Okay,

The guardsman in my party just learned Heavy Weapon (SP) and of course he wants a heavy gun, granted.

Now an Autocannon or Assault Cannon is way to heavy and for good reason, but an Heavy Stubber is just silly compared to the Armageddon.

Heavy Stubber:
Cost: 750
Range: 120
Rate: -/-/10
Damage: 1d10+4 I
Pen:3
Clip 200

Armageddon:
Cost: 100
Range: 100
Rate: S/2/6
Damage: 1d10+4 I
Pen: 0
Clip: 15
Special: Reliable

Okay, so far so good.
The damage is the same and for the cost differance you can buy 2 ammo selectors and thus tripling the Clip to 45 and you can buy 720 rounds of Man-Stopper rounds with the surpluss cash which is probably more than you'll ever use.

So why would one ever buy a heavy stubber, which only has a clip of 40 if you want to make it portable in the least, the weight differance is dramatic.

Modified Armageddon: 9.5kg
Modified Heavy Stubber: 35kg

Could anyone tell me why the Heavy Stubber is useless, or should it be more powerful?

edit: oh, and the Armageddon doesn't have to be "Braced"

Indeed, the heavy stubber's stats do not make much sense at all. Judging by it's weight of 35 kg it's pretty much an analogue of a heavy machine gun like the present day .50 cal. The description also mentions it as being effective against light vehicles, again suggesting that it's supposed to fill the same role as the .50. The impression I get from the picture and the description is that the heavy stubber is a crew served support weapon...so yeah, 1D10+4 is ridicilously low when compared to the Armageddon, or even a regular autogun. Giving it the 'tearing' special rule might rectify that somewhat

An Autocannon should have the X damage but doesn't have Tearing....Assault Cannon does...

Upgrading the Damage would make the Heavy Bolter useless...okay, that one does have Tearing like all bolt weapons...

I might upgrade the damage and penetration by 1...less than a Heavy Bolter...but just a bit more...

Heavy Stubber:
Range: 120
Rate: -/-/10
Damage: 1d10+5
Pen: 4
Clip: 200 or 40
Rld: 2 Full or 1 Full
Weight: 25kg
Special: Pain in the ass to carry
Cost: 750 or 850 Thrones

I think this might be better

Santiago said:

I'd leave the Autocannon's damage type as is, personally - they don't, afterall, always use explosive rounds (the Munitorum Manual, for example, lists them as using solid shells). Special explosive ammo could be introduced to change the damage type to X, obviously, but I don't think it should be a default assumption.

Granted on the X vs. I damage, the IH states them using technically spent uranium.

Though any ideas for the new stats for the Heavy Stubber?

I got lots of 'variations on a theme' for section automatic weapons... or 'big slug chuckers' for sustained rates of fire if you will. Because the heavy stubber is crap (well its not too crap, we stole ours for the party and you'll put up with the ugly bits a bit for free)

However I'm at work and its at home so I'll chuck them up later when I get back.

I don't really have a problem with those changes. It should be firing a heavier, more powerful round than the Armageddon so upping the damage and pen by 1 is justified in my book. Slashing the weight by one third, same thing. All in all it makes lugging around a heavy stubber actually worthwile.

The thing that still bothers me is that there is no light stubber. After all the fact there is a heavy stubber implies that there are light stubbers as well. If the HS is the IoM analogue of the Browning .50 cal, where are the general purpose machine guns like the FN MAG? There should be some sort of belt fed support weapon using the same round as the standard autogun...

Something like this:

Light Stubber

Range: 120 (slightly longer and heavier barrel than the regular autogun)
Rate: -/-/10
Damage: 1d10+3
Pen: 0
Clip: 200 round belt or a 30 round magazine (alternate feed system that can use regular autogun mags, like the FN Minimi/M249)
Rld: 2 Full (belt) or 1 Full (magazine)
Weight: 15kg
Special: -
Cost: 300

Or using an intermediate round, something inbetween the standard autogun and the Armageddon. Basically a relabeled heavy stubber from the core rulebook (except the reduced weight). Still somewhat less capable than your modified heavy stubber.

Light/Medium (?) Stubber

Range: 120
Rate: -/-/10
Damage: 1d10+4
Pen: 3
Clip: 200 round belt or a 40 round box
Rld: 2 Full (belt) or 1 Full (box)
Weight: 18kg
Special: -
Cost: 500

Well,

Actually there are medium and light stubbers, they are called the autogun and the autopistol....

Technically most SP weapons are nicknamed Stubber, just like the Stub revolver.

Santiago said:

Call them whatever you like. I still think there's a huge gap between the various autoguns and the heavy stubber that needs to be filled by something. Autopistols and autoguns aren't support weapons and the heavy stubber is well...just too **** heavy to be a practical personal weapon for an unaltered human.

Stubb Guns and Heavy Stubbers are specifically 20th century weapons that are still used by backwater PDF forces. In the old Heavy Stubber art it's literally an M60.

Also, the Armageddon is stupidly overpowered and can't really be used as a comparison to anything.

Yeah, IMO the doctrine would probably still follow the same as whats used now.

Autopistol -> semi auto sidearm/ mini-uzi

Autogun -> AK47 assault rifle

_______ -> FN-Minimi SAW

_______-> M60/M240

Heavy Stubber -> Browning .50

Action_Carl said:

Well, not really, if you look at all the pistols which do 1d10+4 I, 1d10+5 was too much I guess, but the eratta changed that back to 1d10+4 I.

First of all, Pen 3 is nothing to scoff at. Its actually quite a lot. Both weapons are meant to be used under circumstances usually involving at least Flak Armor, and/or Cover.

The Heavy Stubber can chew through Cover quite a bit, and Pen 3 is basically 3 Points of damage on most opponents.... unless you use it on civilians. I will happily agree that the Armageddon is too powerful even in the 1D10+4I version, and I have cut down its range to 80 in my games, but without any kind of armor penetration (Manstoppers arent exactly commonplace to find in my games, and usually are rare enough that using them (and the empty casings) can prove to be a dead giveaway to your identity) the Armageddon isnt all that great.

The increased range is really a matter of where you use it. The higher RoF doesnt matter all that much, unfortunately.

Basically, the Heavy Stubber is what I would consider a flavor weapon. There are a lot of guns that nobody who is interested in raw power would ever buy, but I assume that my NPCs dont have access to neat tables for comparison, and so I use "pointless" weapons to, for example, lend a certain flavor to a mercenary unit.

Santiago said:

For some reason I was thinking that the Armageddon was Pen 3 and the Heavy Stubber was Pen 0, whoops.

But it's still very very powerful for only 100/Average

I've solved this problem and the problem that fully automatic fire is extremely powerful by NOT allowing fire selectors to add clips, fire selectors can switc to different bullets in the same clip. Basically if you use fire selectors to triple ammo size, fully automatic weapons like Armageddon and the Orthlak Mark IV become far better then Bolt weapons and heavy weapons like the heavy stubber.

With this in mind in my group the guardsman's heavy stubber is a well loved and extremely powerful weapon, you can fire it twenty times on fully automatic and not change clip, also it has 3 pen without having to buy special bullets for it, it's wonderful.

Section Automatic Weapon/SAW/Light Machinegun
This is typically a small calibre, high ROF, high capacity machinegun which is carried by a single trooper in the field, typically a very strong individual as they are still quite weighty. While they don’t carry the punch of a larger stubber, the flexibility of being able to move quickly with the weapon without having to set up a tripod, bipod or brace it against something so the gunner can move and shoot at walking pace.

(Skill is Basic Weapon: Solid Projectile)
Most are between 6 and 9mm calibre depending on the world they originate from and from that sectors ammunition standard and most gunners will have an assistant who carries additional ammunition or split amongst the rest of the section sometimes called a squad.

Some carry a bipod integrally for when the weapon is used in a defensive position.

Heavy Stubber/Heavy Machinegun
A much larger weapon of war which generally has the same firing mechanism as a SAW, just a much larger calibre of bullet which is anywhere between 10-15mm in diameter depending on it’s origins. Aside from doing devastating injuries and a much longer range, they are comparatively stationary due to their weight and rely on either being mounted on a vehicle for any kind of mobility. Otherwise they can be found on a mounted in a pillbox or even just a simple tripod behind a protective bank of sandbags, stone, bricks or earth somewhere with a good field of fire over the neighbouring area. They are crewed by 2-3 guardsmen who consist of a gunner and assistants to carry the tripod and ammunition.
(Skill is Heavy Weapon: Solid Projectile)

Canter BR4-40 Class: SAW
An ancient design which has been knocked off in various sectors in some form or another in various small calibres as a weapon filling an odd middle ground between a full size SAW and a very large Autogun. It is mostly found in less well-off PDF regiments and assigned typically to 1 in 12 soldiers, as a result it has a mixed reputation in the imperial military that is probably underserved as a ‘poor mans machinegun’. In the right hands and a good gunner, the BR40 is capable of asserting itself quite effectively and provides a mainstay of high rates of fire commanders can depend on. While it doesn’t have the highest rates of fire, they are reliable, simple and feature a large banana magazine which feeds into top loading breach making it manageable in tight terrain such as jungles and prevents fouling from mud and sand.
Range 120m RoF S/-/8 Dam 1D10+3 Pen 0 Magazine 30 box Rld Full Wt 8.5kg Cost 190 Avail Common

Special: Reliable

Imperial Munitions M170 ‘Ripsaw’ Class: SAW
This ugly weapon has a distinctively awful, metallic tearing noise resembling an industrial sawmill at full tilt and gives it a nickname of ‘Ripsaw’ by some troopers. Normally it comes standard with an aircooled barrel but later models have started coming out with a liquid cooling sleeve which has kept the weapon a lot more reliable under sustained fire for minimal cost. They come standard with a 60round drum magazine and bipod, the cooling sleeve bumps the availability up from Average to Scarce, though it does negate the weapons notoriously fickle heat problems of its lighter barrel. M270’s are ‘Unreliable’ in standard trim after more than 30rds of sustained fire in a row, with the cooling sleeve this keeps it ‘Average’ in reliability. Better quality guns feature a heavier barrel over the standard and negate the cooling issue.
Range 90m RoF S/-/10 Dam 1D10+1 Pen 0 Magazine 60 Drum Rld Full Wt 7.5kg Cost 220 Avail Average
Special: Unreliable after 30rds sustained fire, cooling shroud bought for +40TG negates and adds +3kg

Brixton Pattern C-11000 Squad Machinegun Class; SAW
One of the few surviving STC patterns in this class still in circulation and quite a popular weapon with IG troops if their supply staff can get their hands on one. A genuine ‘C-11’ tends to be snaffled off by special forces most of the time who make the most use out of its very high rate of fire and compact size making it useful for in-close fighting and very few filter down to the regular infantry, even less to the open markets. There is nothing particularly clever or unusual about the weapon, it has a heavy air cooled barrel, belt fed, gas operated feed mechanism and integral bipod, except that it has served as the basis for the majority of Autoguns, SAW’s and larger stubbers most everywhere in the Imperial arsenal.
Cheaper knock offs tend to have poor machined tolerances, substandard materials and less reliable but at a much reduced cost (-3x cost and Average Availability) even so, they are still quite popular and turn up most anywhere and in the hands of anyone with the coin and contacts to acquire them.

Range 100m RoF S/3/10 Dam 1D10+3 Pen 1 Magazine 100 Belt Rld 2 Full Wt 8kg Cost 900 Avail Rare

Special: Reliable Copies are available for 300TG cost but are not Reliable and Average availability

Federation Armaments FA-66 Class: SAW
The workhorse of multiple PDF and IG units, the ubiquitous ‘66’ has its popularity with troops for its proven stopping power as it fires a large calibre round at very high velocity and ease of replacement parts keep them in service for decades. It is a gas operated, belt fed monster of a weapon with considerable range and integral bipod that bridges the gap between a heavy stubber and SAW many commanders feel comfortable deploying anywhere along the lines to plug a gap.
About its only drawback is its weight which many of its operators genuinely feel after lugging it around for more than a few kilometres at a time along with same said heavy belts of ammunition so it is typically an entire section in the field at a platoon level devoted to its service.
Range 150m RoF S/-/10 Dam 1D10+5 Pen 0 Magazine 100 belt Rld 2 Full Wt 12.5kg Cost 500 Avail Average
Special: none

Krupps EW-88C Class: Heavy Machinegun
While there are quite a few heavy stubbers that have better rates of fire, the Krupps has remained in service probably longer than it technically should have simply because it has a price and reliability which most commanders find easy to live with and a better range than most in this class. The fact that it cycles through very large 15.5mm shells also means it has a considerable punch above most which has made it popular with troops that have to take on lightly armoured vehicles from time to time and most often mounted on the back of utility vehicles amongst PDF regiments as a tactical. While often scorned by more regular IG forces, it is hard to discount the value of the weapon in a tactical role as it is immensely dependable, though with its simple, heavy spring based feed mechanism operated by the recoil of rounds cycling through it unlike most gas-operated units, its recoil is best described as ‘utterly savage’ unless its bolted down to something very heavy, like a truck.
Range 180m RoF S/5/- Dam 1D10+5 Pen 4 Magazine 50 Box Rld Full Wt 25kg Cost 800 Avail Scarce
Special: Reliable

Ti-Reaper M-205 Class: Heavy Machinegun
This STC derived weapon is capable of annihilating swathes of infantry, lightly armoured vehicles and serving quite capably as an AA gun, the ‘Reaper’ is a class above most heavy machineguns even if it is overly complicated, expensive and back breaking heavy. Powered by a chain-operated mechanism which instantly spins its 6 barrels up to speed there is very little in the Imperial arsenal of this calibre matching it for sheer firepower in something which is technically probably closer to an assault cannon in most regards.
The weapon runs on standard power cells used in Imperial Las guns, which will cycle the barrels for 200rds, after which they and generally the ammo belts need to be replaced, for fixed emplacements most run off a larger power supply or vehicle battery which effectively means it’ll keep spitting out bullets as quick as gunners can keep feeding them in. What it does to living targets is best described as ‘horrific’ along with the very distinctive howl of one in full flight. Most IG commanders would give their kidney for a decent supply of them when facing Tyrannids or Orks but very few are able to make the trip to Mars or the Inner sectors and haggle with the Adeptus Mechanicus to pick them up …and a tech priest to keep it running. Poorly maintained Reapers are almost useless and they don’t take very kindly to large amounts of mud or sand which quickly wears down any number of the many moving parts.
Range 150m RoF -/-/10 Dam 2D10 Pen 3 Magazine 200 Belt Rld Full Wt 55kg Cost 1500 Avail Very Rare
Special: Reliable, Tearing

Ienna Model 992 HMG Class: Heavy Machinegun
This weapon has the distinct notoriety of having more nicknames than almost any other gun in the Imperial arsenal, partly because it’s been in service for 1000’s of years and also because it deserves some of the more uncultured ones. It weighs more than some of its gunners carrying its tripod (+20kg), the charging arm has been known to take off the odd knuckle, the recoil is awful, it's horribly loud and overheats unless fed a constant supply of often poisonous coolant or their own urine into its barrel shroud. Most tech priests get upset at the more nasty names it gets but have made little inroads in stopping insults to the machine.
But it does kill things quite well which could be considered a redeeming quality along with its variable RoF.
That and they are found almost anywhere in any Imperial force that has devoted heavy weapons teams, which is most anywhere and everywhere with lots of parts, a quick fit barrel which is easily replaced in under a minute when they frequently wear out.
(Every 2000 rounds or weapon becomes Inaccurate- cost 100TG)
Range 120m RoF -/3/10 Dam 1D10+4 Pen 3 Magazine 200 Belt Rld Full Wt 30kg Cost 850 Avail sCR
Special: See notes, base weight is without the tripod

from france

i have trouble with all heavy weapon not just this one because i have the image of necromunda and 40.000k in my mind wher "heavy can carrys such weapons whitout the need of vehicule tripod or anything like that. I don't think i 'am the only one. it nvere mentioned in this forum the fact that powerfully built individual can carry them moving and shooting.

i see three reason to use it in a more cinematic way:

-a natural strong individual

- genetic modified muscle man

- a augmentic modified man

or the weapon is classified best quality but rather than having more devastating stats has its weights considerably lighted.

good games.

for those who have the book "vampire compagnion" for the third edition of vampire the masquerade look at the wepon section their descriptions are particulary good and might help you.

Another option to help the Heavy Stubber out would be to increase the range. Bumping the range to 150-200, I would lean towards 200, would make a big difference in comparison to the Armageddon. The extra range would also put it more squarely into the anti-vehicle role, as you want to be as far from most vehicles as possible.

the 8 spider said:

The range of strength and toughness bonuses achievable by human PCs allows a strong, tough character to haul around heavy weaponry of various weights. The only thing preventing a character from firing a heavy weapon on the move (in as much as any weapon can be fired on the move in DH - by taking a move action, and then shooting as your second half action) is the requirement to spend a half-action bracing a heavy weapon in order to fire it accurately (without bracing, a Heavy Weapon can be fired on single shot only, and suffers a -30 penalty on all rolls to hit) - bracing can represent any of a number of things, from propping the weapon up against a window ledge or low wall, using a bipod or tripod, or simply planting your feet, getting a tight grip on the weapon and steadying yourself to fire, whichever is most appropriate for the character. A character of Strength 40 or more can acquire the talent Bulging Biceps, which allows him to fire a Heavy Weapon on semi- or full-auto without bracing (though he still suffers the -30 to hit penalty), allowing him to continue laying down fire support while moving around (remembering, though, that nobody can under normal circumstances fire any weapon on semi- or full-auto without spending a Full action to do so).

Consequently, a strong character can haul around a heavy bolter or missile launcher, or even an MP Lascannon or Autocannon if he's really strong, and keep using it without having to make use of a bipod or tripod. He will, however, be less accurate than if he stopped and braced the weapon before firing.

A character of Strength 40 or more can acquire the talent Bulging Biceps, which allows him to fire a Heavy Weapon on semi- or full-auto without bracing (though he still suffers the -30 to hit penalty), allowing him to continue laying down fire support while moving around (remembering, though, that nobody can under normal circumstances fire any weapon on semi- or full-auto without spending a Full action to do so).

That's funny - I always read the Bulging Biceps to actually eliminate the entire penalty of firing unbraced, though I have to admit the talent indeed doesn't say anything about the -30 penalty. Oh well, I still like my version better. DH definitely needs huge Catachans called Blain lugging miniguns around.

@Topic

I'd see the problem less with the Armageddon and more with the fire selector actually adding ammo capacity. As is, the low ammo capacity of the Armageddon is its main weakness. If the enemy isn't down within 2 FA, one burst and one single shot, you get a full round of reloading.

Simply changing the RoF to 0/0/20 and adding the special
Massiv fire: When make a Full auto firing of the weapon, you hit with 2 insted of 1 extra hits per degree of succes.

Cifer said:

Bulging Biceps or not, it still takes a full action to full-auto fire any weapon (unless you or the weapon happens to have the Auto-Stabilised trait - the kind of trait reserved for gun-servitors, vehicle-mounted heavy weaponry and Astartes in Terminator Armour), so being able to fire full-auto weapons without bracing just saves you a half-action in the turn before you fire - it's not like the talent allows you to fire a heavy bolter from the hip as you sprint across no-man's land. Given that bracing can be any number of things, as I explained above, if your character is appropriately big and strong, that half action could simply be the character planting his feet and getting ready to unleash hell. So it's not like characters like that are impossible with either ruling.

And, given the relatively long ranges of most heavy weapons, and the +20 you get for firing on full-auto anyway, the -30 for firing an unbraced heavy weapon on full-auto becomes a virtual non-issue very fast...

Cifer said:

yeah i guess i never read fire selector that closely and read it more as loading 3 different types of ammo in the clip and being able to slecect back and forth between them

As it is, the Heavy Stubber can lay down 20 rounds of supressive fire without reloading, the Armageddon can lay down 2 or perhaps 6 if you're generous. This ability to pin down enemies for long periods of time seems exactly what the Heavy Stubber is designed for: a large, heavy device for shaping the battlefield to your needs, not a hard-core gun for killing armoured heretics (although that does seem a bit more awesome I admit).

There is one problem with this idea: In laying down 20 rounds of suppressive fire, there's an approximately 76.6% chance of suffering a jam. Then again I suppose that's what the sacred machine oil is for.

There is one problem with this idea: In laying down 20 rounds of suppressive fire, there's an approximately 76.6% chance of suffering a jam. Then again I suppose that's what the sacred machine oil is for.

Or you could shell out a few more bucks for a Good quality version and be happy about the Reliable trait that comes with it. Of course, if your group has a tech-priest with Technical Knock, it's pretty irrelevant anyway.