I read the rules about generating resources last night and read the Lambda cards quite carefully while we were playing and the group agreed that the way these cards read means that having two of them would allow you to generate infinite resources. I'm not sure if I'm missing a rule or a wording here. Could somebody point out for me how I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly or is this actually a thing? Our group agreed not to use it because getting the Death Star II out on turn 1 seemed wrong, but nobody there could see any reason based on the rulebook and on the card itself why you could not use two Lambda shuttles to generate infinite resources by using their reactions to proc off of each other.
Jerjerrod's Task Double Lambda Infiinite Resource Combo?
You are not allowed to use actions in the middle of paying for a card or effect. So while the shuttles do allow you to keep generating resources, you cannot use them alone to bring out the Death Star.
Thank you very much, I had no idea that you could not resolve actions in the middle of paying and, now that I think of it, probably would never have checked as I've never considered a payment to be any kind of phase or state.
EDIT: But wait, the Lambda's ability is a REACTION. So you would use the action on the Death Star and then trigger their reactions in a chain, correct? Unless you also cannot use REACTIONS in the middle of paying for a card or effect.
EDIT 2: Rulebook yields this:
"Unlike interrupts, which resolve before the triggering
condition is completed (and may change the outcome of
the triggering condition), reactions are played after the
effects of the triggering condition have resolved."
So then I guess it depends on what it means for a unit to resolve generating resources. Is the resolve the spending or is it the actual focus to generate or how does it work? Is generating its own step or is it synonymous with instantly spending? Please teach me if you know!
Edited
by HooblaDGN
Generating and spending resources is atomic - you can't split the two. Only after you simultaneously generate/spend can you can clear the two Lambda's. In this way, you can generate a max of 2 resources an infinite number of times, but there's only so many 1 or 2 cost cards in your hand that you'll be able or want to play (once your other resources are used up), meaning there's a practical limit. The 2 lambda combo was a deliberate design feature to power up the DS challenge deck.
Edited by PBrennanThank you. That they cannot be split apart makes sense but I saw nothing in the rulebook itself to explain this. I will let my group know why this card does not work for infinite combos, as we were hopeful it did not.
Basically, it doesn't work because all resources to pay for a card are generated simultaneously. Even if the shuttles can then react and clear the focus off each other that's still too late to allow them to be re-focused simultaneously to continue paying. Still a very good combo for getting out a swarm of the good 2-cost units in the deck, but not game-breaking.
i might be being a bit slow from lack of sleep
but which bit in the rules says that generating resources from multiple cards is all simultaneously ?
and
so if you have one ready Lambda-class Shuttle and one exhausted Lambda-class Shuttle you can or can't use them both to pay for the same card/effect ?
"generating resources
A player generates resources from one of his ready, resource-providing cards by placing a number of focus tokens on the card, up to its resource value. He generates one resource for each focus token placed.
Example: A ready objective card with a resource value of “3” can provide either one, two or three resources towards paying a resource cost. To generate the resources, the card’s controller must place a number of focus tokens (no more than three) on the card, generating one resource for each token placed.
A player may generate resources from multiple ready and resource-providing cards in his play area to gather sufficient resources to pay a required resource cost.
Note: A resource-providing card that has generated resources, will have been given one or more focus tokens, and therefore is exhausted (i.e. no longer ready). A player may not generate resources from an exhausted card.
spending resources
After a player has generated sufficient resources from one or more resource-providing cards, he plays the card he revealed or executes the ability he designated.
The generated resources cannot pay for multiple cards or abilities. Any resources generated in excess of the resource cost are lost.
Example: The active player wishes to play a unit card with a resource cost of “3.” To pay for the card, he generates two resources from a ready objective card with a resource value of “2” (placing two focus tokens on that objective card), and one resource from another objective card with a resource value of “3” (placing one focus token on the card). Though he could have generated two additional resources from the latter objective card, those resources would have been wasted.
Having generated enough resources to pay the unit card’s resource cost, he plays the unit card."
It hasn't needed clarification until this effect came out, and it's since been clarified by the FFG team that this is how the 2 lambdas work (see cardgamedb discussion). Also, the FAQ has a clarifying section on effect resolution which shows that paying the cost (which includes resource generation) is a single step. When combining the two, one can divine that generation and spend is simultaneous!
If you're referring to this cardgamedb discussion
http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12504-major-rules-issues-with-lambda-shuttle/
Then it seems like they're confirming that it IS an infinite combo by the end of page 2. But if the FAQ clarifies then that's enough.
"When a player wishes to play a card, take an action, or
initiate an interrupt or reaction effect, he first declares
his intent. The following steps are then observed, in
order:
1) Check play restrictions: can the card be played, or
the effect initiated, at this time?
2) Determine the cost (or costs, if multiple costs are
required) to play the card or initiate the effect.
3) Apply any modifiers to the cost.
4) Pay the cost(s).
5) Choose target(s), if applicable.
6) The card is played, or the effect resolves.
If any of the above steps would make the triggering
condition of an Interrupt effect true, that effect may be
initiated when that triggering condition becomes true.
If any of the above steps would make the triggering
condition of a Reaction effect true, that effect may be
initiated just after the triggering condition becomes
true."
Sounds clear enough to me. No space for reactions until after card is played and effect resolves.
Sounds clear enough to me. No space for reactions until after card is played and effect resolves.
EDIT: WAIT, NO. I read this wrong. As per this description the Lambda infinite combo works because you can use the reaction just after the triggering condition becomes true.
EDIT2: Or are people saying that there is no reaction window just because Pay the Cost is only listed as one step here?
Edited
by HooblaDGN
EDIT2: Or are people saying that there is no reaction window just because Pay the Cost is only listed as one step here?
The reaction window to generating/spending happens after step 4.
This, and the cardgamedb discussion re-iterates what I said initially ... it's an infinite combo of generating 2 resources after each time you spend, not for generating infinite resources within each time you spend.
Edited by PBrennanYep. This is the way it was explained at Worlds as well. It is an infinite way to generate a pair of resources, not a way to infinitely generate resources.
doesn't that also mean that an interrupt or reaction effect to a focus token being placed will not stop the resource(s) being generated
doesn't that also mean that an interrupt or reaction effect to a focus token being placed will not stop the resource(s) being generated
An Interrupt could in theory, though no card currently has an ability that comes close to that. A Reaction would not.
Rough draft of a sample Interrupt that could:
Interrupt: When one or more focus tokens are placed on target card to generate resources, that card instead generates 0 resources.
(This effect would never see print, but it's an example of how it could be done)