I was thinking: FFG introduced us with the gate bursts, which can completely turn the game around. So why not have a gate sizzle? The idea is simple: Gate sizzles would be colored in blue. If a gate sizzle opens on an empty location, it opens as normal. If it opens on an elder sign, instead it doesnt. However, if it opens on an open gate, it replaces the open gate. No monsters are returned to the cup as a result of the gate being discarded, no doom token is added to the track as a result of the new gate opening, no monster appears on it and there's no gate surge. Think about it: You think you're relatively safe in your other word, awaiting to come out and seal the gate, when all of a sudden all hell breaks loose: A gate sizzle opens on top of your only way back home, replacing it with another gate. I'm actually surprised FFG hasn't thought about it before. Gate bursts came to show us that even elder signs aren't safe. Gate sizzles can show us that nothing is safe, as it should. What do you think?

I think it's unnecessary, and particularly against Yog-Sothoth or Yig it would be a big problem. Not that that's a bad thing. But reducing the monster surge effect would kind of go against the rising terror level, which players have complained about not being active enough.

I would probably call them "gate shifts" then.

Well gate bursts don't cause monster surges either. Why? to balance them. Gate sizzles or shifts if you insist would way too painful if they'll create a monster surge in addition to replacing the gate.

Also, I believe gate shifts should place 2 clue tokens, just like gate bursts.

So then there would be no more monster surges at all? Personally I think the mechanic of monster surges is much better than just replacing the open gate with a different one. Though I could see the fun of doing *both*, since it would sometimes be a bummer for an investigator who happened to be in that OW when it gets replaced. But you need to have the monster surge as well.

Sothis said:

You misunderstood. Gate shifts will not replace the regular mythos cards just as much as gate bursts doesnt. Regular=white, Burst=red, Shift=blue. Understand?

Oh I see. Well I think that would make the game significantly easier, because anything that results in a mythos phase with no doom token or gate opening is usually a good thing. Even monster surges are welcome breaks from real pressure. These gate shifts would add mythos cards that posed little to no threat (it's only a problem if someone happens to be in that OW at the time).

But if you're looking to reduce the game's difficulty a bit, that would certainly work.

Sothis said:

are you high? as I said, if a gate shift opens on an empty location, a gate opens, a doom token is added and a monster is spawned. The only difference gate shifts has over regular mythos is that instead of a monster surge the gate is replaced. Reduce the game's difficulty? lol? most of the time there's no more than one type of an other world in play, so if you're in it, expect to be lost in time and space. I think you're seriously underestimating gate shifts.

Now now, no need to be rude. Since they still open gates normally it's not that much easier. I didn't notice that part.

No, no, Sothis, you were right! Just, for the wrong reason! Maybe you're so high you didn't notice your own correctness. Kroen, you must also be smoking some real sticky stuff, if you think that one guy being LiTaS is worse than a doom token or a monster surge.

The way I figure it, having one investigator LiTaS is a downer, but that's the worst thing that will usually result from a gate shift, so all the shift costs the group is two or three 'player-turns' (one guy wasting a turn or two in the OW then getting Lost). Meanwhile, a Mythos phase has gone by in which neither a doom token nor a monster surge has occured - so the number of player-turns gained is equal to the number of players, which will nearly always be a net gain (in my world, anyway). An actual gate shift, as you've explained it, is a good thing. It buys time for the investigators. It doesn't advance any of AH's 'game over' clocks.

The obvious answer is that the gate shift SHOULD cause a monster surge.

If there's a seal at the location - nothing happens.

If there's no gate at the location - a gate opens as normal.

If there's already a gate at the location - it's replaced AND a monster surge occurs.

This way, the gate shift is just a little extra thing which screws with the investigators from time to time. I'm in favour of things like that - especially since all it involves is changing the colour of one box on a few cards.

That's what I meant in my first post. Why not have the gate shift plus a monster surge? The gate shift isn't a huge deal, as explained above. (Although once in a while it might get you at just the right time, preventing a crucial or even final seal. But this will be rare.)

but... but gate bursts don't cause monster surges too

Alright then, how about this:

When a Gate Shift is drawn:

Location is empty: A gate opens at that location, a doom token is added, and a monster is spawned.

Location has an elder sign: No gate opens.

Location has an open gate: The gate is discarded and replaced with another gate. No monsters are banished as a result of that, no monster is spawned on the newly-opened gate, but a doom token is added.

Also, in any of the cases, All Aquatic monsters move .

Gate bursts don't cause monster surges because they are horrible enough already. Destroying a seal is awful.

The new version (gate is replaced and doom token is added) means you get less monster surges in favor of more doom tokens. Again this throws off the balance of the game a bit, but not horribly. But personally I don't see why you'd want to do this. As Tibs pointed out the terror track is usually too inactive. I love monster surges because without them there are literally only a handful of monsters out at any given time. Plus they're a great relief when you're praying that you'll skip a doom token/gate opening. I don't want them to be even more rare.

So it will work the way you describe. But the way corinthian and I suggested works also *and* doesn't change the current balance of gate opening/doom tokens/monster surges. It just adds your gate shift idea into the mix without disrupting the balance. Seems much better.

I think you guys are all high. Gate burst cards can still cause monster surges. But not when they're bursting a seal, only when they open on locations that already have open gates.

They're just like normal mythos cards, except: 1) they remove seals if they open on them; 2) all flying monsters move, regardless of their symbols. Monster surges are still allowable--they're often a welcome alternative to actually losing a seal.

He meant they don't cause monster surges in addition to destroying a seal. We had suggested his gate shift do a shift *and* a surge.

Also corrected your statement:
"they're always a welcome alternative to actually losing a seal."

kroen said:

Gate bursts don't work the same way as gate shifts should. The 'special effect' is triggered by a different condition. A gate burst is a completely normal gate-opening UNLESS it happens where there's a seal - in which case it naturally doesn't cause a monster surge, because the conditions for a monster surge are something else entirely.

Whereas a gate shift seems to 'overlap' with the normal conditions for a monster surge, so it would make some sense for a monster surge to occur at the same time. And like I said: regardless of how consistent the ability is with the exact rules structure of gate burts, gate shifts should clearly cause monster surges (or, I don't know, do sometihng else bad) because otherwise they're basically a free holiday for the investigators!

And what's this about aquatic monsters? That's basically, what, skeletons and moon-beasts? Ok, so we're about to get Innsmouth, and that's sure to have more, but seriously, right now, aquatic monsters are just about the most low-impact thing there is. Also, there's a point to all flying monsters moving, because when a flyer moves, it's certain to land on an investigator (or not move at all). Designating aquatic monsters is pointless - surely in nearly all circumstances they're just going to move along black/white borders like any other monster would, at which point you might as well say 'all hexagon-symbol monsters move' or whatever.

Wait, what? When I said gate bursts don't cause monster surges I meant that if a gate burst opens on top of an existing gate there's no monster surge. Don't tell me I've been playing wrong all this time...? I was sure it only makes sense, as it's a way to balance them. Otherwise, why would the rulebook(s) even bother stating it doesn't cause a monster surge? why does en elder sign exploding would cause a monster surge in the first place? elder sign=//=open gate. This doesn't make sense.

Afraid to tell you, you have been playing it wrong.

The "doesn't cause a monster surge" part really means the obvious: When an elder sign gets crushed, there's no additional monster surge to it. If a gate burst wants to open on a location open already, however, the usual surge occurs.

Your games against Atlach-Nacha must have been pretty lame....

Yeah, your interpretation is wrong I'm afraid Kroen, although now that I look at it, the rule is pretty confusing. It does specify that gate bursts on Elder Signs don't cause monster surges, when really there's no reason to believe that they would anyway!

When a gate burst lands on a seal, it removes it, opens the gate (but adds no doom token), and all flying monsters move. That's it. Otherwise, a Mythos card with a red gate box is exactly the same as any other Mythos card. It can open gates on empty locations, and causes monster surges, just like anything else.

Obviously the designers were worried that people would be confused about exactly how this works, so they tried to clarify it and...made things worse.

Vitus_Prem said:

First of all, I don't have KH. You would know that if you'd bothered yourself of reading my sig. Second, a "usual surge" is when a gate opens on another gate. There's no reason to believe that a gate that opens on en elder sign would cause a monster surge. No reason at all .

kroen said:

Take a look at my signature and know: I don't care about signatures. Much too spammy.
And yes, there is no good reason to think a bursted gate would cause a monster surge. They wrote it anyway. Could have added that a gate burst sucks in investigators standing at the location while it bursts, too.

Never said the part was written good, just told you how things are: gate bursts do cause monster surges if they occur on gates already open.

kroen said:

No offence K, but how much attention do you think we pay to your sigs?

I assumed that since you knew about gate bursts, you had the requisite rules. Certainly the burst rules have been distributed in fan-made rules summary sheets and that type of thing, so even if you didn't have KH, it wasn't particularly far-fetched that you'd have the rules.

Anyway, surely there's no more debate about how gate shifts should work now?

If there's no gate: a gate opens (as normal).

If there's a gate: a monster surge AND the gate is replaced by another random one.

If there's a seal: nuttin' happens (as normal).

Gate shift is a good term. This type of event could also be called a 'gate flux'. Because of the extent to which it flux with the investigators. Ok, maybe not.

All we really need is a batch of interesting Mythos cards to use gate shifts on. Is anyone working on custom Mythos cards right now? I might pinch the idea for the next custom expansion I do, if you've no objection.

Thanks. Also I just bought KH! I agree with your ruling for gate sizzle/shift/flux whatever. Actually flux is my favorite.

Why not stretch the idea and add yet another color?

White: Regular

Red: Burst

Blue: Flux

Green: Gate Doom (do please help me think of a better name

When a green gate opens:

No open gate: Gate opens as normal

Open gate: Normal monster surge

Elder sign : No gate opens, but a doom token is added

Thoughts?

Hmmm, I dunno. It's not that interesting, since it has no immediate effect on the investigators.

And if you keep adding colours, I'm going to start forgetting which type is which. Not just me, but any newbs too.

If you want to make any kind of Mythos card that does something whcih is drastically different from opening a gate, you should come up with a unique symbol for it, to entirely replace the gate/location symbol (like they do with those double-doom-token ones).