I have recently discovered that my understanding of the Force Power Influence Control upgrade and the Talent Overwhelm Emotions interaction was incorrect. I had made the assumption that one could “double dip” and use both of these abilities on the same skill check. I figured one was a Force Power which granted a Power Check while the other was a Talent which added Force Dice to the skill check. However, I checked with Customer Support and Sam said that I would have to pick one of the two abilities to use.

I’m fine with this ruling but it makes me ask the question as to why both abilities exist. The Control upgrade is easier to acquire based on the construction of the trees (30 xp vs 95 xp) if you’re heading straight for the abilities. Also, an argument can easily be made that the Control upgrade is better and affects more skills. With Control each white pip can be spent on a Success or an Advantage, which anyone using Scything Tirade can tell you that the ability to have access to extra Advantages is great to pile on damage against a single opponent. Overwhelm Emotions gives a success or a Failure with white and black pips, depending on which skill you’re trying to use. Granted, for the Scything Tirade example, black pips are used for Coercion and are easier to get on the die, but white pips are a Failure which makes using the talent a risk.

Is there something I’m missing? Is there some reason would want Overwhelm Emotions instead of or in addition to the Influence Force Power Control upgrade? The only reason I can think of is if someone had already bought through the Force Sensitive Exile tree and didn’t want to pick up the Influence power.

Can you paste your question and his answer in here?

Also, Overwhelm Emotions is a nice thing for people who have no interest in purchasing the Influence power. The Influence effects are more stable and predictable, imo. The power is more broadly applicable, you can use Destiny to flip Dark Side points, and don't automatically screw yourself if you get a bunch of light side pips on a Deception check.

I'll echo Kshatriya's comments that Overwhelm Emotions is there for the folks that don't want Influence for whatever reason.

It may also be a distinction that Force & Destiny makes use of, particularly if said book introduces ways to outright negate Force powers but doesn't have an impact on Force-based talents like Overwhelm Emotions.

Another thing to consider is that unlike when using Force Powers, the Overwhelm Emotions talent doesn't cite that you have to suffer Strain and flip a Destiny Point to make use of those Dark Side pips on the Force die. So you could make a Coercion check with Overwhelm Emotions, and make free use of any Dark Side pips that show up, where trying to do the same with Influence's Control Upgrade requires you to convert those same pips into usable Force points.

Can you paste your question and his answer in here?

Sure can.

Rule Question:

Is there "double-dipping" in EotE for talent Overwhelm Emotions and Force Power Influence Control upgrade for adding white pips to some skills? Overwhelm Emotions adds a Force Die per Force Rating while Influence allows an Influence Power check as part of the dice pool.

Am I correct with my understanding of how these work with Force Rating 1? If I roll a Coerce check I add a force die (from Overwhelm) as well as a power check (from Influence). The net result is a skill check with 2 force dice.

Rule Answer:

No, you cannot "double dip" in this case. You must choose one or the other.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart

Senior RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

Without my CRB on hand to check,

Overwhelm Emotions doesn't specifiy that it must be the Force User's own social check. The Control Upgrade in the Influence tree reads

When making a Coerce, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check, the Force user may roll an Influence Power check as part of his dice pool....

Implying to me that it only counts on checks he is making.

Overwhelm Emotions could potentially be used on a party member's check. You could argue that Overwhelm is an enhancement of Sense Emotions and therefore may not be applicable to a party member's social check, but it costs less than Sense Emotions and it oculd be debatable if it's really an enhancement or a stand alone talent. But neither seems to explicitly state they must be used on the Force user's checks while the Influence Power is explicit about who's check it is.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions on it at any rate.

Overwhelm Emotions' full Talent chapter write-out starts with "When the character performs…" so that's out.

Also effects that apply to allies and not oneself usually explicitly say so. E.g. Command, Heightened Awareness.

You could argue that Overwhelm is an enhancement of Sense Emotions and therefore may not be applicable to a party member's social check, but it costs less than Sense Emotions and it oculd be debatable if it's really an enhancement or a stand alone talent.

I wouldn't be so confused if Overwhelm really did cost less. Sure, the talent is only 10 xp while the power upgrade is 15 xp, but the position of Overwhelm in the tree makes it expensive and time consuming to acquire. Granted, you'll be in the neighborhood after picking up the extra Force die talent, but it's still out of the way.

I suppose the best we'll come up with is that Overwhelm is more passive while the Force Power is more active. As well as the roll playing aspects of the talent being an agressive change to the target's mentality while the power is more subtle. I'll probably still pick up Overwhelm for my character eventually. It seems fitting for my character to have access to and I'm aiming to pick up Sense Emotions right next to it anyway, but it would be on an odd week when I feel like blowing 10 xp on something I'll never use.

Really I like Influence/Overwhelm as a social boost for my FS smuggler character who is more interested in Sense and Enhance than buying into a whole new power.

I'm actually a bit disappointed to find that in the talent write-up. I only had the PDF of the trees on hand at the time and thought the potential was pretty neat. Oh well.

You could argue that Overwhelm is an enhancement of Sense Emotions and therefore may not be applicable to a party member's social check, but it costs less than Sense Emotions and it oculd be debatable if it's really an enhancement or a stand alone talent.

I wouldn't be so confused if Overwhelm really did cost less. Sure, the talent is only 10 xp while the power upgrade is 15 xp, but the position of Overwhelm in the tree makes it expensive and time consuming to acquire. Granted, you'll be in the neighborhood after picking up the extra Force die talent, but it's still out of the way.

I suppose the best we'll come up with is that Overwhelm is more passive while the Force Power is more active. As well as the roll playing aspects of the talent being an agressive change to the target's mentality while the power is more subtle. I'll probably still pick up Overwhelm for my character eventually. It seems fitting for my character to have access to and I'm aiming to pick up Sense Emotions right next to it anyway, but it would be on an odd week when I feel like blowing 10 xp on something I'll never use.

This is why I figured it could be used in more creative ways than just individual FSE checks. Sense Danger, Balance, and Uncanny Senses are all good talents worth grabbing, meaning that Overhelm Emotions is a 25XP trip. For that much I'd expect a bit more utility.