Hey guys,

I'm new to GMing and had a question:

I know as a GM it's my job to put my foot down and end incessant stuff, but let's say a player wants to negotiate the price of something. He rolls an opposed Negotiation check against the shopkeep and fails. Then another player walks up and says "Let me try", and rolls his own opposed Negotiation check.

Or another example would be examining paw prints in the dirt using the Knowledge (Xenology) check to identify the beast responsible. One guy tries, fails. Another player comes up and says "Ok, I'll try". And so forth until someone succeeds.

Basically, would you let the whole party get a shot at trying to identify the beast or negotiate with the shopkeep? I'd like to think no, seeing as sessions will take forever if we let the PCs do that.

How do you explain narratively that they cannot all attempt? I usually let one guy go, and if someone attempts the same check afterwards, I throw in some random event to distract them and move things along... but I'm just curious if anyone lets their players try "infinite" checks?

What I would do depends on the situation. To identify a creature's footprints? Sure, I'd let them all have a go if they wanted to and brought it up.

To negotiate with a shopkeep? Well, the person is probably going to get irritated with everyone in this party attempting to negotiate the same thing. I'd either let them aid each other and do one roll with a bonus, or if they were all "taking turns" negotiating I'd up the difficulty each attempt to represent the shopkeep getting irritated.

Don't be afraid though to put your foot down and stop multiple attempts by narrating the shopkeep putting an end to the negotiation because she/he's upset with the repeated attempts at lowering the price.

It is pretty simple, do what feels right for the entire group.

What my group tends to do is a single roll unless there is a pressing narrative reason for multiple rolls. Allow other players to assist the roll as normal, but only allow one roll. Just like combat rolls, skill rolls can take a variable amount of time.

For example: The party is shopping for a new gidget. They find one available for sale and begin to haggle. Once the decision to purchase is made by the party, the negotiation can begin. While the PLAYERS may understand that this is a good/poor deal, the CHARACTERS are affected by their negotiating skill and perception at the moment. They think that they are making the best deal possible.

I would lean in the direction of minimizing rolls simply because rolls take up time. Or, if your in a situation were everyone is going to roll, have them all roll at once and simply ask who passed the threshold in question. One of our GMs (we rotate) had an interesting 'assist' mechanic that involved everyone at the table (other then the prime roller) roll a single blue and a black, then add the result in for a negotiation check - because in situations like that, people arn't always helpful!

I only allow one check. It represents all of the "let me try" moments all in one roll. If the roll fails, the the sum total of their approach is failure.

yes, i've always limited this type of thing. i usually address the topic early in a campaign, rather than waiting until it happens, then trying to set limits. that just frustrates players.

jerry has some good points - a lot of it is situationally determined, but i typically don't allow multiple attempts to do the same thing. give in game reasons whenever possible (again, jerry's example of the shopkeeper was great), but don't be afraid to simply say "i'm not going to allow it," simply because that's your rule. As long as you are a consistent GM, i've never seen anyone have a problem with that.

i use creative methods (sometimes homebrewed, depending on system) for assisting checks (quicksilver had an interesting suggestion). i don't allow re-checks unless the situation has changed (for example, if they try to climb a wall and fail, but then go buy a grappling hook, i allow them to try again).

in general, players want to be awesome at everything, all the time. sometimes they need reminders that the rules are not simply there to be a pain in the a--, they are also there to make the game MORE INTERESTING. having to figure out alternative ways to meet their objectives is interesting. so is failure. (think of movie examples: the most interesting parts of the star wars movies are when things go from bad to worse, right? the whole time you're thinking "NOW what are they going to do?!")

I know that if the players have a lot riding on a roll I may tell them ahead of time... "Only one of you should role play this, and roll this." I then allow the other players to help if they want. I try to keep too many of them from rolling because there are enough ADHD players there saying "can I roll again".

It's really important for the story to progress, and for that, the rolls have to count.

One more thing... Don't make them roll for anything they can't afford to loose. It has to be a gate to a different adventure path. If they have to track someone, and they fail, then what? Adventure over, Empire wins? You need to keep that kind of thought in mind.

If they do screw up, keep an open mind to letting them redeem themselves. They need a good reason to demand more rolls when the appointed character fails. This is an issue because they see the roll results. I was quite a stickler on this with the players. On The Wheel (Beyond The Rim) the players spotted a droid go up to their ship. So they decided to look for something, but totally failed. I let one character roll perception, then the other. Then I said no more. When they discovered more entities engaged in bad stuff targeting them, they figured there must be something more to it, so I let them have one more roll. (Beacon transmitter, which they decided to toss in the ocean on Cholgana.)

Definitely limit it. You don't have to restrict them to a single roll, but I'd recommend that less than half of the party be able to attempt any given task. Also, I often add two or more Setback dice (or even upgrade a Challenge die) to any attempt where a previous character has failed, as the problem is "harder than you thought".

Really the only thing a whole party should roll is Cool and Vigilance tests to determine Initiative, even when the whole party is obviously doing something, I streamline the process.

Athletics to escape from pursuit? The lowest Brawn and lowest Skilled take the test, as well as anyone Encumbered.

Vigilance to spot an enemy? Highest Willpower and highest Skilled, presumably they warn the others.

The only things the whole Party rolls are Cool and Vigilance to determine Initiative.

One more thing... Don't make them roll for anything they can't afford to loose. It has to be a gate to a different adventure path. If they have to track someone, and they fail, then what? Adventure over, Empire wins? You need to keep that kind of thought in mind.

This.

And as a corollary, don't be afraid to make them roll for stuff they can afford to lose. My games generally feature slow but steady equipment degradation from failed Mechanics maintenance after heavy fighting, as well as failed Discipline when they're packing in a hurry or under fire. "Where's my backup blaster?" "I thought you grabbed it." "I told YOU to grab it!" "I didn't hear you over the sound of the bombardment!"

Athletics to escape from pursuit? The lowest Brawn and lowest Skilled take the test, as well as anyone Encumbered.

Oh, I'd definitely have each of them roll. The faster character can choose to stay behind with the slower one, but he certainly doesn't have to do so. This applies in vehicle scenes too.

Perception checks we all get to roll for too.

Perception checks we all get to roll for too.

That's one where I specifically do not allow for individual rolls. In every case, I just let the group assemble a pool using Skilled Assistance (highest Cunning, highest Perception) and then add Boost in if additional characters are helping on a Search. For someone using Stealth to approach the group. I just have them roll against the highest Perception pool (with Blue dice on Perception becoming Black dice on Stealth) since it's a;ready so hard to sneak up on anyone.

In most cases I have the character with the best chance roll and others who want to pitch in act as support. In cases like perception checks to see if the group notice they are being stalked then I have them make individual rolls.

Bargaining with a shopkeeper would definitely be one roll. Five people in succession trying to bargain on the same hyperdrive coil is not going to work.

In cases like perception checks to see if the group notice they are being stalked then I have them make individual rolls.

My problem with this is that at least one of them is very likely to succeed, and if they do succeed, it often voids the consequences of failures that the others may have generated. This is why I prefer one 'group Perception' pool.

My default is "never, with caveats". Definitely not for a negotiation session, but before the negotiation roll was made I would explain what the parameters were. "You're negotiating for this speeder bike. He wants 2000, you want to pay 1000. Is there anyone else trained in Negotiation?" If so, I ask the other player how he plans to contribute, and if it's reasonable or amusing then he gets to add a boost die to the first player's roll.

The "with caveats" part is that sometimes, given failure but enough advantages or a Triumph, if the player can make a case for an additional roll for, say, hacking a system, maybe in a different way, then I'd allow it.

I will usually let every person make a check, if it makes sense. Like, paw prints on the ground. It would only take seconds (if it were real life) for a group of 4 people to stand around, in a circle, look down at paw prints and for someone to say "yep, jawas all right".

Just because, in practice, it might take 5 minutes to get through all that with the rolls and discussion doesn't mean it's not something that can reasonably occur.

However, what I don't do is allow 1 person to make multiple checks over and over again. Like, a mechanics check to rip off a transeiver from the ship. "welp, I failed, let me wait a minute and try again". No. The reason for this, IMO, is that the first roll, success or failure, represents your aggregate ability to do said action. if you fail, it means you simply do not have the capacity to do that particular thing. not that you failed your first try.

I will usually let every person make a check, if it makes sense. Like, paw prints on the ground. It would only take seconds (if it were real life) for a group of 4 people to stand around, in a circle, look down at paw prints and for someone to say "yep, jawas all right".

The problem I have with that is you are almost guaranteeing someone succeeds. You might as well just tell them it's Jawas.

I had that problem early on, it is called an assist. one player was basically handing a boost die to everyone saying "I am assisting" Finally stopped it when I asked them "Okay, how are you going to assist?"

Some things like perception checks I have no problem because most often I WANT Them to notice some clues.

Things I've done to limit die rolls/multiple attempts:

• For most rolls, if the group is doing the same task, I make them roll assisted checks with talents as needed.
• If a player failed a negotiation roll, but scored two or more advantage, then the buyer/seller declined to do business/wouldn't budge on the price, but the player could tell it wasn't a hard no and I'd let them try one more time using Charm or Negotiate for the second attempt.
• If multiple players wanted to negotiate, I'd allow an assisted roll, but add setback dice because the buyer/seller doesn't like being ganged up on.
• On a stealth roll, I had the players roll the groups worst agility and their best stealth skill. I figured the best skilled player was trying his best to keep everyone silent, but he could only do so much.
• I use passive checks for Perception. I don't allow someone who failed the passive check to roll unless the information is shared and even then it'll most likely be an assisted check.
• If time is a factor, I tell the players how much time a task takes, with extra successes reducing the amount taken. Example - it will take five rounds to crack the code and open the door; each extra success will reduce that time by one round. I don't tell the players, but I have it written down that the minions will catch up with them in eight rounds if it takes two tries to crack the code.

I wouldn't put the players in a situation where they were forced to need more advantage/successes in order to continue the story though. If it takes five rounds to open the door, but they're going to be jettisoned into space in two rounds, I'd either raise the difficulty, or add setback dice. If they need an item, then the roll isn't to see if they can find it, but how much will it cost the party (yay Obligation).

in general, players want to be awesome at everything, all the time. sometimes they need reminders that the rules are not simply there to be a pain in the a--, they are also there to make the game MORE INTERESTING. having to figure out alternative ways to meet their objectives is interesting. so is failure. (think of movie examples: the most interesting parts of the star wars movies are when things go from bad to worse, right? the whole time you're thinking "NOW what are they going to do?!")

This is something I often find fascinating in RPGS:

Players identify so much with their characters, they forget they are characters in a STORY.

Hardly anything the main characters wanted to do in Star Wars ever happens the way they want it to!

"How we doing?" "Same as usual." "That bad, huh?"

In our minds we want to be amazing masters who succeed at everything, but these role-playing scenarios are SO MUCH more fun when things go horribly wrong!

And for what it's worth, I agree with those who've said this:

Let the players make one roll, assisted if necessary. This roll represents all the times they can reasonably try to do something within a reasonable amount of time.

If the circumstances change or a reasonable amount of time has passed, they may try again, but not right away.

I'm a stickler for this, it's one of my pet peeves.

My PCs get ONLY one check for something they're trying to do outside of combat. In combat, you have multiple rounds to do different things, so it's self-governing.

But like negotions, looking for traps, perception checks, etc, 1, and only 1. At all times, no exceptions.

I'm decently relaxed on this. If it's something you could attempt again, in real life, i'll let you do it, but your failed attempt, and how you failed gets considered and usually increases the difficulty of the check.

If you are doing a negotiation and you fail, but another player wants to step in and try his hand, then i treat the NPC as hostile and there will be a significant jump in difficulty. If a player is trying to pick a lock and fails once, then tries again. I'll tell them that the lock or their tools were damaged and it's going to be harder this time, and if they fail again the lock may become completely broken leaving that door permanently locked.

I'm pretty much whatever the circumstances would allow. How many of us misplace car keys, tear the house apart for them, call to the wife/roommate/whatever "Honey! Where are my **** keys!" and she comes over and picks the up straight away? Multiple rolls when you have plenty of time.

On the other hand, you're late for work and cant find your keys. You get one pass to tear the house apart and then you give up and catch the bus. One roll and you're out of luck if you miss it.

I'm pretty much whatever the circumstances would allow. How many of us misplace car keys, tear the house apart for them, call to the wife/roommate/whatever "Honey! Where are my **** keys!" and she comes over and picks the up straight away? Multiple rolls when you have plenty of time.

On the other hand, you're late for work and cant find your keys. You get one pass to tear the house apart and then you give up and catch the bus. One roll and you're out of luck if you miss it.

Could your first example not be a single assisted check?

I'm pretty much whatever the circumstances would allow. How many of us misplace car keys, tear the house apart for them, call to the wife/roommate/whatever "Honey! Where are my **** keys!" and she comes over and picks the up straight away? Multiple rolls when you have plenty of time.

On the other hand, you're late for work and cant find your keys. You get one pass to tear the house apart and then you give up and catch the bus. One roll and you're out of luck if you miss it.

In this case, if it's necessary for the plot to continue, then the roll isn't to find the keys (the players will find the keys); the roll determines how long it takes. Failure just means it takes the maximum amount of time.

Now if time was that big of a factor, I don't have a problem with everyone rolling separately to see to finds the keys in the quickest amount of time, but it's not that important then just make it an assisted check.