Mostly I am asking about what happens during a tournament. I understand that if you forget to trigger a response then you are out of luck. But what happens if you forget to do a passive?

Can you remember later in the same phase, next phase, next round. What is the ruling on this?

Cheers,

Mooch

In a tournament, I believe it is courteous enough to go back only as far as the last action window to do forgotten passives and Responses. Other than that, if any one action already happened(and in my opinion was not rushed into by the opponent to mess you up), then you cannot go back because that action provides insight and cards could have been played and revealed to change what players do and whatnot. Sometimes the state of the game makes that much of a difference in a match, even if it's only been one action.

And when I say "action", I don't mean counting gold in marshaling or drawing cards through the Draw phase. I mean, playing a card, triggering an effect, etc. where cards in your hand or in play matter because you or the opponent might be reactionary toward what you are doing had they had all the information.

The "one action" method works, although the "that wasn't rushed" thing can get pretty hairy when the stakes are high. Another rule-of-thumb people follow in tournament play is "does fixing it now change anything that happened in between?"

> For example, say you win an INT challenge with LotR Jaime, then win a MIL challenge with Timett. As you are claiming Renown for Timett, you realize you forgot to get the Renown for Jaime for the INT challenge. It's probably OK to take the Renown at that point since the power on Jaime probably wouldn't have affected anything.

> On the other hand, say you win initiative, but totally forget about your Bay of Ice until you play another one in Marshalling. It's probably too late to draw that card now because it could have affected so much by the time you Marshal.

The other question that comes up a lot in relation to this topic is: "Does my opponent have to remind me about passives I forget?" Technically, the passives should happen regardless, and it is good sportsmanship to remind your opponent to grab renown or kneel his Bay of Ice when he wins initiative. And a lot of players do his as a matter of course because it is the right way to play. That said, it's hard to police, because if you're forgetting your own cards, it's very likely your opponent is, too. But it's amazing how many players totally remember the passives that benefit them, but forget the ones that harm them....

OK, what you have said seems to be basic courtesy. But which passive can the opponent in the tournament be a tool about. I will give two examples.

1. Say you played a city plot and forgot to say kneel these 2 guys, (probably not a passive, but lets use this) assuming that since he had just 2 guys it was obvious. It was then noticed in the marshalling. Can he say, you didn't say it so the When Revealed doesn't happen.

2. Say you forgot to draw your 2 cards in the draw phase and you start counting gold. Can he say your out of luck.

OK, what you have said seems to be basic courtesy. But which passive can the opponent in the tournament be a tool about. I will give two examples.

1. Say you played a city plot and forgot to say kneel these 2 guys, (probably not a passive, but lets use this) assuming that since he had just 2 guys it was obvious. It was then noticed in the marshalling. Can he say, you didn't say it so the When Revealed doesn't happen.

2. Say you forgot to draw your 2 cards in the draw phase and you start counting gold. Can he say your out of luck.

For #2, I have never encountered an opponent being a ****** about letting me draw my 2 cards at any point during the marshaling phase if it had been forgotten. That being said, if all you got to was the point of counting gold, I don't see any reason why you can't draw your 2 cards. Lots of us count gold prematurely.

As for #1, I'd say until cards have been marshaled, I'd allow you to work with that kind of "when revealed". If the plot was some kind of a "search your deck" effect, it ends up becoming tainted as soon as you draw your cards. Either put your drawn cards back into your deck and THEN search(then redraw cards) or concede that the plot's "when revealed" is now too late.

The opponent might act during their turn for marshaling much different had he realized he didn't have 2 more standing characters.

I would add, though, that I rarely see people forgetting their plot effects or to draw during the draw phase. It does happen, but usually because the player is going too fast and thinking about the cool thing they want to do in Marshaling before getting through revealing plots. Slow down. Remember what you're doing.

If I were playing against someone who consistently forgot the basic flow of the game, I'd become increasingly less forgiving about letting them go back and correct their play. If they forgot to draw in Rounds 2 and 3, then forget again in Round 4, I'm probably going to be a lot less magnanimous and/or kind about saying "go ahead and draw now" in Marshaling.

There's one area I have a real problem and that is the plot phase - playing melee with titles

There are the Epic Phase event cards which need to be revealed during the plot phase and also some response (such as Frostfang Peaks) ... the problem is people can mull for ages of which title to take and once they have taken the last title it is a case of bam...straight into the draw phase

I find myself having to shout out that I have actions /responses that I want to do before the draw phase

Another bug bear is Wharf Rats - the controller has to discard the top card of their deck each time they win a challenge - it is a passive ... funny how people tend to forget negative passives

As for occasions when we have played the whole challenge phase whilst forgetting about Bungled Orders ... well that is just a mess!

The people I play with usually ask before proceeding to draw phase (or proceeding to the next challenge or sometimes action). Occasionally, I (playing Stark Siege, I'm usually the one to do it) announce I have an action before that (sometimes I say I don't). Most of the time, we go right through Standing and Taxation, though (especially Taxation - I believe it's the only core phase that doesn't have specific effect).

As for the bungled challenge phase, all of you need to pay more attention, there's just no other way to avoid that.

Mostly I am asking about what happens during a tournament. I understand that if you forget to trigger a response then you are out of luck. But what happens if you forget to do a passive?

Can you remember later in the same phase, next phase, next round. What is the ruling on this?

Cheers,

Mooch

I have two TO modes when I'm a TO:

1) TO for whole tournament (can't see all games at once).

In this mode, I do not interfere in a game unless I am directly asked to. I will not fix game states. I will not enforce passives. This is because I do not want to affect the outcome of a game by random luck (I fixed your game, but not that guys. That guy lost because I didn't fix his, but you won because I fixed yours). It is the player's responsibility to remember all of the triggers that benefit them in any way. If you forget a trigger that benefits you, you made a bad play. Is that absolutely fair given there are differences in card knowledge? No. Is it fair to players of equal skill and card knowledge? Yes. I can not interfere in a game without making an assumption about a player and I therefore will not interfere in a game.

In this mode, I am very unlikely to let you take back a passive unless your opponent allows you to do so. I will ask the opponent if what you state is true and any interactions happened that would affect the game state. If he says no, I will heavily consider allowing the passive.

This is also Lucas's take in Netrunner. He will not directly interfere in a game unless he is asked to (or pissed off at you). Lucas is the lead designer for Netrunner, so this is obviously supported at an official level in Netrunner.

As Ktom says, it is polite, proper, expected, and good sportsmanship to enforce passives, but I will not enforce them nor punish your opponent for your mistakes.

2) Refereeing (I am able to watch the entirety of the game from start to finish) - I will enforce all rules in this mode. I am very strict here as people can attest. I have interrupted people for minor things because they were not playing correctly. Here I would've enforced the passive as soon as something happened which could not happen without the enforcement of the passive.

Edit: @HastAttack - So while I understand your frustration, it is up to you to enforce passives that benefit you.

NOW! If I come over as TO and they bold face lie to me about triggering their passive, I am forced to side with them as I have no evidence. If this happens more than once I will seriously consider punitive measures like DQing both players, DQing the offending player given enough evidence, and the like. Make sure to report disingenuous behavior to a judge. Forgetting to trigger a passive that does not benefit you is not disingenuous unless they are bold-face not doing the passive when you remind them. Again, it benefits you. It is your obligation to remember it.

Edit2: While I will not fix your mistakes if I'm not refereeing, I also do not care what you do if you do it amicably. So in the case of your Bungled Order mistakes I would walk over and go, "That sucks. Keep playing." If you then amicably decided how to fix it, I wouldn't care. You could restart the game for all I cared (I wouldn't give you additional time).

if people are forgetting things i give them one courtesy reminder to clear my own conscience. After that, if they forget its on them.

What's more, I've seen Dennis hold himself to that same standard -- forgetting something for the second time and admitting out loud, "That one's one me." To me, that's an important thing in this discussion; whatever you want to hold your opponent to, you had better be prepared to adhere to yourself.