During a recent game, I had one investigator with Agoraphobia (lose 1 Sanity if in a street area during the Upkeep Phase) in a street area after the Movement Phase who had only 1 Sanity. During that Mythos Phase, the Ancient One awoke. After checking the rules, FAQs, and forums, I'm satisfied that she would lose the last sanity during the "Investigators Refresh" step. Knowing that, I have two questions:

1. Since she lost her last Sanity after the Final Battle started, is she devoured? The AH rules states "Any investigator reduced to 0 Sanity or Stamina by the Ancient One’s attack is devoured." Technically, it wasn't the Ancient One's attack that did it, but her Madness card. So, is she devoured, or can I draw another Madness, restore all Sanity, move to Arkham Asylum, and continue battling?

2. When can investigators trade during the Final Battle? Assuming she's going to be devoured because of Agoraphobia during the Upkeep step, can I give away all my items before that takes effect? (We were battling Abhoth, so giving away all items would help my fellow investigators.) The AH rules states "Finally, they may trade items among themselves as if they were in the same location" as the last sentence of the Investigators Refresh step. But then in the AH FAQ, it sates that "Investigators get a full Upkeep Phase." So we get the full upkeep, but when can trading happen? Before? After? Anytime as during the Movement Phase of regular gameplay?

Thanks!

1. I'd say she wouldn't have lost her last Sanity point at all. Final Battle happens in no specific location / street area of Arkham, so an effect saying "lose one Sanity if you're in a street area at the beginning of the Upkeep phase" would not be triggered by a refresh phase in FB. In the same way you'd not lose Sanity for Claustrophobia, and so on.

2. Trading during FB happens during the refresh phase (check pag. 22 of the rules, left column, point 1, Investigators refresh, last sentence)

And finally, regardless of how you want to rule this out, remember you are for no reason allowed to use *any* location / effect on the Arkham board during FB. You don't have the normal phases any longer, so you cannot move or encounter anything (including the Asylum)

Thank you so much for your reply.

And so logical (I'm kind of surprised I didn't realize it): There is no actual "Upkeep Phase" so the effect doesn't trigger. Hmm...may we would have been able to defeat Abhoth afterall...I guess Jenny faked going insane for some reason.

I know trading happens during the refresh step, but I was more concerned of the exact order within that step. Rules state "Finally" so I guess it's the last thing. (But your answer to question 1 makes this one kind of moot.)

DH

Hmmm. Good point about "Finally". It can have a double reading, like "as the last thing to do" or "you also do this".

The Refresh phase as Upkeep kinda bothers me *a lot*. If we read strictly the rulebook, it's worded "as if it were an Upkeep phase", which implies it's not, hence Upkeep effects shouldn't trigger, but then if Upkeep effects re not triggered there wouldn't have been the need to specify you stop collecting money from Retainers for example, and in the same way the original wording of Healing Stone would have been perfect as it was. On the other hand, every Refresh phase you roll for Blessings / Curses, for example, and this is clearly an Upkeep action. Upkeep-triggered Madnesses are in a grey zone, and I'd have preferred to have this specified in a FAQ entry o in the rulebook. Still in case of Agoraphobia and Claustrophobia, we are in a safe zone because we are not properly in Arkham any longer. I'd rule the same way also Paranoia, because you're not properly in the same area (areas are street areas or locations, but if Paranoia is triggered, then at least one of the other two should be triggered as well. The sum of two non-triggering conditions cannot result in a trigger condition). But for example I'd say Addiction is triggered during the refresh phase, because it influences your capacity to adjust skill sliders (and after checking all the Madnesses in the deck, I'd say this one is the only madness triggering during the Refresh phase of FB)

Agoraphobia, Claustrophobia, and Xenophobia shouldn't trigger because you're not in a particular place on the board.

I always play that Paranoia does trigger because there are other investigators with you (unless you're the only one left ). This pretty much makes it a death sentence.

I'm late to the party, as usual, but like Julia et al, I agree that Agoraphobia and Claustrophobia do not trigger, while like Tibs, Paranoia does trigger...good times during FB

Well see now, if you only played with the easiest Ancient Ones and skirted around being challenged in any way, you wouldn't have to worry about the effects of Madness during FB.

I just play as if there is an Upkeep phase at the beggining of every turn of FB, with the exceptions mentioned (Retainers, etc.) So clearly every effect that triggers in Upkeep triggers at every turn. Investigators are "all in the vicinity of one another" so Paranoia would apply (because they can exchange items, so they're clearly close to one another and sticking together). Claustrophobia and Agoraphobia wouldn't apply because they're not in a location or street area anymore (thematically, if one is claustrophobic, he would man the barricades instead of going down to the basement, etc.).

Results in much less brain boil, and in the end, in 95% of cases comes down to the same result (defeat during epic combat), soooo...

Thanks all! So we do have upkeep actions (excluding exceptions). Investigators are not in any board area once FB has begun, so area specific triggers won't happen. Triggers that are dependent on being in the same area as other investigators do happen, because investigators are essentially in the same area.

Why do we have to love games that are so complicated?

Because overly-simplistic games are mentally unsatisfying.