dice work.

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

I know, but who doesn't like rolling dice for real?

Well at that point is it a gimmick, or a conscious decision on the part of the consumer?

The dice are neat I think, but I invested in real ones for WHRPG and decided to save the cash on EoE. I've got no buyer's remorse for WH but I also pat myself on the back for the app for EoE. I think the app is as neat in its own way as the dice are themselves as it virtually 'rolls' the dice, and even uses the accelerometer if you want to shake your device of choice to 'roll'.

I think rolling physical dice us a pretty big part of the basic RPG experience.

And a cheaper app doesn't make the dice less of a gimmick.

A gimmick's definition is one of a novelty not having relevance to the product in question though, and since dice regardless of the symbology embossed on them are in fact central to RPGing I would say that portion of definition simply doesn't apply. All dice are central to RPGing.

In regards to other uses of the word and whether the fact it uses abstract symbology as opposed to numerals does constitute a novel approach somewhat. Given that the different symbols actually do represent different results mechanically in a single roll doesn't really support an opinion that they are pointless as other functions in the game are decided by that single roll. Combine the multiple mechanical functions being decided with a single roll and you have a dice system that is more efficient. Then there is the narrative element which is far from gimmicky but is new.

These points with the fact they do provide a low cost alternative in the form of the app in addition to a conversion table for standard dice within the first 12 pages of their CRB it hardly seems like they're intending to lock a customer into purchasing their dice or else.

You can do more than pass /fail with a d20.

Or a handful of d6s.

Or d100s.

Gimmicks aren't bad by default.

But having totally separate dice for a single game that you have to buy?

That's a gimmick to me, even though they do work.

You can buy the app like I did. Much cheaper than the dice, for any system for that matter, and it is offered on their site, so doesn't seem like an aggressive strategy to force anyone into anything if they offer a way to undercut their own gimmick.

Sacrilege! Must... roll... dice...

Actually I did both. But as a player I need to roll things...

Interesting how a 'gimmick' 40 years ago becomes the norm, then later turns into a 'gimmick' again.

Actually, I was sceptical about the dice, but the more I used them, the more I realised what a great tool they are for a game like this. It's the FFG Warhammer system, but stripped of the clunky elements like 'stance dice' and streamlined. We find it now very easy to interpret the dice pool, though it takes a bit of getting used to initially.

I also like the 'falling forward' aspect that seems ideal for a pulp game like Star Wars... various degrees of success that doesn't stonewall you. The players are always coming up with new ways to interpret things; the dice involve them in the narrative and help my job as narrative GM.

Okay Human Target, we get it, you like d20 and not this. And yes, a few d20 games like 13th Age try to interpret things beyond the binary 'succeed/fail paradigm'... but I find this system very flexible and innovative. And this is from someone who has been using D&D dice for over 30 years and generally likes d20.

'Apps', though...? Ugh, you crazy kids! You can have my dice when you pry them from my cold dead hands!

Yes, Apps madam.............and I'm also older than you............not that you're old..............

Hahaha! I feel ancient some days! I work with a much younger crowd and usually hold my own when it comes to gaming and music... The technology loses me though!

Anyway, I understand the convenience aspect, but nothing for me beats the feeling of rolling real dice. I actually like the feel of the EoE ones - really chunky and solid!

I love the WHFRPG dice for more or less the same reason, but I essentially had an attack of cheapskate fever when I decided to jump into EoE and was looking at the cost effective factor. No question though the product FFG sells is quite good.