Part of me says that "required to do your job at all" gear should come as part of the specialization if taken at chargen. Mainly because I see the starting credits before +Obligation as too low for some concepts. But doing so would necessitate compensation to characters who don't have "required to do your job" gear, because that's only fair. I haven't run it this way, I just see it as a developer failing by virtue of some characters having required purchases to function in their role, where others do not.

I'm also responding to the notion of astromechs getting built-in gear for free by virtue of being astromechs, and my response to that is that fairness dictates that if astromechs get a toolkit (for example) for free then everyone should get 350c value "for free" to keep the whole play group balanced.

I agree that if you're giving free beginning gear to a player, everone should get something of equivalent value to balance it. But at that point, why not just let everyone buy their gear with the starting credits and use obligation if they want more that their 500 cr can afford? Sure, some items required for the different specs take a large chunk of that, the slicer gear is a good example. If you have a slicer and he/she only has the slicing tools, that just means they've kept their nose clean and haven't taken the risks that other people have (those with higher obligation).

The bolded part was my main point. I was responding to Fg's statement about astromechs having built stuff in, and just saying that if one character gets "free" gear, so should everyone.

I've mentioned how I feel starting creds before +Obligation are too low before, particularly in light of some specs having required gear to do their jobs, while other specs don't really have a definite set of "tools for the job" for their particular career shtick just to function. I'm starting to see in play though how quick one can get credits, so this is less of an issue than it used to be for me.

So you're saying that career specializations should provide players with the basic gear?

A tech gets a toolkit pro bono and the slicer gets the slicer gear gratis?

What does the gadgeteer get?

What does the politico get?

What does a scout get?

Those questions make me think it's better to stick to RAW at creation. Then the players make the choices about what is important to their character.

The bolded part was my main point. I was responding to Fg's statement about astromechs having built stuff in, and just saying that if one character gets "free" gear, so should everyone.

I've mentioned how I feel starting creds before +Obligation are too low before, particularly in light of some specs having required gear to do their jobs, while other specs don't really have a definite set of "tools for the job" for their particular career shtick just to function. I'm starting to see in play though how quick one can get credits, so this is less of an issue than it used to be for me.

Um...at no point did I suggest that any equipment should be free of charge. In fact, earlier in the thread I was arguing very much the opposite.

Built in to a fictional model off of an assembly line does not mean free of charge during character generation. You may wish to re-read some of my earlier posts in this topic.

An astromech also comes off the assembly line with abilities of Br: 1 Ag: 1 In:2 Cn: 2 Wp:1 Pr:1 and their skills are set at Astrogation: 3, Computers: 3, Cool: 2, Mechanics: 2, Piloting(Space): 2

So I guess as long as someone wants to say that they should get free equipment since the astromech starts with equipment then they can start with the default characteristics and skills as well. I hope they didn't want anything more for their character.

The bolded part was my main point. I was responding to Fg's statement about astromechs having built stuff in, and just saying that if one character gets "free" gear, so should everyone.

I've mentioned how I feel starting creds before +Obligation are too low before, particularly in light of some specs having required gear to do their jobs, while other specs don't really have a definite set of "tools for the job" for their particular career shtick just to function. I'm starting to see in play though how quick one can get credits, so this is less of an issue than it used to be for me.

Um...at no point did I suggest that any equipment should be free of charge. In fact, earlier in the thread I was arguing very much the opposite.

Built in to a fictional model off of an assembly line does not mean free of charge during character generation. You may wish to re-read some of my earlier posts in this topic.

I was referring to Fgdsfg's posts, not yours. Apologies for the confusion.

The bolded part was my main point. I was responding to Fg's statement about astromechs having built stuff in, and just saying that if one character gets "free" gear, so should everyone.

I've mentioned how I feel starting creds before +Obligation are too low before, particularly in light of some specs having required gear to do their jobs, while other specs don't really have a definite set of "tools for the job" for their particular career shtick just to function. I'm starting to see in play though how quick one can get credits, so this is less of an issue than it used to be for me.

Um...at no point did I suggest that any equipment should be free of charge. In fact, earlier in the thread I was arguing very much the opposite.

Built in to a fictional model off of an assembly line does not mean free of charge during character generation. You may wish to re-read some of my earlier posts in this topic.

I was referring to Fgdsfg's posts, not yours. Apologies for the confusion.

Ah, gotcha.

So you're saying that career specializations should provide players with the basic gear?

A tech gets a toolkit pro bono and the slicer gets the slicer gear gratis?

What does the gadgeteer get?

What does the politico get?

What does a scout get?

Those questions make me think it's better to stick to RAW at creation. Then the players make the choices about what is important to their character.

I've addressed this. Not every career has clear-cut gear needs. But some obviously do have clear-cut gear needs. In those "no obvious stuff needed" cases like you mentioned I'd just give them more money, equivalent to the value given to necessary gear in the "clear cut" careers, usually around 300-400c.

I think there is a happy medium where you can make allowances based on the narrative, without giving a whole load-out of gear for free.

We have a droid character, who bought the blaster carbine that makes up his left arm, as well as the secret compartment (utility belt) that he can hide stuff in. At the same time, when he cuts loose with Scathing Tirade, it is filled with loud klaxxons that disorient and frighten his opponents (free).

Also, handing out free gear to PCs at char-gen is a bad idea. Players need to feel like they can't buy what they need to keep pressure on them to take Obligation. Letting go of that weakens one of the most important themes of this game.

We have a droid character, who bought the blaster carbine that makes up his left arm, as well as the secret compartment (utility belt) that he can hide stuff in. At the same time, when he cuts loose with Scathing Tirade, it is filled with loud klaxxons that disorient and frighten his opponents (free).

A good descriptive use of the Coercion skill being used to frighten opponents.

Edit - Whoops, or Scathing Tirade. It helps to read.

Astromechs already start with a Mechanics Kit. The same way that any other character starts with their starting gear. By buying it with the starting credits. Those credits don't represent a shopping trip right before the game starts, that's just saying "this is the value of the things I have" and starting from there. Starting credits are the same idea as starting xp, they are there to represent what a character starts with. Droids start with a different statline and more xp, as well as getting more class skills. That's all more than enough to build an astromech droid.

And this is my point. An Astromech Droid may come off the assembly line with an Aurodium ingot in their exhaust port for all I care but their not PCs. A PC Droid gets created by the character creation rules in the RAW just like any other PC does, their not built in a factory and then modified to be a PC. If you want an R3 Unit with a basic blaster then you buy a holdout blaster and equip it for your PC. If you want a Med/Mech/Slicer/Pole Dancing kit they you buy it just like any other PC has to. This doesn't mean an Astromech Droid doesn't have a manipulator or can't Slice it means they don't have a Mech Kit or Slicer Gear, or a Comlink for that matter. You are creating a character not purchasing a Droid from a dealership.

Saying that Astromechs are not PCs are like saying that Trandoshans aren't PC:s. Part of character creation is choosing your species, and part of the droid species is your choice of what kind of droid you want to make - Astromech being one of the suggested options.

Again, I don't see what's not computing for you here. You're basically saying that even though you're choosing to be an astromech, you're not an astromech. Would you argue the same for Trandoshans, or any other species? Again, are you going to argue that Trandoshans have to purchase IR-Goggles to see in IR, even though it's plainly stated that they can, and so on?

An astromech also comes off the assembly line with abilities of Br: 1 Ag: 1 In:2 Cn: 2 Wp:1 Pr:1 and their skills are set at Astrogation: 3, Computers: 3, Cool: 2, Mechanics: 2, Piloting(Space): 2

So I guess as long as someone wants to say that they should get free equipment since the astromech starts with equipment then they can start with the default characteristics and skills as well. I hope they didn't want anything more for their character.

I think the point that people take issue with is you're advocating for free gear (which is worth most of one's starting credit allotment) just because of your "species" concept.

@fg: Dude, you really seem to be incapable of having a reasonable conversation about this. Why not lay off it?

I think the point that people take issue with is you're advocating for free gear (which is worth most of one's starting credit allotment) just because of your "species" concept.

@fg: Dude, you really seem to be incapable of having a reasonable conversation about this. Why not lay off it?

I think there is a happy medium where you can make allowances based on the narrative, without giving a whole load-out of gear for free.

We have a droid character, who bought the blaster carbine that makes up his left arm, as well as the secret compartment (utility belt) that he can hide stuff in. At the same time, when he cuts loose with Scathing Tirade, it is filled with loud klaxxons that disorient and frighten his opponents (free).

Also, handing out free gear to PCs at char-gen is a bad idea. Players need to feel like they can't buy what they need to keep pressure on them to take Obligation. Letting go of that weakens one of the most important themes of this game.

It's not really unbalanced, especially when you consider how relatively easy it is to get credits in the game (depending on the game, of course; but simple thievery can get you pretty far, depending on what you steal), and it would just be strange to have them starting without those things, being unable to do quite basic things.

@fg: Dude, you really seem to be incapable of having a reasonable conversation about this. Why not lay off it?

If you really take issue with what he says, just add him to your Ignore list. That way, you can read through a thread and just skip over his posts.

I guess the point would be for an astromech PC to have built-in tools, but they don't count as being "tools for the job" or helping with Mechanics-related rolls (like the purchasable toolkit)? Just pure fluff?

And this is my point. An Astromech Droid may come off the assembly line with an Aurodium ingot in their exhaust port for all I care but their not PCs. A PC Droid gets created by the character creation rules in the RAW just like any other PC does, their not built in a factory and then modified to be a PC. If you want an R3 Unit with a basic blaster then you buy a holdout blaster and equip it for your PC. If you want a Med/Mech/Slicer/Pole Dancing kit they you buy it just like any other PC has to. This doesn't mean an Astromech Droid doesn't have a manipulator or can't Slice it means they don't have a Mech Kit or Slicer Gear, or a Comlink for that matter. You are creating a character not purchasing a Droid from a dealership.

Saying that Astromechs are not PCs are like saying that Trandoshans aren't PC:s. Part of character creation is choosing your species, and part of the droid species is your choice of what kind of droid you want to make - Astromech being one of the suggested options.

Again, I don't see what's not computing for you here. You're basically saying that even though you're choosing to be an astromech, you're not an astromech. Would you argue the same for Trandoshans, or any other species? Again, are you going to argue that Trandoshans have to purchase IR-Goggles to see in IR, even though it's plainly stated that they can, and so on?

I'm sorry but the reason you're not getting it is because you're not reading what I'm writing. I never said Astromech Droids aren't PCs, I said non-Player Character Astormechs are not PCs . When I wrote Astromech Droid in that sentence I meant a non -PC Droid, I have said repeatedly that PCs are created using the character generation rules and regardless of what race they are they start with nothing other than what is written in those rules under their particular race. Anything you want your PC to have or know must be created using that system, you get nothing for free except what is explicitly stated in the RAW. Droids are no different in this regard, you do not start as a basic Astromech Droid then modify it into a PC, you start with an unnamed, unstated nothing Droid and then you create a character from that which could be an Astromech Droid when you finish but is only that because you created it from the ground up and called it an Astromech Droid.

@fg: Dude, you really seem to be incapable of having a reasonable conversation about this. Why not lay off it?

If you really take issue with what he says, just add him to your Ignore list. That way, you can read through a thread and just skip over his posts.

Why? I enjoy his other posts. No harm in being honest to each other though is there?

Astromech can't stop a jawa with a screwdriver. "Oh hello there little droid...what you have no master...awwhhh..follow me little droid, everything is going to be alright!" Two days later....your PC droid is now a toaster.

I guess the point would be for an astromech PC to have built-in tools, but they don't count as being "tools for the job" or helping with Mechanics-related rolls (like the purchasable toolkit)? Just pure fluff?

Of course. You may or may not have the exact thing you need, but at the very least, you'll be able to do basic mechanics checks. It escapes me at present just exactly astromechs are equipped with, it's a whole bunch of minor things.

Edit: It also depends on model. I doubt Agromechs comes with much, short of a rake, I guess.

I'm sorry but the reason you're not getting it is because you're not reading what I'm writing. I never said Astromech Droids aren't PCs, I said non-Player Character Astormechs are not PCs . When I wrote Astromech Droid in that sentence I meant a non -PC Droid, I have said repeatedly that PCs are created using the character generation rules and regardless of what race they are they start with nothing other than what is written in those rules under their particular race. Anything you want your PC to have or know must be created using that system, you get nothing for free except what is explicitly stated in the RAW. Droids are no different in this regard, you do not start as a basic Astromech Droid then modify it into a PC, you start with an unnamed, unstated nothing Droid and then you create a character from that which could be an Astromech Droid when you finish but is only that because you created it from the ground up and called it an Astromech Droid.

Ah, no. I realize that your attempting to offend, but I do read what you're writing. And the bolded section appeared exactly zero times. Funnily, you attempt to be unable to read the rules yourself. Not only do they list astromechs as a viable suggested choice - with all that implies - but it even specifically mentions it's wide range of tools.

The disconnect here lies not with me not reading your posts, it lies in me reading the Rules As Written, not by your own interpretation. Just as Astromechs come off an assembly line, and have certain characteristics, so are humans born and come with theirs, or rodians.. hatched.. I guess? I honestly don't remember.

Your choice of species is part of character creation . On creation, you are an unnamed, unstated nothing - then you choose what you want to be. At that moment, you are a character same as any other, and with your choice of Species, your character is that species, whether it's a gungan, a trandoshan or a rodian or a droid, droideka, astromech or whatever kind of droid your GM is fine with, with a listed number of suggested droid types.

Astromech can't stop a jawa with a screwdriver. "Oh hello there little droid...what you have no master...awwhhh..follow me little droid, everything is going to be alright!" Two days later....your PC droid is now a toaster.

Not if I stab them to death with my trusty arc-welder and have my B2 battle-droid ("B2-FU") beat their heads in with a wrench.

It has been done! I'm not afraid to do it again! I've got a whole sand crawler parked on Tattooine!

Sigh...

I guess the point would be for an astromech PC to have built-in tools, but they don't count as being "tools for the job" or helping with Mechanics-related rolls (like the purchasable toolkit)? Just pure fluff?

Of course. You may or may not have the exact thing you need, but at the very least, you'll be able to do basic mechanics checks. It escapes me at present just exactly astromechs are equipped with, it's a whole bunch of minor things.

I thought to have the "right tools for the job," in some cases needed to even attempt a check, you need tools that grant a mechanical bonus.

Though I wouldn't disallow a check without the "right tools," it'd probably be harder and/or upgraded though.

I agree there are some fair arguments for balance, the fact is that astomechs already should have a leg down on many members of the party from the start (can't talk, no thumbs, can't hold weapons) so there really should be more leeway allowed especially in a game that has only one dice that actually deals in numbers and the rest being success, failure, ect. A lot of gear can be said to be flavoring and I allowed the astromech player of my party a bit more starting gear then usual. It really hasn't unbalanced this game as the game doesn't have standard balance from all the narrative aspects. A decent GM should be able to handle a fair and reasonable gear that comes integrated into a droid. And for the one guy I read who said wookiepedia isn't a game aid. This is the star wars universe, not some homebrew universe and I as a GM like that universe and am happy to let my players do things like play droids that have built in gear they don't have to buy... mind it I'll probably start them with no credits anyway but still.

Language barriers are said to not be a thing unless plot-relevent (e.g. Ewoks) and there's no reason that build-in manipulating pincers should not function as "hands" for picking up items or weapons.

I think this whole discussion could easily be solved if FFG did a splat book with an astromech droid sub-species (like they did with Corellian humans but making more sense). The droid "species" does, after all, have the most sub variations and then these things can be worked into the balance. I do think the RAW is a bit off for droids (though I can't put my finger exactly where) and sub-droid write ups on the common variations may take pressure of the character creation process. I'd rather have that than another human variation.