I don't consider myself an expert player of Arkham Horror. Or at least, I don't consider my usual group as an expert group. We played five games over the course of Friday and Saturday night and ended up winning 3 of them. For me to consider myself an expert I reckon we would, at the very least, have needed to win 4 of them if not all of them.

But ... even *we* find Yig to be too easy.

He was the Ancient One in our last game and before he woke up we were struggling throughout. We didn't really have any decent fighters (we always do a random selection of two characters each then pick one of those two to use) and every monster that came out had a minimum toughness of 3 (with the exception of the Cultists who were all dealt with by Wendy Adams and her handcuffs - you have to wonder how lame these Cutlists are that they let a 10 year old girl arrest them *g*). So with all these monsters running around town and with The Dark Pharaoh Herald hurting us whenever we tried to find an Elder Sign, it was tricky. So eventually, Yig woke up. And we chewed him up and spat him out.

After we killed him, we decided to keep going and see how many successes we could get before he finally killed us all. We got 96 successes before the last of our four Investigators died.

Given this, I can see why some people say that killing the Ancient One counts as a draw and not a win. But then again when we went up against Yibb T'Stll with a team of expert fighters we were absolutely massacred - there is no way beating Yibb T'Stll in a fight should be considered a draw, it should be considered a miracle!

So my question is this ... What's the best way of making someone like Yig harder but not making Yibb T'Stll harder? The best way I can see is to select one of the Black Goat Of The Woods difficulty cards AFTER you've selected an Ancient One. If you see you have Yig or someone else really easy, use the ultra hard Difficulty card. The one problem with that, though, is that the wondering around town section of last night's game was hard enough as it was. We really didn't need to make it harder. Just Yig ...

For me, counting final combat wins as draws, Yig always poses a challenge, as I want to win if possible, draw is better than a loss. I've managed to lose to him once in final combat, during my early days, playing 3 investigators, 1 was LiTaS'd when Yig woke, so got devoured. Now needed 30 successes with just 2 investigators, at least one of whom had Stamina max 3. Managed to get 25 successes before both perished.

Did you remember to Curse all the investigators at the start of battle?

You could count yourselfes with one or two additional investigators when facing Yig, so that in a 4 player game, he has 60 hitpoints rather than 40.

Or simply discard the top three green epic battle cards before the final combat... does give you a little time pressure ;D

Dam said:

Yeah. Knowing it was coming, we managed to Bless every Investigator in the preceeding two turns. So Yig woke up and we just all discarded our Curses ...

Ithaqua is another one who can be far too easy in the final fight. Had tricky games against him that got a whole lot easier once he woke up.

Vitus_Prem said:

That might work. :-)

Maybe against Yig and Ithaqua we could try shuffling the red and green cards together? That way, we could lose any minute ... But then again, that just makes it random dumb luck if we lose on the second turn so maybe not.

Stenun said:

So you geared up for final combat and then complain it's too easy ? That's kinda lame.

I don't bother with gearing up crap (getting people Blessed, getting them to full health/sanity, buying tons of weapons, etc.). It's another reason how I managed to lose to Nyarlathotep, I'll keep sealing gates with Clues even if he's 1 doomer away from waking up.

Dam said:

I don't really see getting eveyone Blessed as "gearing up". Particularly not when his Start Of Battle action kicked in again 3 turns later. ;-)

I think getting everyong Blessed before Yig wakes up is required. Like removing as many Clue Tokens as possible before Yibb T'Stll wakes up, or having a few spare weapons each before Ithaqua wakes up. It's not "gearing up", it's a fairly basic strategy - almost to the level of it being insanity to NOT do it.

Stenun said:

To me getting Blessed against any GOO before a final fight as gearing up, I never do it. Yig's easy even without it (4 draws, 1 loss without getting anyone Blessed). Similarly, buying extra stuff against Ithaqua is gearing up. Collecting 32 Clues for Joe D, getting him a shotgun and with Mandy's help shooting Cthulhu in 1 turn is what can result from gearing up. All that time you're buying stuff, etc., you're not actively trying to actually win the game (by closing/sealing). Heck, I've always counted final combat wins as draws even with no preparations. People who gear up for them should really count final combat wins as a semi-loss (more defeat than a draw). Epic Battle deck + gearing up would probably = draw still for me. If I ever bother getting KH (which remains very unlikely), I'll probably still count final combat wins as draws even with the EB cards.

For me, basic strategy = things that helps you to a close/seal win.

Dam said:

I see a distinction ... quite a LARGE distinction ... between getting people Blessed before Yig wakes up as opposed to loading Diamond Joe Quimby up with 32 Clue tokes and a shotgun.

Getting 32 Clue tokens on one character would take you all game and would be a waste. Whereas getting 4 Investigators Blessed just took 2 Investigators two turns each. They used the trophies they had collected throughout the game by killing monsters and closing gates in an effort to win. When that route became obviously closed, we put our time that had been spent to a different use.

Whereas getting 32 Clues on one character and camping in the General Store until you get the Shotgun is completely different. It's just preparing for one thing and ignoring the possibility of anything else.

Stenun said:

So you just quit trying to close/seal, instead prepared of final combat. If I'd gone that route, my first seal-win against Ithaqua would've never happened. Ith was on 10 doomers (out of 11) for 3-4 turns at the end. BGotW Herald in play. I could've ran people to the Church and gotten them Blessed, but instead I wanted to win, not draw (or lose) again. So I ran around, getting Clues, sending people into to gates, each Mythos phase hoping that another gate wouldn't open. Always got an extra turn. Then finally, Ashcan Pete managed a 1-die Find Gate roll, then 2-die roll to close a gate and then spent 5 Clues to slap down seal #6. Satisfying? You better believe it! Would I have enjoyed a draw via a basic die fest as much? Hell no! To me, close/seal win route is never closed.

Getting Blessed before a final combat is to me the epitome of gearing up. Nothing improves your chances in the final combat as much, at least nothing you can do in a similar length of time.

Dam said:

I don't remember the specific numbers of the game last night but I do remember we had only 3 sealed gates and were just one Doom Token away from Yig waking up. Two turns previously, two characters had tried to fight and ended up in the hospital. From there (after buying their health back - does that count as gearing up? If not, why is it different from being Blessed?), they both legged it to the Church and Blessed themselves. We drew the Mythos card ... and got The Next Act Begins. We let it trigger Act One and realised we had another turn. So the two characters in the Church then Blessed the other two Investigators.

I really don't see how you can claim this is equivalent to spending all game getitng a shotgun and 32 clues on one character. I CERTAINLY don't see how you can say it's the "epitome of gearing up". I think you are using a little hyperbole and I don't think that's helping your argument. :-)

Stenun said:

Never said they were equivalent, only that both are gearing. Spending a game getting 32 clues on Joe is something that I would walk out of a game for.

Not big on math, so don't know how much having 4 characters Blessed improves the odds against 4 non-Blessed chars (or 4 normal chars vs 4 Cursed chars in the case of Yig), but I'm guessing quite drastically. Even without ever gearing up (completing Sealing's the Beast Power is kinda on the fence though; I've done it a few times, games didn't always even go to final combat when completed it, but always at the very start of a game and you get +1 for score for Tasks/Missions) I'm 19-14 in final combats. Looking at my stats, I'd most likely still lost to Yog (3 losses), Tsat and Cthulhu (1 each) with gearing up, but all others I don't think so. That would bump my stats to 28-5. Okay, that's arbitrary and going by instinct, but a significant change nevertheless.

Maybe it's argumentative, I don't know. All I know is that for me Blessed = gearing up. Final combats sans EB cards aren't that hard to begin with, even without gearing up. If you actively improve your chances for them by getting Blessed, you shouldn't complain they are too easy. Getting Blessed is a choice you made.

Dam said:

I disagree. As I said, it's a basic strategy. I mean, you might as well say that "if you bought a couple of weapons and then found it too easy, that's your own fault". But no, it's not. Having weapons is pretty central to the game - likewise getting Blessed is a basic strategy, particularly as a way to avoid a Curse.

As stated in one of my other threads, last night we also encountered the Mythos card that Blesses one investigator while Cursing another. Very next turn, the Cursed Investigator went straight to the Church and Blessed himself. Obvious and useful mechanic. Likewise if you know you are about to get hit with four Curses, you try and avoid it. Not doing so and just letting them him you is absurd. You might as well play Chess and let them take your Queen even if you see it coming because to not do so would be "to make it too easy". It's a basic strategy to keep your Queen alive if you can, it's a basic strategy to avoid four Curses if you can. It's part of the game.

Yes, it is possible to munchkin the game and take all the fun out of it. But I don't accept that a tactical move such as Blessing everyone in order to avoid the Curses counts.

Stenun said:

Even with weapons, you might draw monsters that are immune/resistant to the types of weapons you have. To me it's all about timing these things. 99% of my shopping (barring mid-game Retainer/Jenny Barnes/etc.) happens on the first two turns. After that, everyone is focused on gates, either getting clues, closing or sealing them. Some take the long route, through Tasks and Missions. If you get Blessed through an encounter or Mythos, doesn't matter when, it isn't gearing. If you Bless an investigator who is on a key OW journey for example and that investigator fails to seal the gate and the GOO wakes up next turn, not gearing up. But if you see the end-game coming (say GOO is 1 doomer from waking up) and suddenly everyone rushes the Church, forgetting all about gates, to me it's gearing up.

Stenun said:

AH and Chess are very different games. What applies in one, doesn't necessarily apply in the other. Would/does your group play that they add doom tokens to the GOO's track when using the KiY Herald instead of drawing Blights (can be used/exploited against Shudde and Hastur at least)? What about this, everyone is Blessed but then the GOO doesn't wake up from the next Mythos, say it's Yig and there is a Cultist in reach, do you kill the Cultist to bring about the final combat so nobody loses their Blessing possibly on the next Upkeep?

My answer to both is no. Final combat doesn't feel thematic to me, the goal was to prevent the GOO from ever waking.

Dam said:

I realise Chess and Arkham Horror are very different *g*. I was drawing an analogy on basic tactics, not between the games themselves. If your opponent is about to make a devastating move and you see it coming then you make a move to try and stop it, surely?

If your opponent is about to capture your Queen, you try and prevent it. If your opponent is about to grab a corner in Othello, you try and prevent it. If your opponent is about to shoot you in the head in a FPS, you try and prevent it. If your opponent is about to Curse every Investigator, you try and prevent it. I really fail to see how you can argue that trying to counter the moves of your opponent is "gearing up" and in some way "anti-thematic".

As for your specific questions ...

I think we've used the KiY Herald twice and both times found it the least entertaining of the Heralds so haven't bothered since. I really couldn't say what we'd do in any situation using it. I can't even fully remember what it does other than Blight Cards and unnecessary tokens (by that I mean that we found the tokens weren't necessary for the game mechanic the Herald introduced).

The answer to your second question would depend on the situation. If there was literally no other way we could win - for example in the game last night we had just three sealed locations, no Elder Signs, only a few Clue Tokens and no decent fighters. There was no way we were going to win by sealing the locations or having no open gates. So in that situation, yes we would consider killing the Cultist. It's a tactical move. If we're on 4 sealed locations, someone has an Elder Sign and someone has 3 Clues and is in easy of two more ... then no, we'd probably try and seal two more gates. Like any move, it depends on the situation.

And if final combat doesn't feel thematic to you ... well maybe try (re?)-reading The Call Of Cthulhu short story and ask if those sailors won/saved the Earth or if it was a "draw"?

Stenun said:

What about getting everyone Blessed when the GOO is not Yig? What are you countering there? To flip the tables, what, if anything to you consider gearing up?

Stenun said:

And if final combat doesn't feel thematic to you ... well maybe try (re?)-reading The Call Of Cthulhu short story and ask if those sailors won/saved the Earth or if it was a "draw"?

Haven't, nor do I have any intentions of reading HPL/CoC stuff. I would've much preferred FFG had omitted the whole final combat part from the rules. Whole thing feels like a pointless exercise of mass dice rolling.

Dam said:

If Yig is not the Ancient One, then no you are not countering anything. So we probably wouldn't have rushed off to get Blessed - if we were able to we might have shopped for a card that let us cancel the Ancient Ones attack for a turn, instead. We only took the time to Bless everyone because Yig was the Ancient One and were wanted to counter one of his moves.

"Gearing up", at least in the negative terms you obviously hold that phrase to have, to me means you spend the entire game focusing on the final fight or or twinking the mechanics. It's the strategy of multiple Investigators camping at The Curiosite Shoppe for several turns while ignoring the gates that are opening, just looking for weapons to hurt the Ancient One, etc. It's the strategy of getting a Bank Loan, giving all your money and items to another Investigator, defaulting on the loan and then taking all your items and cash back.

Getting Blessed just before Yig wakes up, or removing a few more Clue Tokens from the board before Yibb T'Stll wakes up, or going shopping for a Physical Weapon in the few remaining turns before an Ancient One with Magical Immunity wakes up ... they are all sound moves. If you spend the game actually playing the game and then switch tactics at the last minute to give you a better chance of winning ... well I fail to see how anyone can have a problem with that.

I don't know if you ever played the Middle-Earth CCG from I.C.E. so allow me to quickly fill you in on the basic idea ... you went around Middle-Earth collecting resources worth various points, first to 25 points won the game. So you'd play the game with that in mind. But if your opponent's Wizard died during the game, they lose and you win by default. So you'd also bear that in mind, too. You'd try hard to get your 25 points but if suddenly your opponent left his Wizard in a really exposed position, you'd try and kill him. You might be at 22 points, oh so close to winning, but you'd still try and kill the Wizard. To not do so would be stupid - even if you haven't attacked him all game so far. Likewise, you can spend all game trying to close and seal as many gates as possible but if the situation suddenly changes so that you can't achieve that goal before the Ancient One wakes up ... well, what's the point with sticking on a doomed strategy?

And if you're going to ignore The Call Of Cthulhu and other HP Lovecraft works when you go on about sticking with the "thematic" intention of the game ... well, I think you are definitely talking about a different theme to that which most others will be.

Stenun said:

Well said!

I'm shocked - SHOCKED, I say! - to discover that there are AH players who haven't read H.P. Lovecraft's fiction. What are you wasting time with the **** board game for? Go and read the actual stories first! Read every word that Lovecraft ever wrote, then Robert E. Howard and Algernon Blackwood and Arthur Machen and William Hope Hodgson and Clark Ashton Smith and Lin Carter and Ramsey Campbell and August Derleth and (gawd help you) Brian Lumley and then, THEN we can a very serious talk about the theme of this game!

I love the Final Battle. It's brilliant. It's the most savage exercise in optimization that you get in the entire game. Weighing up the odds of what the next Epic Battle card will be, working out who's probably going to be devoured, and so how to re-distribute the weapons. Atlach-Nacha is particularly fun, since it quite often reveals that your fellow players' lives are worth less than a small orange piece of card with '+2 Combat' written on it. Then again, I'll grant you that there's a lot less tension without the Epic Battle cards.

thecorinthian said:

I wouldn't go THAT far.

But I do think it's ... tricky ... to argue against the Final Fight being against the theme of the game. Particularly if you haven't even read any of the short stories upon which the game is based. If you don't like it that's fair enough, no one says you have to. But it is thematic ...

Stenun said:

Too bad that rule has been long since changed. And yes, very familiar with Meccg, my top-2 ccg of all-time (Tolkien fan and daily logged to gccg online version of Meccg).

Stenun said:

You don't know it's a doomed strategy (barring Arcane Insight), you never know what the Mythos cards are going to come up next.

Stenun said:

Just because I don't read HPL/CoC, doesn't mean I don't have a rudimentary knowledge of things. Didn't know thematic meant: must know everything ever said about the theme in question.

Well as your familiar enough with ME:CCG to know the rule has changed, you understand my point. You switch between the different ways of trying to win as the game changes and situations present themselves. It's the same in Arkham Horror. And no, you don't KNOW it's a doomed strategy ... but if you have only three sealed locations, no Elder Signs, no one has 5 clue tokens and there is only one empty space left on the Doom Track ... well the odds are certainly in favour of the Final Fight coming along real soon so surely it makes sense to prepare for it?

I never said you don't have a rudimentary knowledge of things. I just think that, given The Call Of Cthulhu and other various Cthulhu Mythos literature, it is very hard to argue that the Final Fight is not thematic. It is VERY thematic. In what way do you think it is not? What, to you, is the theme of the game? And why?

Stenun said:

Tried to find the thread over on BGG, but couldn't, it talked about Cthulhu getting killed by a boat/ship, how he'd then regen in a matter of minutes. With additional mentions of using nukes vs Cthulhu IIRC as well.

Stenun said:

To me, it boils down to preventing the GOO from ever waking up, arriving in our world, thus saving mankind. Final combat only happens once you fail in this mission. Here my lack of knowledge for the CoC Mythos is a hindrance I'll admit, I don't know how big Ithaqua is, how tough Yig really is, etc. (nor care really, I'm happy enough to lump the GOOs in-game under one banner so to speak).

Dam said:

By WHY do you think that the theme is about stopping the Ancient One from waking up and not about just stopping the Ancient One?

As you said yourself, the story of Call Of Cthulhu details how a boat is rammed into the head of Cthulhu himself and Cthulhu is then drawn back/retreats to R'lyeh. You think Cthulhu would see that as a draw? *g* How about the surviving sailors? For me, stopping the Ancient One - by any means necessary - is the theme of the game as that is what most closely fits the theme of the stories. I am trying to understand why, given that you haven't read the stories, you feel the theme is something completely different.

And for the record, in the Call Of Cthulhu short story I believe the word "mountain" is at one point used in relation to Cthulhu's size ... :-)

Stenun said:

Flashbacks to CoC rpg days remind me it's better to NOT let them wake up .

Also, I can't help shake the feeling that people who prefer to wake the GOO early and gear up for it are like: "Yeah, totally, let's wake him/her/it up first so we can test ourselves against him/her/it! So what if mankind is annihilated IF we lose?"

thecorinthian said:

Umm, because it works well solo?