@GmMichael: It is deadly, and should be. And yes, your players should repair and upgrade their ship, otherwise they're begging to be offed in the cold of space

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

@Krieger22: Yes, its increase or decrease, but only for targets with silhouettes 2 or more points larger or smaller than attacker. So Silhouette 1 PCs won't need to increase or decrease when shooting at silhouette 0 or 2. In this case, I think the boost or setback dice could work well as a substitute.

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

This. It's so easy for players and GMs new to the system to forget that damage exceeding wound threshold or hull trauma threshold doesn't kill characters*.

Unless it's thematically appropriate, which for most adversaries, it is.

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

This. It's so easy for players and GMs new to the system to forget that damage exceeding wound threshold or hull trauma threshold doesn't kill characters*.

Unless it's thematically appropriate, which for most adversaries, it is.

Actually my group fell into this trap just last weekend. My ship was, thanks to a blown astrogation roll with a despair and then a series of mediocre "crap! We're crashing!" piloting rolls, the ship wound up with a critical hit (hulled and flamed out engines) and crashing with zero hull trauma. It didn't take until yesterday, reading the rule book, where I figured out that "0 hull = very messed up, but not actually destroyed".

Of course we fell into the other trap of a WEG way of thinking - ship encounters consist of piloting rolls, shooting the enemy and occasional shield rolls - and that's it. Nobody tried the Emergency Repairs maneuver, no mitigating efforts other than me trying not to plow into trees. Were we more experienced with starship operations, we wouldn't have been as bad off as we were. Hell, I was mostly unaware of that awesome table on page 237. Why was that not page one in the book!

So yes, this podcast was HUGE in pointing out some basic errors we did, stupid stuff we forgot and areas that we can correct in the future (and gave me some ammo to go to the GM and beg for a do-over in saving my ship from the scrap-heap )

Very interesting show. On one hand I discovered that I knew 100 times more about space combat than I gave myself credit for. On the other hand I still feel like something isn't right. I can nuke my players YT with Beginner Box TIE's within a couple lucky rolls if linked falls just right. I completely understand everything that was laid out on the podcast and in the Core, but is space combat really this deadly? If it is, fine. I just feel like I'm really holding back in order not to vaporize my players. They may just have to suck it up and repair their ship once in a while Or upgrade the **** thing.

I have never played the Beginner's Game, but I have heard elsewhere that Linked only costed 1 Advantage in it. Linked now costs 2 Advantage, so it hits less often. But yes, tangling with the main line military starfighter of the time should be severely deadly.

BB had one symbol, much like other items in Core, which many back then interpreted as 1 advantage but I think most of us sorted that out early on. I've always run the 2 advantage = quality rule unless otherwise noted.

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

This. It's so easy for players and GMs new to the system to forget that damage exceeding wound threshold or hull trauma threshold doesn't kill characters*.

Unless it's thematically appropriate, which for most adversaries, it is.

Actually my group fell into this trap just last weekend. My ship was, thanks to a blown astrogation roll with a despair and then a series of mediocre "crap! We're crashing!" piloting rolls, the ship wound up with a critical hit (hulled and flamed out engines) and crashing with zero hull trauma. It didn't take until yesterday, reading the rule book, where I figured out that "0 hull = very messed up, but not actually destroyed".

Of course we fell into the other trap of a WEG way of thinking - ship encounters consist of piloting rolls, shooting the enemy and occasional shield rolls - and that's it. Nobody tried the Emergency Repairs maneuver, no mitigating efforts other than me trying not to plow into trees. Were we more experienced with starship operations, we wouldn't have been as bad off as we were. Hell, I was mostly unaware of that awesome table on page 237. Why was that not page one in the book!

So yes, this podcast was HUGE in pointing out some basic errors we did, stupid stuff we forgot and areas that we can correct in the future (and gave me some ammo to go to the GM and beg for a do-over in saving my ship from the scrap-heap )

I agree the combat should be deadly. I think I have some folks that may not find space combat as fun because of that, but it is what it is. The things I took away is that I need to insert chases, environmental items, and tons of narrative into the scene to make it come alive with a Star Wars feel and avoid monotonous dogfighting. If the players have to buck up some cash to repair their ship then that's just how the Wookiee rumbles.

Why should space combat be any more deadly than a gunfight (or a knifefight)?

Why should space combat be any more deadly than a gunfight (or a knifefight)?

I don't think anyone is saying that it should be.

I think part of it is that the consequences for becoming disabled can be a lot greater in space than they are on the ground.

With a party of four or five PCs, if one or two of them become unconscious it's easier for me as a GM to still find a way to keep the whole party from literally being killed.

If your ship gets disabled, especially if it's the last encounter of an adventure where you were expected to just escape, it's more challenging to find another alternative to "Oh well, I guess the TIE Fighters blow up your ship."

I ran into this both times I've played Escape from Mos Schuuta so far in the sequence where the Krayt Fang tries to escape from the TIE Fighters.

The most recent time, the TIE Fighter's "Linked" cannons did 10 points total of damage after soak to the already-damaged Krayt Fang and we basically just ended the adventure because I ran out of steam arguing with my nephew and telling him that "exceeding wound threshold doesn't mean you're DEAD".

I hadn't really wanted the encounter to be that deadly, but at that point I felt it was too late.

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

This. It's so easy for players and GMs new to the system to forget that damage exceeding wound threshold or hull trauma threshold doesn't kill characters*.

Unless it's thematically appropriate, which for most adversaries, it is.

Actually my group fell into this trap just last weekend. My ship was, thanks to a blown astrogation roll with a despair and then a series of mediocre "crap! We're crashing!" piloting rolls, the ship wound up with a critical hit (hulled and flamed out engines) and crashing with zero hull trauma. It didn't take until yesterday, reading the rule book, where I figured out that "0 hull = very messed up, but not actually destroyed".

Of course we fell into the other trap of a WEG way of thinking - ship encounters consist of piloting rolls, shooting the enemy and occasional shield rolls - and that's it. Nobody tried the Emergency Repairs maneuver, no mitigating efforts other than me trying not to plow into trees. Were we more experienced with starship operations, we wouldn't have been as bad off as we were. Hell, I was mostly unaware of that awesome table on page 237. Why was that not page one in the book!

So yes, this podcast was HUGE in pointing out some basic errors we did, stupid stuff we forgot and areas that we can correct in the future (and gave me some ammo to go to the GM and beg for a do-over in saving my ship from the scrap-heap )

Yeah, I actually forgot that they put such an emphasis on page 237 in the podcast. I didn't know about it the first time I ran a space encounter and it made a huge difference that I found it before my second. Pointing that out was definitely a good call.

Also, remember that going above the hull trauma threshold doesn't destroy the ship, it doesn't explode (straight away). That honour is left only to starfighter minions, and perhaps rivals. For it to be totally destroyed you need the appropriate critical result.

This. It's so easy for players and GMs new to the system to forget that damage exceeding wound threshold or hull trauma threshold doesn't kill characters*.

Unless it's thematically appropriate, which for most adversaries, it is.

Actually my group fell into this trap just last weekend. My ship was, thanks to a blown astrogation roll with a despair and then a series of mediocre "crap! We're crashing!" piloting rolls, the ship wound up with a critical hit (hulled and flamed out engines) and crashing with zero hull trauma. It didn't take until yesterday, reading the rule book, where I figured out that "0 hull = very messed up, but not actually destroyed".

Of course we fell into the other trap of a WEG way of thinking - ship encounters consist of piloting rolls, shooting the enemy and occasional shield rolls - and that's it. Nobody tried the Emergency Repairs maneuver, no mitigating efforts other than me trying not to plow into trees. Were we more experienced with starship operations, we wouldn't have been as bad off as we were. Hell, I was mostly unaware of that awesome table on page 237. Why was that not page one in the book!

So yes, this podcast was HUGE in pointing out some basic errors we did, stupid stuff we forgot and areas that we can correct in the future (and gave me some ammo to go to the GM and beg for a do-over in saving my ship from the scrap-heap )

Yeah, I actually forgot that they put such an emphasis on page 237 in the podcast. I didn't know about it the first time I ran a space encounter and it made a huge difference that I found it before my second. Pointing that out was definitely a good call.

Page 237 material is huge. So far my players have either shot at something or tried to outrun everything. That's on me. I'm going to write the encounters so that they can dig into what is actually a fairly varied set of maneuvers and actions. I think my understanding on the whole thing is much improved.

Page 237 material is huge. So far my players have either shot at something or tried to outrun everything. That's on me. I'm going to write the encounters so that they can dig into what is actually a fairly varied set of maneuvers and actions. I think my understanding on the whole thing is much improved.

And - more importantly, it's just a list of suggestions. It's heavily implied that if you can think of a spaceship application for a non-spaceship skill (like how athletics, by holding up and welding a chunk of hull plating over a hole, will work as a Damage Control roll in a pinch), that the players can go crazy as long as they can justify the connection to the GM.

You have an shipboard AI that's counting down to self destruct that wont turn off? Don't use mechanics, use charm instead!

Page 237 material is huge. So far my players have either shot at something or tried to outrun everything. That's on me. I'm going to write the encounters so that they can dig into what is actually a fairly varied set of maneuvers and actions. I think my understanding on the whole thing is much improved.

And - more importantly, it's just a list of suggestions. It's heavily implied that if you can think of a spaceship application for a non-spaceship skill (like how athletics, by holding up and welding a chunk of hull plating over a hole, will work as a Damage Control roll in a pinch), that the players can go crazy as long as they can justify the connection to the GM.

You have an shipboard AI that's counting down to self destruct that wont turn off? Don't use mechanics, use charm instead!

yeah, very interesting collaborative storytelling with the mechanics bubbling underneath. That's what I'm going to shoot for. Now, if I can get them to not poop their pants every time I scratch the hull I might be onto something

Page 237 material is huge. So far my players have either shot at something or tried to outrun everything. That's on me. I'm going to write the encounters so that they can dig into what is actually a fairly varied set of maneuvers and actions. I think my understanding on the whole thing is much improved.

And - more importantly, it's just a list of suggestions. It's heavily implied that if you can think of a spaceship application for a non-spaceship skill (like how athletics, by holding up and welding a chunk of hull plating over a hole, will work as a Damage Control roll in a pinch), that the players can go crazy as long as they can justify the connection to the GM.

You have an shipboard AI that's counting down to self destruct that wont turn off? Don't use mechanics, use charm instead!

yeah, very interesting collaborative storytelling with the mechanics bubbling underneath. That's what I'm going to shoot for. Now, if I can get them to not poop their pants every time I scratch the hull I might be onto something

My players consist mostly of a charm-centric face, 1 force sensitive that has mostly focused on being a force sensitive, a hired gun and a trader. Tough the FS and the hired gun both have some gunnery skills, there was only one gunnery position on the ship.

with only one gunner, the trader was doing the piloting stuff, the other 2 players were left scratching their heads. It's been a pain trying to get them to attempt to use skills they are not good at and none of them were even trying to come up with interesting ways to use the skills that they were good at.

Finally I managed to convince my wife (playing the scoundrel our face) to use her character's charm on the pilot. Kind like Leia kissing Luke before they both swung across the shaft in Ep IV, only in this case it was mild flirting. Worked pretty well. Though the other player was a bit at a loss.

This adventure we just concluded really made us realize how tough it is not having someone with a good intellect. No slicer, no doctor, no mechanic, no scholar. I really hit them in their weak spot this adventure, without even meaning to.

This adventure we just concluded really made us realize how tough it is not having someone with a good intellect. No slicer, no doctor, no mechanic, no scholar. I really hit them in their weak spot this adventure, without even meaning to.

You could probably fill some of those voids with an npc droid companion. In careful, limited application I've been able to add characters to the ship (Kotor style) to fill certain niches. You want to be really careful with this because it can get out of hand but I've found it to be a neat tool. The second piece to this is getting players to realize that you don't have to have both hands loaded down with yellow and blue dice to be "good" at something. I think some of the lower to medium pools don't quite get the credit they deserve.

My players consist mostly of a charm-centric face, 1 force sensitive that has mostly focused on being a force sensitive, a hired gun and a trader. Tough the FS and the hired gun both have some gunnery skills, there was only one gunnery position on the ship.

with only one gunner, the trader was doing the piloting stuff, the other 2 players were left scratching their heads. It's been a pain trying to get them to attempt to use skills they are not good at and none of them were even trying to come up with interesting ways to use the skills that they were good at.

Finally I managed to convince my wife (playing the scoundrel our face) to use her character's charm on the pilot. Kind like Leia kissing Luke before they both swung across the shaft in Ep IV, only in this case it was mild flirting. Worked pretty well. Though the other player was a bit at a loss.

This adventure we just concluded really made us realize how tough it is not having someone with a good intellect. No slicer, no doctor, no mechanic, no scholar. I really hit them in their weak spot this adventure, without even meaning to.

Different styles, I guess, but I actually feel like Intellect would be an easy weakness to write around. Computers checks are something I have to specifically write into encounters, and most Mechanics checks are things you can hire someone to do for you (not to say there isn't an advantage in doing them yourself). Lacking Medicine though isn't something I would want to deal with. But with four players, I have an Agility focused player, a Cunning focused player, a Presence focused player and an Intellect focused player. Works out really nicely.

Different styles, I guess, but I actually feel like Intellect would be an easy weakness to write around. Computers checks are something I have to specifically write into encounters, and most Mechanics checks are things you can hire someone to do for you (not to say there isn't an advantage in doing them yourself). Lacking Medicine though isn't something I would want to deal with. But with four players, I have an Agility focused player, a Cunning focused player, a Presence focused player and an Intellect focused player. Works out really nicely.

Hiring a mechanic is a good idea, but sometimes you need one on board to do some damage control otherwise your boat is going to fall apart before you can get away. Luckily that wasn't the case this time.

A scholar might have helped them out, but mostly they were going blind into many situations. Despite their best efforts, that seems to be there shtick these days.

Hiring a mechanic is a good idea, but sometimes you need one on board to do some damage control otherwise your boat is going to fall apart before you can get away. Luckily that wasn't the case this time.

A scholar might have helped them out, but mostly they were going blind into many situations. Despite their best efforts, that seems to be there shtick these days.

One of the things I do like about this system is that so many "specific" tasks can be fulfilled by many archetypes. Any high Int character can make the damage control check - the difficulty really isn't THAT high... ;-)

One of the things I do like about this system is that so many "specific" tasks can be fulfilled by many archetypes. Any high Int character can make the damage control check - the difficulty really isn't THAT high... ;-)

I'm a little ambivalent on that, actually. I ran a Swoop Race a little while ago, and I feel like my Pilot was disappointed when my Hired Gun who has a better Agility performed better despite having no ranks in Piloting (Planetary) and lacking the talents he has. It came down to rolling, to be sure, but I still think he felt he should have had the advantage, but didn't. But it is helpful, in that my group has no mechanic or slicer, but I do have a 5 Intellect Doctor.

One of the things I do like about this system is that so many "specific" tasks can be fulfilled by many archetypes. Any high Int character can make the damage control check - the difficulty really isn't THAT high... ;-)

I'm a little ambivalent on that, actually. I ran a Swoop Race a little while ago, and I feel like my Pilot was disappointed when my Hired Gun who has a better Agility performed better despite having no ranks in Piloting (Planetary) and lacking the talents he has. It came down to rolling, to be sure, but I still think he felt he should have had the advantage, but didn't. But it is helpful, in that my group has no mechanic or slicer, but I do have a 5 Intellect Doctor.

This might be a case where some more Setback dice could have helped on the Piloting checks, for things like environment and terrain.

If the Pilot has talents which remove Setback dice, this could help give the trained Pilot the advantage in those situations.

One of the things I do like about this system is that so many "specific" tasks can be fulfilled by many archetypes. Any high Int character can make the damage control check - the difficulty really isn't THAT high... ;-)

I'm a little ambivalent on that, actually. I ran a Swoop Race a little while ago, and I feel like my Pilot was disappointed when my Hired Gun who has a better Agility performed better despite having no ranks in Piloting (Planetary) and lacking the talents he has. It came down to rolling, to be sure, but I still think he felt he should have had the advantage, but didn't. But it is helpful, in that my group has no mechanic or slicer, but I do have a 5 Intellect Doctor.

This might be a case where some more Setback dice could have helped on the Piloting checks, for things like environment and terrain.

If the Pilot has talents which remove Setback dice, this could help give the trained Pilot the advantage in those situations.

For sure. I'm not sure on the math, but YYY and GGGGG with two Setbacks don't actually seem that different, which is what ended up happening.

I should mention that my Pilot actually made Cunning his primary stat instead of Agility. So this is a bit of an extreme example anyway.

Hiring a mechanic is a good idea, but sometimes you need one on board to do some damage control otherwise your boat is going to fall apart before you can get away. Luckily that wasn't the case this time.

A scholar might have helped them out, but mostly they were going blind into many situations. Despite their best efforts, that seems to be there shtick these days.

One of the things I do like about this system is that so many "specific" tasks can be fulfilled by many archetypes. Any high Int character can make the damage control check - the difficulty really isn't THAT high... ;-)

I like that as well. My poor group is quite deficient in the intellect department.Sad to say, they are quite dumb.

For sure. I'm not sure on the math, but YYY and GGGGG with two Setbacks don't actually seem that different, which is what ended up happening.

I should mention that my Pilot actually made Cunning his primary stat instead of Agility. So this is a bit of an extreme example anyway.

wow, YYY and agility is not his primary skill? and a 5 agility hired gun? i think your parameters definitely skew the results.

a pilot with YYY vs a hired gun GGG+2 setback dice would be a more typical comparison.

Why should space combat be any more deadly than a gunfight (or a knifefight)?

the idea (I think) is that you're dealing with 1 target (your ship) that has 20 hp being attacked by 4 foes, instead of 5 targets (your team in personal combat) with 12 hp each being attacked by 4 foes.

With your ship, all enemy fire is directed at it instead of spread around across your team. And with TIE fighters having Linked, things can turn deadly quick.

Of course, there are ways to balance the two encounter types, but it's easy to see why there's a perception of space combat being deadlier.

Why should space combat be any more deadly than a gunfight (or a knifefight)?

the idea (I think) is that you're dealing with 1 target (your ship) that has 20 hp being attacked by 4 foes, instead of 5 targets (your team in personal combat) with 12 hp each being attacked by 4 foes.

With your ship, all enemy fire is directed at it instead of spread around across your team. And with TIE fighters having Linked, things can turn deadly quick.

Of course, there are ways to balance the two encounter types, but it's easy to see why there's a perception of space combat being deadlier.

I'm not disagreeing with the perception - I've found that it is totally correct. I'm asking WHY is it this way? Does it benefit the game for starship combat to feel ultra-deadly while personal combat feels like a game of a Nerf (the toy line) tag?