Who hurts by a loss of one dice more? A 2 value ship or a 3?

Yet you claimed that the loss of the evade dice is more painful for a Imperial then Rebel.

How many times can any rebel ship be killed by a hit an a crit if at full health?

How many ships can be killed with a single crit? Only 1 the A-Wing. How many ships can be killed with a single Proton bomb? Only 1 the A-Wing.

One could argue that Crits hurt the Rebels more than the Imperials, because they tend to have fewer ships. If you only have 3 ships and one of them takes a nasty crit 33% of your force gets weaker. But if a Academy pilot takes a crit then only 12% of your force is handicapped.

I personally don't believe that any one force is significantly stronger, I have played both and seen ever more games played, and though I personally like to play Imperials better, but that is totally a matter of taste rather than thinking that they are better.

There is sooo much variety in lists, and actual game play is even more important, I find any argument that suggests that one faction is stronger to be unconvincing.

Crits are also slightly worse on Rebels due to a generally higher hull rating meaning the crit will stick in your side longer.

I don't think I have seen a game with unequal pieces be more balanced. Any imbalance on x-wing feels like an argument about white or black in chess. Personal preference with little to no actual effect on game play.

If there were a balance issue I am certain it would have been found and ruthlessly exploited by now.

I don't think I have seen a game with unequal pieces be more balanced. Any imbalance on x-wing feels like an argument about white or black in chess. Personal preference with little to no actual effect on game play.

If there were a balance issue I am certain it would have been found and ruthlessly exploited by now.

You're not looking deep enough then, or have limited playtime with the actual game itself. Black and White in Chess? Did you seriously make that comparison to a game with radically different playstyles, pilots and ships?

The only Imperial list worth flying in serious tournaments is Tie Swarm with Howlrunner and that's because of the sheer probability of numbers. In any game with a probability of numbers, factoring in hull points, attack dice and evade dice means just as much as good flying.

Think about this for a second: WHY do you think Red Daggers is a successful list, or WHY Tie Swarm is often flown in serious tournaments? You have durability, consistency and firepower in both lists. If you lose a single Tie out of 8, big deal. You lose 1 Interceptor out of 3, you're screwed.

One could argue that Crits hurt the Rebels more than the Imperials, because they tend to have fewer ships. If you only have 3 ships and one of them takes a nasty crit 33% of your force gets weaker. But if a Academy pilot takes a crit then only 12% of your force is handicapped.

I personally don't believe that any one force is significantly stronger, I have played both and seen ever more games played, and though I personally like to play Imperials better, but that is totally a matter of taste rather than thinking that they are better.

There is sooo much variety in lists, and actual game play is even more important, I find any argument that suggests that one faction is stronger to be unconvincing.

And I think this is a problem not in the manner that you described, but the fact that we keep seeing the same lists. Any list built for competitive list wants durability and consistency. The scenario you described is dead-on for why the current metagame is unhealthy. Taking more ships to make up for this should not be the go-to answer to how Imperial players should play their game.

Look at Nationals from last year, or the World Championships. We see the same type of lists all the time with no presence of Interceptors at all. All lists approach the 26 HP standard that is Red Daggers for BOTH Rebels and Imperials. You want hull points and you want enough dice to throw. Aside from flying better than your opponent, that's the game you're playing.

Taking more ships to make up for this should not be the go-to answer to how Imperial players should play their game.

There's a sense in which this entirely appropriate, honestly. That is the theme of the films.

The only Imperial list worth flying in serious tournaments is Tie Swarm with Howlrunner

imo its one of the strongest but far from the only imperial list worth flying in serious tournaments.

Neil Howard (Top 8 Worlds)

Captain Jonus + Squad Leader + Seismic Charge

Scimitar Squadron + Cluster Missiles + Concussion Missiles

Scimitar Squadron + Advanced Proton Tropedoes + Proton Tropedoes

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Anthony Lillig(Top 16 Worlds)
2x Bounty Hunter + Gunner
2x Academy Pilot

lots more examples out there.

You're not looking deep enough then, or have limited playtime with the actual game itself. Black and White in Chess? Did you seriously make that comparison to a game with radically different playstyles, pilots and ships?

Yes I did. You see I was comparing balance between sides. You seem to think I was making a deeper analogy. Alternately you are just poisoning the well. I'll some The former. Others have addressed the Empire in tournaments. I haven't participated in one yet though all the media I have consumed shows the Empire holding is own. I have seen far more about fire sprays than tie swarms though.

You are correct the interceptors do have a glass jaw. They are also costed lower and from the experience I do have they work well when something else takes the hits. In your example though I hope you have at least two other ships on the table of you put 100 points into three interceptors you are doing it wrong.

Who hurts by a loss of one dice more? A 2 value ship or a 3?

Yet you claimed that the loss of the evade dice is more painful for a Imperial then Rebel.

How many times can any rebel ship be killed by a hit an a crit if at full health?

How many ships can be killed with a single crit? Only 1 the A-Wing. How many ships can be killed with a single Proton bomb? Only 1 the A-Wing.

Crits do not hurt high hull rebels as much, about 1/3 of the time the imperial player doesn't have a ship left to be "hurt" while you're still flying.

I don't truely believe there is a great imbalance in the force(s). Some of this is a little rebel {scum} vs imperial loyalty banter, but there are certain aspects of the game at this stage that are making it a bit easier to stay with "more forgiving lists" and tactics while it's making it harder and harder for imperials to do anything but swarm up! While this is thematic it's not as much fun. I fly non-swarm lists way more than swarm, but at the end of the day 6-7 tie swarm lists perform best against the rebel {scum} and are mirrors or just as strong as any other imperial list you might see. I'm happy FFG has made such a balanced and amazing game and am just pointing out a few of the quirks I've noticed that might be translating into tendancies.

The only Imperial list worth flying in serious tournaments is Tie Swarm with Howlrunner

imo its one of the strongest but far from the only imperial list worth flying in serious tournaments.

Neil Howard (Top 8 Worlds)

Captain Jonus + Squad Leader + Seismic Charge

Scimitar Squadron + Cluster Missiles + Concussion Missiles

Scimitar Squadron + Advanced Proton Tropedoes + Proton Tropedoes

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Anthony Lillig(Top 16 Worlds)

2x Bounty Hunter + Gunner

2x Academy Pilot

lots more examples out there.

Theorist was top 8 in the Vassal Tournament.

Well the last tournament I went to the two Imperial lists that did best coming in 1st and 3rd were (note: I might not have perfect recall of the fleets)

3 x Black Squadron + Vet Instincts + Stealth

Krassis + HLC + Recon Specialist

Unbeaten, all full wins.

and

4 Shuttles.

a Tie Swarm didn't come in the top 5.

Who hurts by a loss of one dice more? A 2 value ship or a 3?

Yet you claimed that the loss of the evade dice is more painful for a Imperial then Rebel.

How many times can any rebel ship be killed by a hit an a crit if at full health?

How many ships can be killed with a single crit? Only 1 the A-Wing. How many ships can be killed with a single Proton bomb? Only 1 the A-Wing.

I should have clarified: a 2 defense full health ship with 2+shields and 2+hull or a 3 defense ship with 3 hull at full health. And I would consider your awing retort except that proton bombs are pretty scarce and this small case is the only way an awing is less durable than a tie. At full health no imperial ship can one shot an awing without modifiers; again, bwings at range 2-3 with no modifiers can one shot ties and interceptors, and can do so with one hit and one crit. 2 dice rebel ships can also one shot imperials with 1 hit and 1 crit.

Crits do not hurt high hull rebels as much, about 1/3 of the time the imperial player doesn't have a ship left to be "hurt" while you're still flying.

I don't truely believe there is a great imbalance in the force(s). Some of this is a little rebel {scum} vs imperial loyalty banter, but there are certain aspects of the game at this stage that are making it a bit easier to stay with "more forgiving lists" and tactics while it's making it harder and harder for imperials to do anything but swarm up! While this is thematic it's not as much fun. I fly non-swarm lists way more than swarm, but at the end of the day 6-7 tie swarm lists perform best against the rebel {scum} and are mirrors or just as strong as any other imperial list you might see. I'm happy FFG has made such a balanced and amazing game and am just pointing out a few of the quirks I've noticed that might be translating into tendancies.

Except of course an interceptor can kill A-wing/X-wing in one shot at range 1. With Hit x 3 + crit, and a TIE can kill A-wing at range 1 with Hit/Hit/Crit. Both of which have happened to me in games...

I was slightly, but pleasantly, surprised how well both factions are balanced even though they avoided mirror matching both sides.

Sure, there might be slight tendencies, but think overall they vanish mostly in the background noise of other factors like personal preferences, play styles and list building variations.

but there are certain aspects of the game at this stage that are making it a bit easier to stay with "more forgiving lists" and tactics while it's making it harder and harder for imperials to do anything but swarm up!

That I'll agree with. There's little question that it would be nice to see a truly viable 4-5 ship Imperial list. The Tie Advanced was supposed to be that ship I think, but clearly that didn't work out.

The 4 Interceptor list does work, it's one of my favorite lists to fly Imp side, but it doesn't do well in tourney's due at least in part to the way the tournament works.

I think that the buzzsaw shuttle might help shake up the meta some, and I'd like to think the Imp Aces will do something to make Interceptors more viable in a tournament, but from what I've seen I'm not sure it will.

But as you point out, the swam is a hallmark of Imperial methodology and it seems that FFG wanted to make that part of the game design.

but there are certain aspects of the game at this stage that are making it a bit easier to stay with "more forgiving lists" and tactics while it's making it harder and harder for imperials to do anything but swarm up!

That I'll agree with. There's little question that it would be nice to see a truly viable 4-5 ship Imperial list. The Tie Advanced was supposed to be that ship I think, but clearly that didn't work out.

The 4 Interceptor list does work, it's one of my favorite lists to fly Imp side, but it doesn't do well in tourney's due at least in part to the way the tournament works.

I think that the buzzsaw shuttle might help shake up the meta some, and I'd like to think the Imp Aces will do something to make Interceptors more viable in a tournament, but from what I've seen I'm not sure it will.

But as you point out, the swam is a hallmark of Imperial methodology and it seems that FFG wanted to make that part of the game design.

A couple things:

It does seem like some people are judging the strength of the imperials based on the fact that you can't build complete lists of interceptors or whatever ship, but the rebels really can't do that with A-Wings, Y-Wings, or HWKs and expect them to be competitive.

Your point about design is also important. Because the imperials are designed as more of a swarm, numbers are important to their lists and it goes against their strength to try and build small lists. Of course, there's a lot of argument that even rebel 3 ship fighter lists (outside of the Trinity) are going away, too.

I do have a 5 ship imperial list that I think may be viable and that I'll post soon to see what people think.

It does seem like some people are judging the strength of the imperials based on the fact that you can't build complete lists of interceptors or whatever ship, but the rebels really can't do that with A-Wings, Y-Wings, or HWKs and expect them to be competitive.

True, you bring up some good points.

The thing is I guess, is that you can to a point you can to a point pick a rebel ship, put 4 of them on the table and some upgrades and have a good list. Maybe not a tournament winning list, but still a solid one that can win friendly games at the LGS. The HWK and YT-1200 are also fairly easy to fit in a list.

But in order to make Tie Fighters effective you need either 6-8 of them on the table, or have a large ship. Interceptors work, but require more skill to win with then any rebel ship other then perhaps the A-Wing. The Tie Bomber can do well in a flight of 4, but you're really kind of counting on a bit of luck with your alpha strike.

I prefer rebels but enjoy flying both sides. But the Imperial side is a big less forgiving to play. That can lead people to think that the Imperial are the weaker faction. However tournament reports, leagues, and the rest show pretty clearly both sides are pretty well balanced.

Who hurts by a loss of one dice more? A 2 value ship or a 3?

Yet you claimed that the loss of the evade dice is more painful for a Imperial then Rebel.

How many times can any rebel ship be killed by a hit an a crit if at full health?

How many ships can be killed with a single crit? Only 1 the A-Wing. How many ships can be killed with a single Proton bomb? Only 1 the A-Wing.

I should have clarified: a 2 defense full health ship with 2+shields and 2+hull or a 3 defense ship with 3 hull at full health. And I would consider your awing retort except that proton bombs are pretty scarce and this small case is the only way an awing is less durable than a tie. At full health no imperial ship can one shot an awing without modifiers; again, bwings at range 2-3 with no modifiers can one shot ties and interceptors, and can do so with one hit and one crit. 2 dice rebel ships can also one shot imperials with 1 hit and 1 crit.

Crits do not hurt high hull rebels as much, about 1/3 of the time the imperial player doesn't have a ship left to be "hurt" while you're still flying.

I don't truely believe there is a great imbalance in the force(s). Some of this is a little rebel {scum} vs imperial loyalty banter, but there are certain aspects of the game at this stage that are making it a bit easier to stay with "more forgiving lists" and tactics while it's making it harder and harder for imperials to do anything but swarm up! While this is thematic it's not as much fun. I fly non-swarm lists way more than swarm, but at the end of the day 6-7 tie swarm lists perform best against the rebel {scum} and are mirrors or just as strong as any other imperial list you might see. I'm happy FFG has made such a balanced and amazing game and am just pointing out a few of the quirks I've noticed that might be translating into tendancies.

Except of course an interceptor can kill A-wing/X-wing in one shot at range 1. With Hit x 3 + crit, and a TIE can kill A-wing at range 1 with Hit/Hit/Crit. Both of which have happened to me in games...

There are circumstances where that can happen, I was discussing more general design at I modified rolls, not worrying about range. At any given moment, every rebel ship except a naked HWK can kill a tie or interceptor with one shot with not too terribly great/poor rolls Unmodified rolls. The imperials, to do the same, must have all hits+ 1 crit + no evades+ no tokens to one specific model of the rebel ships (awing only) and even greater rolls and no evades to do that to any other ship.

I think some of the one big 3-4 small ship lists are going to stick on the imperial side. The shuttle and bounty hunter are both one upgrade away from a new arctype build for one or both and a 3 big ship build (some would argue they are there now). Aces should allow an interceptor here and there to be added to lists but I doubt we'll see muti or all interceptors become popular.

At any given moment, every rebel ship except a naked HWK can kill a tie or interceptor with one shot with not too terribly great/poor rolls Unmodified rolls.

Y-Wings can't, not easily. Need a hit and crit Direct Hit! with no evades by the Tie. That's hardly what I'd consider great odds. Even X and B's need some luck to pull that off at range 2 or 3.

Have to either roll 3 hits/crits with all blanks by the Imperial ship. Not sure what the odds of 3 blank evade die are, but I know it's not a real high chance.

How well does a TIE swarm do against other Imperial lists? What I mean is, is the strength of the swarm ideally suited and balanced against rebel ships specifically or is it strong against any 3-5 ship build? I watched that Worlds game when a swarm went up against a mixed bomber swarm and it didn't go too well for the latter.

The best lists, in my opinion, are still the 7 TIE Swarm with Howlrunner, and an 8 TIE Swarm. A 6 TIE swarm is also an excellent build. The combat power of a squad is proportional to the square of the number of ships. This is why 5 ship Rebel squads are starting to become popular in the metagame.

So even if a single TIE Fighter is only 25% as combat effective as a single X-wing or B-wing, 8 TIES vs XXBB (or whatever flavor of 4 ship Rebel build you can come up with) will be about an even fight. Realistically, TIEs are more than 25% of the combat effectiveness of even B-wings with Advanced Sensors, so the advantage on paper should go pretty strongly to the swarm.

The results at the last 2 Worlds show this out. I believe the first winning list was a 6 TIE swarm that was flown very well. The runner up in the most recent Worlds was a 7 TIE Swarm. I will go out on a limb and say that the dice favored the Rebels that game, otherwise the swarm probably would have won. I analyzed and calculated the exact probability of every single attack in the Finals game, so this is not a baseless statement.

It remains to be seen what ships will be released between now and the next Worlds, but my money would be on another Swarm list or a very close relative winning again.