First off, in the event of a failed action from Advanced Sensors, you've already activated your AdvS, so yes, you've got to take your action now.

The only way for a Focus to be prevented is if Carnor Jax is in Range 1, which means that your Target Lock would have a viable target, so you'll always have at least one action available.

...Come to think of it, that's a decent reason to give Carnor Jax some Expert Handling lessons.

------------

As for the Turr Phennir thing, it doesn't quite work that way. His ability says that you MAY perform a free Boost OR Barrel Roll action.

That is to say, you may choose one of the two, or you may choose not to do an action. If you want Turr to get an Evade token in the middle of combat, you gotta give him PTL, and have him do one of those two actions.

...I'm pretty sure that even if he has PTL, if you can't do one of those two actions first, you don't get to activate PTL, but I'd call a judge over to make sure my interpretation is kosher.

First off, in the event of a failed action from Advanced Sensors, you've already activated your AdvS, so yes, you've got to take your action now.

The only way for a Focus to be prevented is if Carnor Jax is in Range 1, which means that your Target Lock would have a viable target, so you'll always have at least one action available.

...Come to think of it, that's a decent reason to give Carnor Jax some Expert Handling lessons.

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As for the Turr Phennir thing, it doesn't quite work that way. His ability says that you MAY perform a free Boost OR Barrel Roll action.

That is to say, you may choose one of the two, or you may choose not to do an action. If you want Turr to get an Evade token in the middle of combat, you gotta give him PTL, and have him do one of those two actions.

...I'm pretty sure that even if he has PTL, if you can't do one of those two actions first, you don't get to activate PTL, but I'd call a judge over to make sure my interpretation is kosher.

My point about Turr Phennir is that if you use the 'strict' action handing on pg8 of the FAQ it does allow for that. Which (IMO) is the same reason as you're stuck with Advanced Sensors.

From FAQ:

When acquiring a target lock, the player must first

declare the intended target. Then, he measures

range to the declared target to see if the target

is within legal range. If the target is in range, the

ship performing the action must acquire a target

lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the

player may declare a different target, or he may

declare a different action.

• When performing a barrel roll action, the player

must first declare from which side of the ship’s

base the action will be performed. Then, he

measures to see if the ship is able to perform

a barrel roll action from any legal area on the

declared side. If the ship can perform the barrel

roll action, it must do so. If the ship cannot

perform the barrel roll action, the player may

declare a different side from which to perform a

barrel roll, or he may declare a different action.

• When performing a boost action, the player must

declare which maneuver template to use. Then,

he measures to see if the ship is able to perform

a boost action with the declared template. If the

ship can perform the boost action, it must do so.

If the ship cannot perform the boost action, the

player may declare a different maneuver template

to use, or he may declare a different action.

So, with Turr, if you attempt to perform a boost/barrel roll and are blocked, then you can choose a different action according to that sequence in the FAQ. I 100% agree that it SHOULDN'T be this way, but that wording is pretty specific on what to do when one of the action fails.

The rule book also notes that you can check range for TL and space for barrel roll BEFORE committing to the action. So does that mean you're not committed to using Advanced sensors and the FAQ is just a guide on how to resolve actions during the Actions step?

There's two different ways to resolve it with two different answers. Neither are intuitive IMO.

(I should also note, that I am honestly confused about the situation per the rules - I have no skin in the game one way or the other)

So, with Turr, if you attempt to perform a boost/barrel roll and are blocked, then you can choose a different action according to that sequence in the FAQ. I 100% agree that it SHOULDN'T be this way, but that wording is pretty specific on what to do when one of the action fails.

The CRA says if an action fails you have to pick a different one, but come on... That action must still be a legal one. You can't try a barrel roll with a TIE, find that it'll fail, and then target lock. You can pick a different action, but nothing adds to the list of what actions are available. Since the CRA doesn't explicitly override any other rules, those rules are still in force - so you can't intentionally fail a barrel roll to do a target lock, or have Dutch pass a target lock to an allied ship that has nothing in range so it can focus.

As for the timing, if you don't activate Advanced Sensors, you can't do anything related to actions at all, measuring or otherwise. Being able to measure before committing doesn't mean you can measure during the planning phase, it means that when you have the opportunity to take an action, this is how you do it. No opportunity for an action, no measurement. And by the time you get to the point where you can measure to see if you can fit, you've activated (and are stuck with) advanced sensors.

The only case I can see where you could back off Advanced Sensors is if there was literally no action you could take - and there are a couple. A TIE near Carnor Jax who had no barrel rolls to either direction would be one. An X-wing near Jax who already had a lock on Kagi (who was in range) would be another. They're both extreme, but possible. In this case, you wouldn't be able to complete the Advanced Sensors. The rules and FAQ are fuzzy on how to handle this, but I think most players would disallow the Advanced Sensors.

So, with Turr, if you attempt to perform a boost/barrel roll and are blocked, then you can choose a different action according to that sequence in the FAQ. I 100% agree that it SHOULDN'T be this way, but that wording is pretty specific on what to do when one of the action fails.

The CRA says if an action fails you have to pick a different one, but come on... That action must still be a legal one. You can't try a barrel roll with a TIE, find that it'll fail, and then target lock. You can pick a different action, but nothing adds to the list of what actions are available. Since the CRA doesn't explicitly override any other rules, those rules are still in force - so you can't intentionally fail a barrel roll to do a target lock, or have Dutch pass a target lock to an allied ship that has nothing in range so it can focus.

As for the timing, if you don't activate Advanced Sensors, you can't do anything related to actions at all, measuring or otherwise. Being able to measure before committing doesn't mean you can measure during the planning phase, it means that when you have the opportunity to take an action, this is how you do it. No opportunity for an action, no measurement. And by the time you get to the point where you can measure to see if you can fit, you've activated (and are stuck with) advanced sensors.

The only case I can see where you could back off Advanced Sensors is if there was literally no action you could take - and there are a couple. A TIE near Carnor Jax who had no barrel rolls to either direction would be one. An X-wing near Jax who already had a lock on Kagi (who was in range) would be another. They're both extreme, but possible. In this case, you wouldn't be able to complete the Advanced Sensors. The rules and FAQ are fuzzy on how to handle this, but I think most players would disallow the Advanced Sensors.

I'm not advocating that you do actions unavailable to you (I think you're blending my two examples). With the Turr example, I was suggesting taking an evade action if the barrel roll failed, not something off of his bar or totally unavailable. I 100% agree that is not in the spirit of Turr's card and reasonably it's not a proper course of action. But... what makes the free action available to you from advanced sensors any different than Turr's free action? That's really the point I'm trying to make. If you're using that action resolution, failing that action gives you another. Otherwise, how does Advanced Sensors 'move' to the next possible action upon a failed action?

Part of what brought this up: I was thinking about what would actually happen with a failed Advanced Sensor action and went to look it up for sure. I get a lot of shrugged shoulders when I ask (competent) folks if you must continue to take an action (of some sort) or you act like Advanced Sensors was never activated. Or, you can just say that an allowed free action is a single event, if it fails, it fizzles - move on (and thus don't even get to try another action - before or after movement).

Buhallin - Just so I'm clear, you're advocating the following sequence being reasonable:

1) Decide to take action w/AdvS

2) Measure for target lock, target out of range

3) Page 8 says to choose a new action after target is out of range (can't just say no, and do a post-move action)

4) Do focus action for lack of anything else to do

I agree with this flow using the CPA's action resolution (and at a tournament tomorrow, that's how I would play it)... so how does something similar not apply to Turr failing post-attack barrel roll, then doing an evade action? That's my problem with it and what I'm having an issue grasping within the framework. One can just claim reasonableness and intent, etc... but that's a pretty big oversight IMO. What differentiates between being locked into trying a single action and being able to try a new action after failing?

Quoting is being screwy for me, so:

"what makes the free action available to you from advanced sensors any different than Turr's free action?"

Well, let's look at the cards:

Advanced Sensors: Immediately before you reveal your maneuver, you may perform 1 free action .

Turr Phennir: After you perform an attack, you may perform a free barrel roll or boost action .

They're different because Advanced Sensors allows you to use any action. Turr limits your choice to a boost or barrel roll. Those are the only options which are legal to perform as part of his ability, and nothing in the rules for failing a barrel roll changes that.

If Turr tries a boost and can't do it, he can make another choice of action which is legal for him at that time - if he tried to barrel roll left and failed, he could boost ahead, or barrel roll right. But actions which aren't legal before don't suddenly become legal after failing unless something says they do.

You're trying to read "declare a different action" as meaning that any action is legal, so long as it's different. But rules only override things they say they override, and nothing there changes the list of legal actions.

I don't see why a failed action with AS locks you into using AS?

Let's say I try to TL befor revealing my dial. Target is out of range. The rules in question then states I MAY perform an other action. I don't have to do an other action. If I chose not to, then I have not used AS ability and so I'm still free to take my action after moving.

"Immediatley before you reveal your maneuver, you may perform 1 free action.

If you use this ability, skip your "perform action" step during this round."

"This ability" surely must refere to "perform 1 free action". So if I didn't perform an action, then I have not used "this ability" and should be free to execute my "perform action" step as normal.

Am I missing something? Buhallin is usualy right when it comes to X-Wing rules, so when ever I come to a different conclusion I get suspicious

I kinda agree with Smuggler here. I think Advanced Sensors is not a card you activate, but something you use.

BTW I see another way in which you could have no allowable actions. Try having target lock on Carnor Jax at range 1, nothing else in range, and no barrel rolls or boosts possible.

Q: If a ship already has a lock on an enemy ship,
can the locking ship acquire a target lock
again on the same enemy ship in order to
trigger an effect (such as “Dutch” Vander)?
A: No.

I don't see why a failed action with AS locks you into using AS?

Let's say I try to TL befor revealing my dial. Target is out of range. The rules in question then states I MAY perform an other action. I don't have to do an other action. If I chose not to, then I have not used AS ability and so I'm still free to take my action after moving.

"Immediatley before you reveal your maneuver, you may perform 1 free action.

If you use this ability, skip your "perform action" step during this round."

"This ability" surely must refere to "perform 1 free action". So if I didn't perform an action, then I have not used "this ability" and should be free to execute my "perform action" step as normal.

Am I missing something? Buhallin is usualy right when it comes to X-Wing rules, so when ever I come to a different conclusion I get suspicious

I'm not so sure about this, it smells fishy....

First, if you declare a TL and your target is out of range, under the 'strict' tournament rules, you should select another target. Or take a different action. This is because:

1.- You already gained valuable info about your target's range. Now you are sure of the distance to your target.

2.- You technically declared the action and used the ability (otherwise you wouldn't know that your target is out of range). But, the real deal is that your action failed, not that you 'didn't use it'. This and the fact that when you are still entitled to take a substitute action, you voluntarily give up.... But, IMO, your renounce doesn't make it as if you never used 'advanced sensors'.

I have two thoughts on this.

First, I think Buhalin is right, and that the wording 'you may perform a free barrel roll or boost action' defines the limits of legal actions available to Turr at that time. If you decide to barrel roll and flat out can't, you can attempt a boost. If you somehow can't boost either, you're SOL. You can't Focus, or Evade, or whatever, because those weren't legal options at that time (immediately following his attack). If he's got nowhere to go, he's got nowhere to go - it happens.

Second, I have mixed feelings on Advanced Sensors. On the one hand, I could see someone trying to abuse that - any number of things in the game can be abused in the wrong hands, and I think that needs to get shut down when you see it. On the other hand, at least in games I've played with friends, we tend to grant at least a little leniency there.

If you announce you're using AdvS to barrel roll, and then discover you can't, for example, I don't think I've ever refused to let anyone take a Focus action instead, if they attempted to barrel roll in good faith. Or if they tried to target lock and discovered the guy is just past range 3 - you could definitely argue at that point, if there are other legal targets that could be locked, he should by all rights have to take a target lock on one of them instead.

Now, I don't know if I've ever held anyone to that - say the guy he's trying to target lock is a higher pilot skill. He was hoping to take the target lock for extra damage, but as the target hasn't moved yet, it's just out of range, so he asks if he can take a focus instead (figuring he might as well take it for defense). Legal? Illegal? Is gray area? I don't know, but again it's something I personally usually let slide, because I know he did legitimately want to target lock that guy and wasn't trying to abuse any game mechanics.

It's a fine line, sometimes. I would definitely call BS if I thought somebody was trying to cheat the game mechanics to get an advantage, and I'd call shenanigans on them if that happened. On the other hand, I think there are times where, AdvS or not, since all that affects is the timing of the action, someone attempts an action in good faith, fails, and wants to take a different action instead. Where do you call the line, and is it worth fighting over outside maybe a competitive tournament setting?

If he wants to roll left, and it's blocked, do I let him Focus, or do I insist since he said "barrel roll" he now has to try and roll to the right, and is forced to do so if he's able to fit his ship anywhere over there?

If he wants to target lock, declares a target, and it's out of range, but there's a ship in range behind him, do I insist that since he said "Target Lock," he must lock on any other legal target, or do I cut him some slack and let him change his action if his original target wasn't a legal one?

I know which way the rules probably lean in both cases, but I don't know how often or in what situation I would want to be the rules lawyer that handcuffed you to an action you tried to take in good faith, simply because there is a legal but really crappy alternative I could force him to take using his original action. "Sure, I know barrel rolling right here will move you INTO a range 1 shot of this other ship of mine over here, and you would never willingly do that - but you DID say 'barrel roll,' Steve, and there's no room to your left, so tough luck, kiddo."

• When acquiring a target lock, the player must first
declare the intended target. Then, he measures
range to the declared target to see if the target
is within legal range. If the target is in range, the
ship performing the action must acquire a target
lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the
player may declare a different target, or he may
declare a different action.
• When performing a barrel roll action, the player
must first declare from which side of the ship’s
base the action will be performed. Then, he
measures to see if the ship is able to perform
a barrel roll action from any legal area on the
declared side. If the ship can perform the barrel
roll action, it must do so. If the ship cannot
perform the barrel roll action, the player may
declare a different side from which to perform a
barrel roll, or he may declare a different action.

So if you can't barrel roll the way you want, you can choose another action or try to go the other way. If you cannot target lock the target you want, you can choose a different action or try to lock someone else. I don't think Adv Sensors changes this at all.

The question is if you want to TL and can't, do you get to "undo" Adv Sensors and use your action at the normal time? I would say probably, but I think we need a FAQ for a definitive ruling.

Advanced Sensors doesn't change anything about What you can do, only When you can do it. (I really feel you should read that in Yoda's voice, but I'm not going to mangle the grammar any worse then I do anyway to make it work. )

If I try to do a barrel roll, boost or TL, and can't for what ever reason. The rules covering that is already pretty clear cut. Nothing in the rules say that if I try to boost one direction and can't I have to boost a different legal direction. In fact the FAQ makes it clear that you don't have to. So if I try and boost and can't, I can focus, TL, evade, ect... any other legal action.

Wither I do this before or after I move because of AdvSen changes nothing, you follow the rules for those actions no matter when you do them.

Now the other question is, if I say I'm going to use AdvSen to do something but can't, can I then decide to wait until my normal action phase or not?

I'd say no. If you decide to use AdvSen to change when your action phase is, you're stuck with that choice and if your action can't be done because the TL target is out of range, you have to do something else then, and can't wait until after you move.

Otherwise you could do things like use a B-Wing to check the ranges all over the board before you move, because you used TL actions you knew weren't likely to work due to range, which would give you a rather large advantage.

Honestly, there is nothing firm enough in the timing rules, such as they are, to cover this sort of a situation. We've always had this problem with Squad Leader - if I want to use Squad Leader to let a ship barrel roll, and it turns out that it can't perform the barrel roll, can I back out Squad Leader? Same for Lando... if I pass an action to ship A and that ship can't complete what I want it to, can I give it to ship B instead?

IMHO, you can back out the action, but nothing more - you're committed to using Squad Leader. By the time you're trying to perform the action with the selected ship, you're past the declaration of Squad Leader/Lando, and those are things you can't take back. I think this is supported by the FAQ entry for Expert Handling. When you're trying to do Expert Handling, it says you can measure the barrel roll BEFORE declaring Expert Handling. If sub-actions rolled all the way back, you wouldn't have to do that - you could declare Expert Handling, try the barrel roll, fail it, undo Expert Handling, and pick something else. That it says you can measure the barrel roll first points strongly, IMHO, to being stuck with Expert Handling once it's declared.

I think the same applies to Advanced Sensors. The card provides an ability. By the time you're attempting an action at all, you're obviously using that ability. While you can undo a failed action, nothing says you can undo your use of that ability.

All that said, FFG has been almost stupidly erratic on what you must commit to, when you commit to it, and what you can take back. There's not enough in the rules to says solidly one way or another on this, and we're not going to get a real answer from anyone but them, so send it in.

There's not enough in the rules to says solidly one way or another on this,

I think that's the best anyone can say about the question at hand.