I was just wandering if anyone had worked out what the distance range bands are in 1 inch squares so i can use it with my wotc star wars minis.

i was thinking:

1 square = close (within 1m)

2-10 squares = short (2m-12m away)

12-24 squares = medium (12m-24m away)

25-48 squares = long (25m-48m away)

49+ squares = extreme (49+m away)

characters can move 12 squares per maneuver or 12 meters

does this sound right to you guys?

the book says short is several meters and long is a few dozen meters

(it also states medium is several dozen meters, but clearly thats an error as thats longer then long)

or since the scale is double that of most rpgs should i keep it at a standard 6 square movement, and say that 6 squares = 12 meters and that the models are representations rather then an actual scale?

i think my maths of the meterage is correct as it would mean you can run at max speed 36m i a turn with exerting yourself.

this equates to 3 turns at triple maneuver exertion to run 100m.

so considering a fast 100m sprint is 12 second (world record is under 10 seconds)

that would mean a game turn is roughly 4 seconds

and when we watch star wars we see storm troopers fire blasters roughly every 4 seconds.

We've used the Beginner Box tokens and I draw out a rough map on a dry-erase mat and we move around in that.

We don't measure it and just kinda eyeball it in terms of the range bands. If the tokens are touching, that's "Engaged", if they're like one token's width away it's short, a bit more and it's medium, etc.

Yeah, that's what I do when I use maps and minis - eyeball it. "Eh, that looks like medium, and that's probably long. Two moves will probably put you about there. Shut up and roll the dice". If you like the minutia, knock yourself out - but the game is designed to be vague and abstract, so I wouldn't get bogged down in the details too much.

yeah so you use the representation method.

does anyone try the realistic method? and if yes do you also use 12 squares = a single move action?

I think the math is mostly good, and it's good to have references for everything, but you're gonna give yourself a headache trying to reduce everything to squares and meters. The game wasn't built that way, and I would contend that it shouldn't be played that way lest you miss out on the richness of the narrative opportunities available to you in favor of a (very poor) tactical miniatures experience.

I say the game wasn't designed "that way." If you pay attention to the rules regarding time and distance in structured play, they use phrases like "about" and "around" and "roughly" when describing lengths of time or space. A combat round "can last for roughly a minute or so in time," Medium distance is "can be up to several meters away," and long range is "further than a few dozen meters." (pages 208-209 EotE Core)

(Note that "several" is defined as "more than two but not many," and "few" is defined as "a small number of," further denoting the abstract nature of the game.)

More importantly, note the opening paragraph on page 208: " Rather than have a players attention focused on a grid, counting squares, Edge of the Empire uses more abstract means..." (emphasis mine)

Use the maps, but don't (EDIT: I continue this thought in the next paragraph. I thought I was missing a sentence somewhere but I couldn't find it, lol)

This sentiment is also present in the starship combat rules, page 232.

My advice (actually GM Chris' from a recent Order 66 Podcast episode) is to place your miniatures on the grid lines, or at intersections, on the map. Don't place them in squares. Deliberately ignore the squares. And then eyeball the distance. You will get so much more enjoyment out of the game.

And for goodness' sake, don't treat a round as 4 seconds long as a general rule. It's cool if a round lasts that long, but I wouldn't want to lock your players into a rigid frame of mind like that. An melee attack role, for example, could represent half a minute of frantic action, ducking and parrying, traveling a few meters (still within short range!) with your opponent locked in combat before pinning him against a wall and holding your sword to his throat.

Think bigger, think more abstract, and eschew the grid. You don't need it. And you're better off without it

yeah so you use the representation method.

does anyone try the realistic method? and if yes do you also use 12 squares = a single move action?

There isn't a realistic method. The further you are from something the faster you move towards it. Things get very weird as soon as there are more than 2 models on the board. It can't be realistically simulated.

true but if a group splits up i as a gm would say there are times when that rule can and should be broken, having a change to the extreme rule and making it a player can move 100m every 4 turns will mean if you are on the other side of town say 4k away you are going to take 10 turns of running to get there without wasting strain. and if you are on another planet you cant get there.

RAW allow me to be on Tattooine and in 2 turns be on Hoth with in long range

you need to fabricate your own rules and having an estimate of every 100m you need to travel takes 4 turns or 3 turns at the cost of 6 strain let a gm know when to expect you and a player decide weather to come aid you or even maybe should he slice a speeder and drive to you.

RAW allow me to be on Tattooine and in 2 turns be on Hoth with in long range

First off, the ranges ONLY matter in structured play. And the GM determines when and how those ranges are applied. Extreme range is, I believe, stated as something like "the longest range at which two characters can interact" (I don't have the book in front of me, but IIRC that is the jist). With this in mind, Tatooine is most definitely "outside" of extreme range from Hoth, since the two planets can have no meaningful interacts without the aid of Holonet communication.

How long does it take to get within Long range of Hoth? As long as the GM says.

In the larger picture, we're not playing with computers. We are playing with other people, including a human GM. Even if the rules "allowed" you to go from Hoth to Tatooine in two combat rounds, the GM will say, "No, it's gonna take a bit longer than 2 turns to get to Hoth."

On the flip side, Star Wars travel runs at the speed of plot. In Episode IV, you had the Millenium Falcon in space for just enough time to allow for character development and a quick dejarik game. In the Clone Wars TV series, you had the heroes traveling all over the galaxy in what seemed to be very insubstantial amounts of time.

Did it take hours? Weeks? Who knows. It took as long as it needed to take for the story. Example: "You need an antidote derived from a special flower that grows only on X planet? Okay, X planet is half a day's hyperspace journey. You better hoof it before your partner here dies. She only has 32 hours to live." It could just have easily been "4 week's journey" and "she has 2 months to live."

I am afb for the moment, but keep in mind that range bands recalculate after every action, and there is no strict time period per action.

Most players will only move the 12m (If I was reading your example correctly) every turn if they choose to move. I think creating your own system would be easily done if you want more detailed combats. There have been other threads here that you may wish to peruse.

I am afb for the moment, but keep in mind that range bands recalculate after every action, and there is no strict time period per action.

This is a very good point. An action (I.e. a roll of the dice pool) could represent anywhere from several seconds to several days' (or more) worth of activity. It's rare in structured gameplay to see that kind of time taken into account, sure, but it's not outside of reason.

I am afb for the moment, but keep in mind that range bands recalculate after every action, and there is no strict time period per action.

Yes, thats another good point, not only is spatial relationships not being accounted for but neither is temporal. In a round a character may spend a minute crossing 2 range bands an another may spend 2 seconds and open a door. At the end of the combat it's quite possible that one character spent 20 seconds fighting and another character spent 10 minutes.

This is NOT a simulationist game. It makes no attempt at being one what so ever.

saying it's not a simulationist game is a bit of a joke.... its basicly simulation the star wars universe.

what you mean is it isn't a rule governed game where every action has rules and guidlines, it's a very open to interpretation game.

ultimately i agree that skill checks have no time limits, and you can use disadvantage to say things took a while.

but in combat everyone acts in rounds and as such everyones temporal awareness is synchronized

In combat time is relevant.

and it is only during combat that i as a gm which to use miniatures, to show positioning, work out line of site and obstacles and places to take cover so that i can give out appropriate d6's and allow players to narrate there characters tactics with out every player asking my what's near me, are there tables in the way, can i charge, is there a chandelier in the room etc.

At this point, in my opinion, the best response is--

Best of luck with your games. Feel free to play them however you like.

Thanks!

I only use minis on ungridded maps (or if the map has a grid I ignore them) for the same reasons as Hakon. It's not a tactical game and it just adds more problems then it solves. Time is the important factor, since your action represents the result of a minute rather than a few seconds what square you're in has less relevance than what you've done.

saying it's not a simulationist game is a bit of a joke.... its basicly simulation the star wars universe.

what you mean is it isn't a rule governed game where every action has rules and guidlines, it's a very open to interpretation game.

ultimately i agree that skill checks have no time limits, and you can use disadvantage to say things took a while.

but in combat everyone acts in rounds and as such everyones temporal awareness is synchronized

In combat time is relevant.

and it is only during combat that i as a gm which to use miniatures, to show positioning, work out line of site and obstacles and places to take cover so that i can give out appropriate d6's and allow players to narrate there characters tactics with out every player asking my what's near me, are there tables in the way, can i charge, is there a chandelier in the room etc.

I agree with everything you say here. I just think, somehow, we arrive at different conclusions regarding map grids I use maps about 94.25% of the time (estimated) during combat. But I purposefully eschew the grids and I make every effort to help my players do the same.

And as to time, the main idea to me is that "in a round, everything is happening at roughly the same time." It doesn't mean that every round must be X seconds. It just means that, as you say, everyone's temporal awareness should be synchronized.

saying it's not a simulationist game is a bit of a joke.... its basicly simulation the star wars universe.

Well that went completely over your head. How about this: Since you want to use a grid so much, give XP out based on kills or skill roles and do other things that are not typical of a narrative game, which EotE is, why not play a game that actually has these rules already in it. Most games, including I believe every previous RPG incarnation of the Star Wars already has those rules in it.

RAW allow me to be on Tattooine and in 2 turns be on Hoth with in long range

First off, the ranges ONLY matter in structured play. And the GM determines when and how those ranges are applied. Extreme range is, I believe, stated as something like "the longest range at which two characters can interact"

This is a very important concept to keep in mind. The interaction of distance is the key thing to keep in mind here in my opinion. A couple of examples can showcase its importance;

First, say we are travelling on Endor, and we are moving through the forest to the shield generator bunker doors. The ground is littered with foliage and whatnot, blocking the way. As moving is an action with no roll required (remember, the focus is on fast paced action not "do you trip over your shoelaces" stuff) the distance I can move would be significantly shorter through the vegetation than on the neat "shoot me in the face" path up to the door. Likewise, if I can focus on my feet and move through the foliage I'm faster than if I'm being shot at and have to keep my eyes up. This is why movement is subjective to the GM's determination.

The second example showcases how the range band can be affected. Saw we're on Tatooine. It's a beautiful clear day. We can probably see for at least 2 or 3 miles ... if we're up on a cliff overlooking Mos Eisley, that could go out to 5 miles. It would slow us a little to walk through the sand, but we could probably keep a decent pace. If we look at the same factors on a day with a sand storm, all of a sudden the range bands get all wonky - visibility may be blurry at 5 feet, and we might not be able to see more than 10 at all. A blaster bolt would get weakened or deflected quickly by the swirling sands, and movement would be difficult the deeper into the storm we traveled. The same map would have wildly different move speeds and range bands from merely adding this one change.

I think the best way to determine it would be (if determined to use a map and minis) to use a tape measure. The GM really quickly states for the scene that each range band equals x inches, and that you can move x inches as an action in these conditions or that terrain, or whatever.

I am afb for the moment, but keep in mind that range bands recalculate after every action, and there is no strict time period per action.

Yes, thats another good point, not only is spatial relationships not being accounted for but neither is temporal. In a round a character may spend a minute crossing 2 range bands an another may spend 2 seconds and open a door. At the end of the combat it's quite possible that one character spent 20 seconds fighting and another character spent 10 minutes.

This is NOT a simulationist game. It makes no attempt at being one what so ever.

I would disagree with this interpretation. While the actions are specifically matched to time periods, there is a limit, after all, an action is "Punching an opponent" "Firing a weapon" and maneuvers are "Opening a door" or "Standing Up." As it clearly states that characters are allowed 1 action a turn, 1 manuever (possibly 2 if circumstances dictate) it very clearly lends to a compressed but consistent time allowance.

The important thing is that there is no x seconds variable, just as there is no y distance variables. I see it as being there to allow for a more conditional acceptance of situations to avoid stupid math discrepancies from destroying story like "it'd be really nice if you could reach the enemy before he activates the world shattering device but you're 5 squares away and hte rules state you can only run 3 and push for a 4th" or "you only have 5 seconds in a round and so you can't say - Jimmy look out, Lord Vader knows who you are and is right around the corner! because there's not time in a round for you to voice it all"

I was just wandering if anyone had worked out what the distance range bands are in 1 inch squares so i can use it with my wotc star wars minis.

i was thinking:

1 square = close (within 1m)

2-10 squares = short (2m-12m away)

12-24 squares = medium (12m-24m away)

25-48 squares = long (25m-48m away)

49+ squares = extreme (49+m away)

characters can move 12 squares per maneuver or 12 meters

does this sound right to you guys?

the book says short is several meters and long is a few dozen meters

(it also states medium is several dozen meters, but clearly thats an error as thats longer then long)

or since the scale is double that of most rpgs should i keep it at a standard 6 square movement, and say that 6 squares = 12 meters and that the models are representations rather then an actual scale?

i think my maths of the meterage is correct as it would mean you can run at max speed 36m i a turn with exerting yourself.

this equates to 3 turns at triple maneuver exertion to run 100m.

so considering a fast 100m sprint is 12 second (world record is under 10 seconds)

that would mean a game turn is roughly 4 seconds

and when we watch star wars we see storm troopers fire blasters roughly every 4 seconds.

You can add as much complexity as you want...or you can spend time digging into the rules as written and enjoy the best game ever written by mortal man.

From a practical point of view it isn't to important how many meters one square of your grid covers, as well as how much time actually passes every round. The only important thing is that when using a grid characters one square apart would probably be able to engage in close combat. Therefore the movement per action should not be to slow, but should also be a small enough number to be easily calculated. Movement per action of 4 to 8 usually works quite well. So 6 should be fine.

When I use grids with SWEotE, I also use 6 squares per maneuver and it worked quite well. In my experience grids tend to speed up maneuvering for groups with more than 4 players, as they can already calculate their movement, before its their turn. Maps without grids work equally well, but tend to work better for more experienced players. Just make sure it doesn't become to much of a strategy game. Keep up the action and immersion.

I used 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, rather than 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, for the pattern, but yeah, I find that a minis-based movement mode works FAR better in play. My players grasp it better, we have more tactical description (the movement of the counters results in them better understanding what's where, and thus being able to describe better what they want to do), and it's easier to adjudicate.

Close/Engaged 1 unit

Short 2-4 units

Medium 5-9 units

Long 10-16 units

Extreme A 17-25 (limiting how far weapons can be pushed)

Extreme B 26+ units.

For personal combat, I use roughly 4 units per maneuver, and 3m per unit.

For ground vehicles, I use 100m per unit, and Speed units per maneuver.

For space, I just use units. up to speed units per maneuver.

And one free facing change of 90° per move maneuver.

I opted to keep it simple...

Engaged= adjacent

Short= 5 squares

Medium= 10 squares

Long= 20 squares

Extreme= handy wavy/visual

Speed 6 is the base, silhouette 0s have speed 5, people with flight/aquatic move at their base land speed minus 1. So a Mon Cal can move on land at 6 and in water at 5.

I would disagree with this interpretation. While the actions are specifically matched to time periods, there is a limit, after all, an action is "Punching an opponent" "Firing a weapon" and maneuvers are "Opening a door" or "Standing Up." As it clearly states that characters are allowed 1 action a turn, 1 manuever (possibly 2 if circumstances dictate) it very clearly lends to a compressed but consistent time allowance.

A round lasts any appropriate period of time up to around a minute. A character who is running through long range bands is covering very large distances that would take a minute to cover. Compare this to another character in the same combat who is simply standing up. There is a very large time differential. The game works very much like The Holy Grail where the guy runs at the castle and runs and runs and runs and suddenly zoom, he's there. It does not attempt to accurately simulate how long actions take, it doesn't have set 6 second rounds, the rounds are "eh, 6 seconds, 60 seconds, it's all the same".

saying it's not a simulationist game is a bit of a joke.... its basicly simulation the star wars universe.

what you mean is it isn't a rule governed game where every action has rules and guidlines, it's a very open to interpretation game.

ultimately i agree that skill checks have no time limits, and you can use disadvantage to say things took a while.

but in combat everyone acts in rounds and as such everyones temporal awareness is synchronized

In combat time is relevant.

and it is only during combat that i as a gm which to use miniatures, to show positioning, work out line of site and obstacles and places to take cover so that i can give out appropriate d6's and allow players to narrate there characters tactics with out every player asking my what's near me, are there tables in the way, can i charge, is there a chandelier in the room etc.

I agree with everything you say here. I just think, somehow, we arrive at different conclusions regarding map grids I use maps about 94.25% of the time (estimated) during combat. But I purposefully eschew the grids and I make every effort to help my players do the same.

And as to time, the main idea to me is that "in a round, everything is happening at roughly the same time." It doesn't mean that every round must be X seconds. It just means that, as you say, everyone's temporal awareness should be synchronized.

You might want to read this thread

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/89904-anyone-using-tactical-maps/