In this one instance I did find them going a little overboard with sexist metaphors, comparing the Dark Side repeatedly to a "trashy girl" and a "one-night stand", at point saying "you take the dark girl home"... GMDave referred to Texas (where I live as well) as "here in Mexican land" or something like that.

In these cases I definitely wanted them to get back to the actual discussion and quit with the metaphors.

Just for fun, I went and checked out that webcast - I'll agree that the metaphors went on too long, but it didn't strike me as particularly sexist or offensive. The term harsh mistress has been around forever, and the picking up a bad girl from the bar metaphor seems to be a natural extension of being a guy. If he had been female (or gay), he probably would have gone the other way, with a bad boy. Picking someone up in a bar, logically you instinctively would go with your natural inclination when describing the scene.

I guess I have a thicker skin than some, but I wouldn't have paid this any mind if I wasn't actually listening for it.

i can't recall the episodes, but i recall the tone dropping when one of them was talking about his fanboy cream spewing forth.

also being disappointed when one of them was saying he would totally bone oskara. especially when in another episode they had listened attentively to zoe robinson saying she loved the artwork for oskara because it was a strong female twi'lek with her clothes on and that she had a responsibility to provide an environment to welcome girls/women to the hobby.

i've not heard anything that outright offended me, it just seems a bit unnecessary and presents a barrier. my wife is enthusiastic about star wars, tangentially interested in my rpgs, would i suggest she listen to the order 66 for an insight into my hobby? the episode that zoe was on - yes. some of the other episodes - no.

you've asked for examples, claiming that those of us uncomfortable with the tone are guilty of some form of discrimination and idiocy. when examples are presented you've subsequently dismissed them. so, are we simply not allowed to disagree or voice our discomfort?

if the show didn't have any redeeming qualities i would simply stop listening. however, generally the show is great, i expressed my areas of concern, which is something i imagine the creators want to hear. they may not agree - and that's fine, it's their baby, but if they get zero feedback or sycophantic accolades they won't evolve or grow.

New Zombie - who, specifically, are you addressing?

I believe it was me who asked for examples, and I've not only heard some that have answered my questions, but in the time since making my post I have listened to a few more episodes and heard some embarrassing examples myself, like I outline above in the discussion on the dark side being a "trashy girl" or a "one-night stand".

I also just listened yesterday to the episode with the line about "fanboy cream spewing forth" and I was embarrassed by that as well. It was gross, and I'd personally be happier with a slightly more professional level of tone (not necessarily less humor, just less gross fanboy stuff). I haven't heard the bit about wanting to "bone" Oskara, but that's gross as well.

That said, it's an incredible amount of work to make a podcast, and I'm definitely not the one doing all that work, so it's not specifically my prerogative to tell anyone else how to do it.

So it WAS me who asked for examples.

However, I don't believe I have belittled anyone or claimed discrimination or called anyone an idiot.

I think you might be conflating several of the folks discussing this issue.

I waited for a day or two before even making my first post asking for examples, because I was wary of waging into or kicking off an ugly flame war, and I've done my best to be respectful and avoid belittling anyone's positions.

I asked for examples and I not only got them, but in the time since I've heard examples of my own. I now understand where the original poster was coming from, although I personally consider it overkill to just outright say that Order 66 is full of "racism and sexism". This is the main thing I was taking exception with originally, and this observation was directed specifically to Brother Orpheo who made those charges.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if you might be conflating several different posters in this discussion, because I believe I've been civil and respectful in what is obviously a very sensitive subject.

@progressions. apologies. the 'you' i was referring to was jegergryte. i've not found your posts to be dismissive or hostile.

I don't know..... At the end of the day, these are just two guys who are RPGers, who love roleplaying games, star wars RPGs especially, and enjoy putting together a podcast about it. Sure they are very much at the forefront of star wars RPG information, especially EotE, but they certainly aren't ambassadors of the genre, or of star wars, or of anything really. They are guys that enjoy talking about star wars RPGs and provide a podcast with tips and info on it. That's it. I very much enjoy most of the podcasts and find them very helpful. Maybe the "locker room" talk is just too much for some, for some it isn't.

I think to hijack Order 66's thread though to bash them and claim they are on par with Howard Stern or something though is pretty tacky. There has been some good discussion though that hopefully Chris and Dave can take with them to help improve the show, maybe not. But I guess my point is: Who cares? It's their podcast and they can do with it what they like. The fact that this has gone on for multiple pages though just astounds me....

djext1, my original intent was to challenge Brother Orpheo who was making some pretty inflammatory remarks, and also to learn if I had missed something that might justify such harsh language.

I agree Dave and Chris do a great job and devote considerable effort in bringing information, value and fun to this RPG community. I think on the whole their podcast is great.

I'm on the other side. I think the podcast is made nearly, if not completely, useless by its rambling irritating embarrassing racist sexist hosts. When I was listening to this episode to try to extract the Starship info out of it, I had to put on my headphones after a while because I was embarrassed with my wife in the room. (and she is a gamer, so it's not like she isn't use to a little nerd rambling.)

I didn't listen to the episode with the Oskara comment, but if I needed another reason to never tune in again, there it is.

I agree totally that they can do whatever they want on their show, but I have the same right to call it Bantha Poodoo and stop listening.

i can't recall the episodes, but i recall the tone dropping when one of them was talking about his fanboy cream spewing forth.

also being disappointed when one of them was saying he would totally bone oskara. especially when in another episode they had listened attentively to zoe robinson saying she loved the artwork for oskara because it was a strong female twi'lek with her clothes on and that she had a responsibility to provide an environment to welcome girls/women to the hobby.

you've asked for examples, claiming that those of us uncomfortable with the tone are guilty of some form of discrimination and idiocy. when examples are presented you've subsequently dismissed them. so, are we simply not allowed to disagree or voice our discomfort?

So yes, I'm sort of dismissive of the examples, because I find them minor and hardly worthy of notice.

The thing is, they are not doing a good job at podcasting.

There wouldn't be this many complaints about the format of the show if they were.

Interrupting guests for stupid jokes, elementary school sex humor, and 20 minutes promoting their boardgame that has nothing to do with Star Wars doesn't really make me think "good at podcasting."

I don't know..... At the end of the day, these are just two guys who are RPGers, who love roleplaying games, star wars RPGs especially, and enjoy putting together a podcast about it. Sure they are very much at the forefront of star wars RPG information, especially EotE, but they certainly aren't ambassadors of the genre, or of star wars, or of anything really. They are guys that enjoy talking about star wars RPGs and provide a podcast with tips and info on it. That's it. I very much enjoy most of the podcasts and find them very helpful. Maybe the "locker room" talk is just too much for some, for some it isn't.

I think to hijack Order 66's thread though to bash them and claim they are on par with Howard Stern or something though is pretty tacky. There has been some good discussion though that hopefully Chris and Dave can take with them to help improve the show, maybe not. But I guess my point is: Who cares? It's their podcast and they can do with it what they like. The fact that this has gone on for multiple pages though just astounds me....

And yet, by being on the forefront, they kind of are ambassadors in regards to Star Wars RPG, particularly the FFG version, and even more so because they have guys like Jay Little and Sam Stewart on their show. It's a pretty major source for information about the game because they're able to get the guys that designed the game on the show. And to have to wade through 30+ minutes of trivial banter, potentially offensive comments (what one person doesn't mind another person could find horribly offensive), and blatant self-promotion of whatever Kickstarter they're running... it's enough to make some folks write them off entirely, as posts by HappyDaze and Grimmshade indicate.

Yes, folks can just fast-forward through what (to them) are the "irrelevant tripe" parts of the show... but should they really have to? There's a number of folks that come to the Order 66 podcast expecting discussion about Star Wars RPGs, not Dave spouting off about whatever has gotten under his skin that particular week or whatever female celebrity is the latest addition to his "list" or what the current score of whatever sporting event he's watching is. As I myself said, they had the perfect place for that sort of thing... post-show. That way, the folks that want to hear them just shooting the breeze for however long can do so, and the folks that are there for the Star Wars RPG content don't have to wade through a bunch of audio garbage just to get to the "good parts."

As for offensive comments.... that's up to the individual listener. Personally, I'm not offended by most of what Dave says, as being a white American male I'm pretty far outside of the demographics that Dave seems to take issue with. But a past friend of mine (whose parents came over to the US from France, and whose grandfather fought in WW2 against the Nazis) took great offense at his comments regarding the French (remarks he's not made in some time) and likely would have physically assaulted Dave had the opportunity presented itself during that time frame (she's since mellowed out some, so I don't think she'd take such drastic action now). So it's simply a matter of context for what is or is not offensive. Perhaps Brother Orpheo was offended by some remark that most of us wouldn't raise an eyebrow over; I knew a person that got really worked up if you took the Lord's name in vain, but seeing as how I'm generally an atheist I don't mind at all if someone within earshot did just that (especially if they have a perfectly good context for it).

The thing is, they are not doing a good job at podcasting.

There wouldn't be this many complaints about the format of the show if they were.

Whether what they're doing is to your tastes, I don't agree that this necessarily follows.

Are you really suggesting that if something is done well, there wouldn't be any complaints about it?

In my opinion it comes down more to different tastes and sensibilities about something which has a relatively prominent place in our community.

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

you're entitled to your opinion but i can't agree with that. if they weren't doing a good job they wouldn't have 5 years under their belt. nor would they have had the the designers/producers from the saga edition and FFG editions consider it worthwhile to make guest appearances.

Not trying to be an argumentative jerk, but the fact they keep making it doesn't mean they are doing a good job. How many Star Wars Podcasts are out there dealing with FFG's system? There's not a lot of choice. They have the Star Wars RPG market wrapped up, and yet they are alienating half of those listeners. I've been a fan of Star Wars and RPG's both since they first existed, I should be the key target audience, and yet I literally can't stand to listen.

What other podcast are the designers going to appear on to get the word out about FFG's Star Wars games?

I may be wrong, but the couple of episodes I listened to the guests appear to be tolerating the show rather than enjoying themselves.

Most people that have posted to this thread either admit they skip through huge chunks of the podcast, they listen to it despite the glaring problems to try to get the info out of it, or they tried it and can't listen again. That doesn't seem like the recipe for success.

I'll stop posting here now, as I have stated my opinion and I'm not trying to offend fans of the podcast. I just wish it were better, as I would enjoy a good Star Wars RPG podcast.

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

you're entitled to your opinion but i can't agree with that. if they weren't doing a good job they wouldn't have 5 years under their belt. nor would they have had the the designers/producers from the saga edition and FFG editions consider it worthwhile to make guest appearances.

In fairness for a business there is no such thing as bad press. Hardly a benchmark to judge the outlet by.

Tough crowd.

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

Then I'd suggest that reality doesn't bear this out

You seriously can't think of anything that YOU feel was well-done, yet it has loads of complaints about it?

Tough crowd.

now that is funny!

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

Then I'd suggest that reality doesn't bear this out

You seriously can't think of anything that YOU feel was well-done, yet it has loads of complaints about it?

I'm sure in a "Cult Classic" sense I could, but that doesn't really apply here. I'm saying that with the majority of posts here at least saying that they skip a chunk of the podcast, and listen to it despite its problems, you can't really call it well done.

Episode 1 of Star Wars may have had some useful bits of background, but not many would call it well done.

Order 66 podcast is a lot like episode 1, with more Jar Jar.

Now see, I posted after I said I would stop.

I'm guessing there's not a lot of "Blazing Saddles" fans here?

I'm suggesting that if it were truly done well, there would not be so many complaints about how it is not very well done, yes.

All things considered, what we see in this thread isn't that many complaints. Not enough to conclude that the podcast "alienates half of their listeners".

Why isn't simply listening to the podcast proof enough? I don't really understand what kind of proof is needed if "I listened to the podcast and I really dislike all this stuff about it" coming from a bunch of people who like FFG's Star Wars games enough to regularly visit these forums isn't good enough. What better target audience would there be to take a slice of for an opinion?

I'm not personally just talking out my butt or posting because I enjoy trash talking things. I honestly wish that the podcast was enjoyable to listen to, but for me, and apparently plenty of others, it just isn't. I tried it several times, and wanted to smash my IPhone each time, and I'm really not that intolerant of a person. I've just reached a point I would like a Star Wars RPG podcast to be about a Star Wars RPG, and not about elementary school potty humor and which women the host is going to insult this episode by saying he'd like to "nail."

Just my opinion and honest criticism.

I do listen to it, and I disagree with the drastic and dramatic conclusions that people arrive at. Sure, people get offended, some easier than others, that is enough to dislike, even hate it, but its not hardly a good enough basis, anecdotal as it is, to arrive at conclusions such as "alienates half their listeners" or some sort of attempt at an authoritative "the podcast's quality is [objectively] bad because I feel so"... this is just wrong reasoning, not in my opinion, but according to reason, logic, science and so on.

It's fair enough to dislike it and voice criticism, but is it wrong to meet that with scepticism and criticism of ones own? If so, this becomes a very one-sided and narrow notion of who can and cannot voice their concerns and criticisms. If you put your opinions out there, I have as much right to question it and poke at the basis of it, to see if its "merely" feelings that's been hurt, or if there is something actually wrong with the podcast - that I for some reason haven't noticed myself (whether through my own stupidity or ignorance of internal American discourse).

As for the slice of the community that frequent these boards, it's hardly a useful statistical sampling method to arrive at any useful conclusion with.

I agree that it should be about a Star Wars RPG, and not so much about their Kickstarters and lots of side talk about sports and stuff... when it comes to the humour, yes it is simple, base and vulgar, but I just find it hard to understand that these things should be such an obstacle really. I mean sure, there are episodes that are worse than others. Of course, I'm not trying to convince anyone to start listening or change their ways because of this podcast. I mean, if its such a big issues don't listen, voice your concerns or criticism, as you've done, but doing that you are also opening yourself to questions, criticism and poking around as for why, and particularly criticism for sweeping conclusions based on flimsy evidence. The conclusion is the issue, not that you don't like it.

Why do you get to totally dismiss the opinions of so many posters in this thread? You honestly don't think the podcast could be tightened up and made more professional? (As Donovon has suggested, maybe having all the dribble and fart jokes at the end of the podcast) You honestly don't see how the utter lack of professionalism may be driving away listeners?

I don't really need to defend my opinion any more, or the fact that there are many people in these forums that obviously feel the same way. This is now just a cyclical debate where I say "here is my opinion and these people who posted feel the same" and you say "doesn't matter", rinse, repeat.

As I said several posts back, I don't want to beat this point any more so I'm done in this thread.

I don't listen to Order 66 podcast, for real.

I'm not dismissive of opinions, but of sweeping conclusions that are based on flimsy speculations and opinions. There's a difference.

As I've said, sure they can tighten it up, improve it and it wouldn't hurt to have change of humour and less irrelevant content - but I'm not dismissive of a whole podcast just because my feelings are hurt or I feel some sort of entitlement to get offended on behalf of others.

Having the irrelevancies post-show would be a vast improvement, sure. I do not really think of "professionalism" when I think of podcasts, so no, I don't expect it either. It may of course be driving listeners away, but equally it might attract listeners and of course some of us just don't give a flying ..... about what sort of humour these two guys have, because its tertiary, at best, when it comes to what they are actually doing: which is more or less successfully supply advice for running games and overcoming obstacles for GMs, and interviewing the developers and designers of the game(s). The latter is by far the best stuff, but some of the former is quite nice too - although their "ain't that special" segment about specialisations is my least favourite, it basically seems like a filler to me, but obviously other people enjoy it and ask for more. Good for them, they get what they want and O66 keeps up their work, satisfying their fanbase and doing - for the most part - good podcasting work.