Sure. But what exactly could GW gain from all of this? Or Kings, for what it's worth.

As I said, it seems to be lawyers making themselves look important, nothing more. "Astra Militarium" would be easier to protect than IG, but the term "Imperial Guard" is already so established, it won't go away just like that. Leaving aside the irony in GW sueing others for IP infringement, it kind of feels like a step back that will affect the recognition value of a lot of armies' names.

"Imperial Guard" is a name that, in the tabletop market, has become so closely affiliated to GW that it's hard to think of something else. After about 30 years, however, how many people will know what an "Astra Militarium" is? We still have gamers who are unaware of what the Adeptus Astartes are!

By imperial Law every Governor is obligated to maintain a standing defense force. They might not be called PDF on that planets but that is simply the term you will see in the Archives of the Administratum. The PDFs are an integral part of the imperial society and a Governor that does not maintain the required minimum of defensive forces would be removed just like one that did not pay the tithe for he endangered valuable imperial assets.

Nothing you've said here contradicts what I just said. Every planet (well almost every planet - some worlds don't really have populations so don't have defence forces) has a planetary defence force in some way, shape or form. But there is no such organisation as the "Planetary Defence Force" that exists within the structure of Imperial society.

Remember that the organisational structure of the Imperium is like a big flowchart of galaxy-spanning organisations. So up the top (below the Emperor and the High Lords), you have the three main wings of the Imperium - the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Ministorum. The latter two are responsible for Forge Worlds and Shrine Worlds (respectively), and the Adeptus Terra is further divided into many other organisations (Adeptus Astromonica, Adeptus Arbites, and so on). One of these things within the Adeptus Terra is the Adeptus Administratum, and beneath them fall the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, and so on.

There's no "Planetary Defence Force" box that fits into this flow chart, because the "PDF" isn't an organisation. It's an ad-hoc formation done on a case-by-case planet-by-planet basis, with no generalisation, standardisation or codification between them.

BYE

Nothing you've said here contradicts what I just said. Every planet (well almost every planet - some worlds don't really have populations so don't have defence forces) has a planetary defence force in some way, shape or form. But there is no such organisation as the "Planetary Defence Force" that exists within the structure of Imperial society.

I would not make it dependent on the Flow Charts. Depending on different flowcharts the IG is a direct subordinate of the Administratum without the Departmento as a Station between. These flow charts are more than not abbriviations that also include more than it is shown for it would be to complex. With that interpretation I always view the "Imperial Commander/Govenour" as more than just one man. If we would have a flow-chart about this body there would be also included the PDF. But yea, if we look at a flow chart of the Adeptus Terra we are most likely not able to find the Tax Collector of Hive XY just because he would not fit into that scale. But that does not mean he is not an integral part of the Imperium.

One problem with them going by that name: what do you call individual soldiers? Astartes and Arbites, sure, but Militarium? Doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

Well, I'd say they would be named Miles and Militarius/Milites though that word evolved into the "modern" term militia which is quite something different and would annoy me if associated with he Guard.

But for pseudo-latin... how about Militares, Militariumses, Militaridakkates etc.^^

Though instead of Astra Militarium I would have preferred something like Cohors/Cohorits/Satelles - Imperialis/extraordinarii/decima

The funny thing though is... when we "latinze" everything now... is an Army Group of the IG now official labeled Legion? Finaly they recognize the efforts of the true defenders of the imperium. xD

Hey, some are already wearing that moniker.

Right, those guys.

Well, after that service record they have earned their name. xD

"That sum bad 'oomies! Moa legion than garg beekees! They my grod!"

BTW: Where are those pics from?^^

I would not make it dependent on the Flow Charts. Depending on different flowcharts the IG is a direct subordinate of the Administratum without the Departmento as a Station between. These flow charts are more than not abbriviations that also include more than it is shown for it would be to complex. With that interpretation I always view the "Imperial Commander/Govenour" as more than just one man. If we would have a flow-chart about this body there would be also included the PDF. But yea, if we look at a flow chart of the Adeptus Terra we are most likely not able to find the Tax Collector of Hive XY just because he would not fit into that scale. But that does not mean he is not an integral part of the Imperium.

My point, that you've cleanly sidestepped, is that there is no such organisation as the "Planetary Defence Force" in the same way as there is "The Imperial Guard" or the "Adpetus Mechanicus" and so on. PDF's are planet-by-planet with no standardisation between them. There's no over-arcing Imperial governing body that polices, maintains, organises or structures planetary defence forces, as such the concept of a "PDF" (proper nouns) is a misnomer. How a planet recruits, arms and uses its defence force is completely up to that world, and not some galaxy-spanning organisation.

BYE

My point, that you've cleanly sidestepped, is that there is no such organisation as the "Planetary Defence Force" in the same way as there is "The Imperial Guard" or the "Adpetus Mechanicus" and so on. PDF's are planet-by-planet with no standardisation between them. There's no over-arcing Imperial governing body that polices, maintains, organises or structures planetary defence forces, as such the concept of a "PDF" (proper nouns) is a misnomer. How a planet recruits, arms and uses its defence force is completely up to that world, and not some galaxy-spanning organisation.

To be a part of imperial society something has not to be a galaxy-spanning organization or fulfill heavy standardization unless you want to call some imperial regiments not part of the Guard for the only thing they share in common is the lasgun.

If the administratum keeps check of a governors duty to maintain a defensive force they will fill in the formula and count the regiments organized in the PDF or could be recruited into militias (Even the Gangs are sometimes counted as PDFs). They do not care if those are called "Ludicrus Landforce" or "Elite Wardens". On the Paper they are counted as PDFs. Every Governor has to maintain a PDF equivalent. He might name it after his grandmother, he might equip them with pitchforks but never the less they are an organization on the chart and part of the imperial society.

And about your "over-arcing imperial governing body". There is actually one. The Gouvenor, and the gouvenor is in the responsible to the adeptus administratum. So if we climb up the hierarchy and make things easy the administratums job also includes to maintain the PDFs. They might not directly affect the logistics like they do with the departmento on the imperial guard. But they control the guy that has to "control" the PDFs. So in fact these PDFs or PDFEQ (Planetary Defense Force Equivalents) are some sort of imperial organization.

You know, I think the both of you are kind of talking past each other. In a way, you are both right, and I think it depends on where you place your focus when looking at the PDF and the greater Imperium.

By Imperial decree, every governor has a duty to maintain a Planetary Defence Force. The PDF would thus (officially) belong to the governor. Said governor is an Imperial Commander, and located below the Adeptus Administratum. Thus, one could argue that the PDF belongs to the Administratum via extension over the governor's control, and as the Guard Codex notes, IG soldiers "outrank their counterparts", which means there must be an overlapping hierarchy.

On the other hand, it is also true that the term "PDF" is applied very loosely, and really doesn't mean anything aside from the most basic meaning of the word, without any of the uniformity applied to, say, the already-diverse Imperial Guard. There are no standards in armament, in size, in hierarchy - the PDF may not even be a true military but rather just a bunch of hive gangs or feral clans. Their official connection to the governor is the only link they have to the Imperium at large, and this connection may well only come into being once the PDF is actually mobilised, rather than fighting against one another in internecine rivalries between the local nobility. Indeed, the very same decree which calls a governor to maintain a planetary army explicitly calls only IG troops "Imperial soldiers", and the link that potentially connects the PDF to the Administratum via their Imperial Commander is as flimsy as the connection of any other citizen of the world in question.

For comparison, perhaps it may help to look towards the armies raised and maintained by the colonies of the British Empire.

BTW: Where are those pics from?^^

Errh, this one is ... from the internet! No, really, it just came up on google as I did a quick search on Steel Legion propaganda posters (to accompany my previous post) - I thought it was funny, so I posted it here. The image which this one is a parody is GW artwork for the Steel Legion, though. I think it's from the White Dwarf issues that accompanied the Armageddon 3 worldwide campaign.

The other picture you liked over in the psyker thread is from a deviantArt-ist who goes by the name of Mr. Culexus. He's got a rather simple drawing style, but he is making some hilarious jokes with it. You can check out his galleries here .

Coincidentally, here's a Dark Heresy-inspired one ...

Exactly. Ultimately, anything can be badged as a "PDF" - including the System Defence Fleet; not really relevant to a discussion about the imperial guard, but one advantage that planetary forces have is that they seem to be allowed a combined arms command structure - something which is strictly Verboten for the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy.

And yes, some PDFs put the guard to shame. The Steel Legion is one. The Cadian Internal Guard is another. But they report up to the Planetary Governor and Lord Subsector, not the Departmento Munitorium - which is part the reason they often have wildly varying armaments rather than the standardised lasweapons the munitorium logistics spods would prefer them to carry.

This is one half of the reason Marneus Calgar doesn't get grief from the Inquisition: as a Space Marine, he is - after the Heresy/Scouring Reforms - strictly prohibited from commanding Imperial Army (now Imperial Guard) units.

Technically, however, the Ultramar Defence Auxillia aren't guardsmen. Despite their training, equipment, and the readiness with which they're deployed off-world across Ultramar as required, they're legally considered PDF, who report to the Lord Sector - Lord Macragge. Who, by coincidence,is a legally distinct individual that just happens to occupy the same body as the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.

Utter legalese bull excrement, but apparently enough to mollify the Ordo Astartes. Not that they didn't come down on the Astral Claws like a tonne of bricks when they tried to do the same thing.

And yes, some PDFs put the guard to shame. The Steel Legion is one. The Cadian Internal Guard is another. But they report up to the Planetary Governor and Lord Subsector, not the Departmento Munitorium - which is part the reason they often have wildly varying armaments rather than the standardised lasweapons the munitorium logistics spods would prefer them to carry.

On the subject of the Cadian Interior Guard, they seem to be a special case. I don't think this is discussed anywhere in the original material in great detail, so I'm only going by interpretation here, but for all intents and purposes it seems that, effectively, the Imperial Guard is running Cadia in some sort of direct stewardship? Creed is still an official member of the IG hierarchy, isn't he? Or is his position in the Munitorum's senior staff independent from but compatible with the one of Lord Castellan of Cadia?

From what I've read, 10% of all Interior Guard recruits are transferred into the IG Shock Troop regiments and serve off-world. However, the Shock Troops "regularly" (every few years, I'd assume, given travel times and campaign durations) rotate in and out of the Interior Guard, adding a core of experienced veterans to the Cadian planetary defence whilst also allowing any children born off-world to be transferred into other units or the planetary population. So the CIG really seems like a mix of "traditional" PDF and temporarily, but regularly garrisoned Imperial Guard.

That's just what I'm currently reading out of the available material, though - I'd be curious about other posters' thoughts on the subject, if they have any.

To be fair, I think the campaign against the Astral Claws was the result of a series of violations, including some much more serious offenses. Plus, the Ultras' willingness to let the PDF of the Ultramar system participate elsewhere under the Imperial banner might earn them brownie points with both the High Lords as well as the Inquisition - not to mention the Ultramarines' generally positive reputation!

Wasn't reputation the reason for why it took the IoM so long to slap the Astral Claws, as well? From what I recall, they didn't go rogue overnight, but it was a step-by-step thing.

Here is something I found while doing some research on an unrelated query that I thought might be useful in this thread. This was found at http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Departmento_Munitorum

Hmm, fan art? It does seem logical and, for the most part, consistent with what I've read so far, though.

I'm just not sure how to interpret what the Schola Progenium's relationship is supposed to represent there?

(on a sidenote, the Codex: Eye of Terror even mentioned the Departmento Munitorum having a dedicated medical division - I've never seen that one mentioned anywhere else, however)

• Officio Medicae - The Officio Medicae is the primary arm of the Administratum that deals with public health and medical-related issues in the Imperium, operating government-run medical facilities throughout the galaxy and on many Imperial worlds. In addition, they seem to oversee the management and quarantine of worlds or groups afflicted by plagues, such as those created and spread by Nurgle , the Chaos God of Plague. Like much of the Administratum, it is plagued by bureaucracy and procedure.

The Officio Medicae is what you are referring to Lynata. It is indeed only mentioned directly in the Eye of Terror codex (pages 13-14), and sometimes inferred but never again direclty mentioned IIRC.

The Schola Progenium's position on the chart is less meant to be part of the structure of the Departmento Munitorum, but to show it's connection with raising Military Leaders (and quite potentially hand selecting apprentices to be groomed for the role of Lord Militant). That would be my guess I had to make it (since the Schola Progeniums fall under the control of the Ministorum, and not the Administratum).

Makes you wonder what other departments there might be. Lots of room for speculation!

As far as I see the Imperial Guard, each regiment is very much "isolated" and does not contain much aside from the actual combat troops (in many cases certainly owing to the planet a regiment was raised on), but if the Munitorum organises the addition of individual support elements to the army groups in order to provide these missing capabilities (Enginseers being a prime example), it may serve to add a sometimes critical component and further equalise the military capabilities of the regiments regardless of the tech level of their homeworld.

Imagine, for example, a cartography section, whose members work with the Imperial Navy to produce useful maps for the officers planning a campaign. Or a communications department that is responsible for planning and installing a reliable voxnet capable of withstanding enemy jamming and disruption attempts. The list goes on ...

The Schola Progenium's position on the chart is less meant to be part of the structure of the Departmento Munitorum, but to show it's connection with raising Military Leaders (and quite potentially hand selecting apprentices to be groomed for the role of Lord Militant).

Hmm, interesting idea. Now that you mention it, I do recall progena also being sent to serve as aides in the Munitorum's general staff. I would expect the role of Lord Militant to be pretty much reserved for the scions of nobility, but it's safe to say that their office would have a sizeable posse of attachés and adjutants and so on.

Personally, I'd probably rather place the Schola at the Segmentum Command level, reflecting a greater flow of recruits - but that's just my own interpretation of how the Imperium might run things of course.

@Lynata

Taken from Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer

Ah! Thanks - I didn't recognise it due to the yellowish tint. I actually have Black Library's IIUP as well, but it's been ages since I last read it in full.

I have original IIUP, Damocles Gulf Edition with Tau Propaganda (about how they eat your babies and such), Departmento Munitorum Manual and Imperial Infantryman's Handbook (IIUP+D.Munitorum manual in one book). So that's why I recognize it immediately.

They are good for my OW campaign I'm running

Definitely. I like it for the atmosphere and immersion (even the credits section is entirely in-universe!), and have used the prayers in the back in a game of Dark Heresy, too. Some of the information is incompatible with Codex fluff (and I don't mean the hilarious propaganda ), so personally I'm ignoring those parts, but I would generally recommend both the IIUP as well as the Munitorum Manual to anyone playing a 40k RPG just as a means of "getting into the mood".

Part of me wishes BL would do more stuff like this, though it probably depends a lot on who would do the writing (I was very disappointed with their recent Munitorum e-book series, for example).

Astra Militarium? Star Military?

Hmm... I think if this were to go through it would be revealed as the Imperial Guard's "official name". Same with the Adeptus Astartes and Space Marines. That's fine, but the IG will always be IG to me.

I'm just not sure how to interpret what the Schola Progenium's relationship is supposed to represent there?

Also the supply of stormtrooper, commissariat and similar specialist personnel.

(on a sidenote, the Codex: Eye of Terror even mentioned the Departmento Munitorum having a dedicated medical division - I've never seen that one mentioned anywhere else, however)

The Officio Medicae? Something like that? I remember it being in a few Black Library short stories - mostly those featuring the zombie plague, unsurprisingly.

It's wrapped up in the "Offices Of The" box, I guess - that line item represents several disparate departments under the overall munitorium banner.

On the subject of the Cadian Interior Guard, they seem to be a special case. I don't think this is discussed anywhere in the original material in great detail, so I'm only going by interpretation here, but for all intents and purposes it seems that, effectively, the Imperial Guard is running Cadia in some sort of direct stewardship? Creed is still an official member of the IG hierarchy, isn't he? Or is his position in the Munitorum's senior staff independent from but compatible with the one of Lord Castellan of Cadia?

Lord Castellan being planetary ruler is a non-standard thing for Cadia. Cadia has (or 'had' a planetary governor) - I'm not clear whether Governor Primus is a title, or if the guy's name was Primus, but either way, he was the Administratum-strand ruler and hence had authority over the PDF-equivalent Internal Guard. The Lord Castellan, by comparison, was commander-in-chief of the guard forces deployed to Cadia.

Both of them were killed at the battle of Tyrok Fields by the Volscani. Creed was elected to Lord Castellan, and - this being a "Martial Law" situation (even by Cadian Standards) he was officially installed into the governorship as well (the ranking guard officer can do this with Commissarial approval - I know you're not a fan of Sandy Mitchell's books but that's the other example which springs to mind).

He also kept direct colonel-ship over the 8th, which is why the Cadian 8th is the "Lord Castellan's Own" - the man ended up with so many hats he must look like a walking haberdashery.

Also the supply of stormtrooper, commissariat and similar specialist personnel.

Yeah, I'm not really surprised to see it on the chart at all, just that it's supposedly linked to the Lord Militant rather than having multiple connections to various sub-groups. In essence ... providing orderlies to the chief of staff is probably the last thing I'd think of when considering the Schola's role for the military.

Though, technically, perhaps it would be better not to have it on the chart - after all, it's just a source of recruits, and the Imperial Governors that supply the bulk of troops are not listed either (assuming "planetary level" is referring to warzone operative command rather than civilian administration).

Lord Castellan being planetary ruler is a non-standard thing for Cadia. Cadia has (or 'had' a planetary governor)

Ah, thanks for refreshing my memories - I recall reading about this (Tyrok Fields) in the 3E Guard Codex, but have not had a look at it in a looong time.

In this case, custodianship over the planet does seem to be an emergency powers thing only, and probably not all that special for planets dragged into a large scale conflict.

The connection between the Cadian Shock Troops and the Interior Guard, on the other hand, would remain an interesting and unusual exception from how Guard regiments usually operate, likely because of Cadia's role as a Gateway World. I had assumed that this was the reason for the military leader being governor as well, but as you you've said that's an independent issue.

Hmm... Dunno. The recruits filter into the system wherever they filter into the system, but the actual authority over it may sit with the Lord Commander Militant's office (in the same way that resources and personnel may be received and used from the Adeptus Mechanicus at sector command level or below, but the 'formal' interaction is via the Offices of the Departmento Munitorium).

That kind of makes sense, because most of said recruits will be fed into Guard organisations which sit partially or totally outside the standard guard chain of command.

Having Imperial Guard sector command control the training and deployment of commissarial cadets who are supposed to provide judicial oversight of their own activities doesn't work, for example - but it can't be done at a Departmento Munitorium level because that box-out is essentially an Administratum entity without a practical military/leadership background. Hence it gets "delegated upwards" to the Lord Commander Militant.

I think this should have been done sooner: Everything else follows the established naming scheme, but the Imperial Guard doesn't. It's not going to change anything since the common name will still be "Imperial Guard" (much like Adeptus Astartes and Space Marines), but there will be an enhanced fluffyness.