It all comes down to what "opportunity to attack" means in the Simultaneous rule.

I beg to differ. Simultaneous Fire (SF) has no bearing on this discussion. SF has special rules to cover SF. The original question is about effects during normal combat.

I beg to differ. Simultaneous Fire (SF) has no bearing on this discussion. SF has special rules to cover SF. The original question is about effects during normal combat.

Technicaly if under SF you only remain for a single attack once your destroyed but the gunner kicks in and keeps you on the board then that gives the precedent of gunner attacking after the rules suggest a ship has been destroyed. Which means using gunner in SF has nothing to do with SF rules but they way gunner works. So it then has to apply to vadder as well. We are just discussing possible ways how the gunner works. But as pointed out before no one actually knows as its not been in the faq.

I beg to differ. Simultaneous Fire (SF) has no bearing on this discussion. SF has special rules to cover SF. The original question is about effects during normal combat.

Technicaly if under SF you only remain for a single attack once your destroyed but the gunner kicks in and keeps you on the board then that gives the precedent of gunner attacking after the rules suggest a ship has been destroyed. Which means using gunner in SF has nothing to do with SF rules but they way gunner works. So it then has to apply to vadder as well. We are just discussing possible ways how the gunner works. But as pointed out before no one actually knows as its not been in the faq.

Actually I think the example under the SF rules makes this clear.

Example: Black Squadron Pilot (pilot skill “4”)

attacks Red Squadron Pilot (pilot skill “4”). From

this attack, Red Squadron Pilot suffers damage

equal to its hull value. Red Squadron Pilot will be

destroyed, but since it has the same pilot skill

as the active ship, it first has the opportunity to

resolve its combat steps . After Red Squadron

Pilot resolves its combat steps , it is destroyed and

removed from the play area.

The (emphasis mine) phrase "resolve its combat steps", I think makes it clear that you are not performing just the attack but the whole attack and related effects process. Gunner is part of the combat steps, so activates as normal in SF.

Rulebook (Page 10) The scope of a single attack is not defined. The first paragraph on page 10 should read: “During this phase, each ship may perform ONE attack against one enemy ship. Starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill, to perform ONE attack, players resolve the following steps in order (notice the use of one attack)

1. Declare Target:

2. roll attack Dice: The attacker

3. Modify attack Dice: Players

4. roll Defense Dice:

5. Modify Defense dice:

6. compare results:

7. Deal Damage:

End of combat phase under SF as you only stay under SF rules until you have made an attack, the rules of SF rules state after you have had an opportunity to attack you are destroyed.

Gunner is by definition and FAQ to be a new attack.

Gunner then kicks in launches a new separate attack.

If your suggesting gunner is part of steps 1-7 which part?

And if Gunner happans in steps 1-7 how does vader which happans after step 7 trigger first as that is what the faq says under normal conditions.

As it reads in simultaneous attacks you are destroyed after making your 1st attack. So technical the Gunner should never be allowed. But thats not how its played.

We don't understand why the Gunner is allowed only that its allowed.

I think we do know why gunner works in a simultaneous attack situation:

Rulebook page 16: "After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area."

Gunner: "After you perform an attack ... immediately perform ..."

There are two effects. One from simultaneous attack, the other from gunner. Both effects trigger after an attack. They trigger at the same time. And both get executed "immediately" after that. Which effect gets executed first?

FAQ:

Q:

If a player has multiple effects that resolve

at the same time, can he resolve them in

any order?

A:

Yes

Gunner works because the player chooses to execute gunner prior to destruction. That's his privilege.

The player may activate gunner and then choose to execute destruction first. That's not recommended, though.

As it reads in simultaneous attacks you are destroyed after making your 1st attack. So technical the Gunner should never be allowed. But thats not how its played.

We don't understand why the Gunner is allowed only that its allowed.

I think we do know why gunner works in a simultaneous attack situation:

Rulebook page 16: "After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area."

Gunner: "After you perform an attack ... immediately perform ..."

There are two effects. One from simultaneous attack, the other from gunner. Both effects trigger after an attack. They trigger at the same time. And both get executed "immediately" after that. Which effect gets executed first?

FAQ:

Q:

If a player has multiple effects that resolve

at the same time, can he resolve them in

any order?

A:

Yes

Gunner works because the player chooses to execute gunner prior to destruction. That's his privilege.

The player may activate gunner and then choose to execute destruction first. That's not recommended, though.

Can I ask How are there two effects there is only one effect I can see the removal of your ship

Have you made your attack under SF rules and yes you have. Given the SF rules only allow one attack.

Q: When the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in play until it performs its attack, are all effects pertaining to that ship still in play? A: Yes. Effects from the ship’s pilot ability, upgrades, Damage cards, etc. are still active and may affect the game

The rule is clear the gunner card is an upgrade and is only active until you resolve your attack. It can only be played after your attack if it overrides the rules.

So if it overrides the rules it can be played after suicidal vader.

Just No. Can't be bothered to argue any more.

So if it overrides the rules it can be played after suicidal vader.

I think it can be played/activated ! But executing/resolving the effect fails as the ship is no longer on the playing surface.

After some thinking here is how in my current oppinion sucide Vader and Gunner work:

1) Ship with 1 or 2 damage remaining, Gunner and Vader attacks and scores no hits.

2) After the attack (step 1) both Gunner and Vader activate.

3) A decision is made to execute Vader 1st and Gunner 2nd. (*)

4) Execute Vader

5) Execute Gunner

During step 5 a problem arises: The Gunner card is not in play. It was removed during step 4 together with the Vader card, the pilot card and the ship. Step 5 fails. Gunner is not executed.

The key is that if two or more effects activate at the same time they are executed one after the other.

Note: In that scenario I suggest to activate Gunner but not Vader after the initial attack. Then activate Vader after the Gunner attack.

(*) The reason why Vader goes 1st is not relevant at this point.

In response to your questions:Rule Question:How does the gunner upgrade card work? In particular in simultaneous fire and or when vader is activated after a ship attacks destroying his own ship?Can the Gunner activate when a ship is destroyed?

This is touched on a bit with the FAQ, but essentially, you cannot use Vader if you do not have at least 1 hull remaining.If you perform an attack that misses, you may use Gunner. So, if the ship is already destroyed, perhaps from Simultaneous Attack rule or you had already used Vader to destroy your ship, you may still use Gunner.So if you ship has 1 or 2 hull remaining, and you have both Gunner and Vader equipped, if the ship attacks and misses, you may choose to activate Vader or not. Either way, you may still perform your Gunner attack. If you chose not to use Vader after the first attack, you may still choose to do it after the second attack, but you couldn't do both.If you have the above equipped ship, but it has already been destroyed, but not removed due to Simultaneous Attack rule, you may choose to use Gunner if you missed, but you couldn't use Vader since you do not have enough hull to use his ability.

Thanks for playing!Frank BrooksAssociate Creative Content

And that comes from where?

And that comes from where?

Obviuosly it comes from Frank Brooks the Associate Creative Content Developer Fantasy Flight Games or FFG

Its a response from FFG as a rules question was submitted.

I'll wait on that appearing in the FAQ for final agreement, but it does seem a contradictory answer to me. Makes the Vader situation even more complicated.

Till then, I'm afraid that I don't know you and thus can't trust that you didn't just write that yourself to support your own position.

I'll wait on that appearing in the FAQ for final agreement, but it does seem a contradictory answer to me. Makes the situation even more complicated.

Till then, I'm afraid that I don't know you and thus can't trust that you didn't just write that yourself to support your own position.

Well the Grown up thing would be to ask me to forward the email or submit your own rules question.

Rodent mastermind doesn't seem to have a problem with my integrity when I sent him a personal communication.

But to accuse someone off making it all up just to win an argument, What a ridiculous sugestion not to mean offensive. Its a ffg forum making up false statements saying there from FFG hows that not going to be picked up? If you think that report me to the administrator then. Good luck.

You obviously dont like the answer and ignore it anyway play how you like.

I tried to help you understand the original question and then reported back with an answer. And sometimes we do get ffg giving out slightly different responses. But seeing as ive given you a name of someone who works at ffg it doesn't take a genius to track the guy down and for you to ask him yourself.

Dude, chill. I don't trust /anyone/ I only know online. Sure you could forward on a mail, but that could be faked too. Not that I am saying it is likely, merely possible. Until I see an official published response I will wait.

I mean it is possible that they will decide differently from this when it comes to the next FAQ revision,

I'm adding some new information to this thread. It looks like most of us are wrong in thinking that Gunner cannot be executed after Vader performs his ability, even in normal combat. I was still confused by Frank's ruling posted by Bazinga so I requested further clarification. Frank's reply to me is below. This makes it so much clearer. Even if I must now admit I was wrong (how I hate that!)

Rule Question (from me, quoted):

"If the player chooses to execute Vader first (remember, this is his choice!) the ship has damage applied to it that exceeds the hull points for the ship. This means the rule for a destroyed ship now applies. That rule states that the ship and all its stuff is immediately removed from play. This included Gunner. There is no ship left on the board. How can Gunner be executed?"

Frank:

Let’s ignore Vader for a moment. If you had Gunner equipped to a ship, if it was destroyed, but not yet removed due to Simultaneous Attack Rule, it could still use Gunner. So in this case, you are able to use Gunner even though the ship is “already destroyed."

Let’s add Vader back into a normal combat situation. It would be inconsistent with the above for Gunner to not be able to trigger if the ship was destroyed with Vader. In both situations you have a ship that has enough damage cards to exceed its hull value, and it just performed an attack that missed. Whether it was because of Simultaneous Attack Rule or using Vader to do so, you can still use Gunner when you are “already destroyed.”

Thanks for playing!

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

That's about as clear as I've ever seen an answer.

I think the short version takeaway from that is that abilities, once triggered, will resolve regardless.

I think the short version takeaway from that is that abilities, once triggered, will resolve regardless.

I concur.

Yup - Accepted. I still don't think it is logical, but will play that way.

So now just assuming that the gunner is getting his last shot off as Vader causes the shuttle to go boom. Last gasp effort!