I was running an Ivory doom hippo /w gunner and the chance/question came up I had only 2 hull left on the shuttle and my first hit was evaded so I activated Vader inflicting the last two damage on the shuttle. Does gunner still activate and if so can I active Vader again and do overflow damage to my shuttle? (Same kind of principal as with getting to attack at same PS if destroyed)
Edited by SlimjimVader/Gunner?
If your shuttle has a number of damage cards equal or greater than its hull value after the first attack followed by the use of vader. The Gunner can make a second attack but the faq is clear you can not use vader again.
Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has a number of Damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet destroyed because of the simultaneous attack rule, can it use Darth Vader’s ability? A: No
The rule book clearly states on page 16, under "Destroying Ships," "when the number of Damage cards dealt to the ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed ," (emphasis mine.) The only time the ship is not immediately destroyed is when the simultaneous attack rule is in effect. Your choosing to execute Vader with two hull points left was, well, executing Vader in the mortal sense.
However, I'm not sure Bazinga got the first part of their post correct. Unless the FAQ says something different, I would say that Gunner does not activate if you executed Vader before Gunner. The ship was destroyed as soon as Vader acted, killing everyone on board.
Edited by LappenlockerTy bazinga I read the FAQ and your right.
Q: If a ship attacks, misses, and triggers Gunner/Luke Skywalker, can it target a different ship for the primary weapon attack?
A: yes
Using the gunner is conditional on missing the primary attack. So unless ive missed something in the rules or faq, the ship is able to preform a primary attack before being destroyed it can use Gunner.
Edited by BazingaVader does damage when you use him. Destruction of ship is checked for any time you take damage. Simultaneous attack rule only keeps you alive when you have been destroyed by an enemy with same PS who has the initiative. If you are not still on the board because of simultaneous attack rule (i.e. you have hull points left) then you check for damage after using Vader, if you are destroyed then you are dead! If you are on the board because of simultaneous attack rule then you cannot use Vader at all.
Applicable FAQ entry:
Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has
a number of Damage cards that equals
or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet
destroyed because of the simultaneous
attack rule, can it use Darth Vader’s ability?
A: No.
Thanks Bilisknir, I get you cannot use Vader but the gunner would still activate correct?
I ask this because in the check for damage step it states 'immediatly' however Gunner also states 'immediately' and in the FAQ the very first question reads
Q: if a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order?
A: Yes.
Edited by SlimjimNo.
If you use Vader before Gunner, then the damage gets done to you, you are destroyed, and Gunner never gets a chance to activate (because you are dead). If you use Gunner first, you never get to activate Vader on the first attack, because the second attack starts immediately (you can of course then use Vader on the second attack).
Of course, I'm of the camp that you should not Vader yourself into oblivion. Make them waste the attack for the last damage!
The use of immediate has been argued in thread after thread.
It may or may not have meaning. It may be word used to describe timings or because the person writing the sentence thought it sounded good.
Id rather avoid having another long winded discussion about immediate.
Rodent mastermind best described it by posting..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gunner is a primary attack and such is allowed after attacking regardless if the ship is destroyed in simultaneous fire or by vader.
Vader can not be used if the hull damaged is equal to or greater than.
We dont know why many arguments have been started over this.
Poor writing of the faq or maybe we dont understand the game mechanics or even ffg make it all up. Are some of the more extreme examples of why we dont know.
Im not saying I agree with these examples.
Then we have the problem of resolving things at your discretion. Trouble is if you resolve gunner first vader can only be triggered by the last attack. You can not go attack, gunner vader vader. You have to go attack vader gunner then vader. Its a timing issue.
Saying you can resolve multiple effects in any order is okay but, resolve them in the wrong order and by the time you resolve them they may not be allowed.
This is about timing and not multiple effects that resolve at the same time.
Scenario One:
Attack does not hit
Gunner immediately performs a primary weapon attack
Use Darth Vader to cause 1 critical damage, immediately causing 2 hull damage to your ship, immediately destroying your ship
Scenario Two:
Attack does not hit
Use Darth Vader to cause 1 critical damage, immediately causing 2 hull damage to your ship, immediately destroying your ship
The reason these two scenarios is different is because the triggers occur in different order.
Gunner is a primary attack and such is allowed after attacking regardless if the ship is destroyed in simultaneous fire or by vader.
Eh?
Vader can not be used if the hull damaged is equal to or greater than.
Latest FAQ makes it very clear, no hull points means no Vader.
Then we have the problem of resolving things at your discretion. Trouble is if you resolve gunner first vader can only be triggered by the last attack. You can not go attack, gunner vader vader. You have to go attack vader gunner then vader. Its a timing issue.
Repeat what I said...
Honestly, nobody really knows.
We know you can use Vader after each attack. We know you can use Vader even if it would destroy your ship. We know you can't use Vader if you're "already dead" and only alive because you're in a simultaneous attack situation.
But there is no "Unified Theory of Destruction" which accounts for all of this, or says what Gunner does. And since FFG's preference on rules these days is to give us specific rulings rather than have good rules, we don't actually know how it affects Gunner.
My personal theory is that Gunner goes before Vader becuase it is immediate. Immediate effects beating Vader would explain why you can't use him in a simultaneous fire situation (because removal after the attack is immediate). So as strange as it is, you'd attack, make the Gunner attack, and then resolve both activations of Vader.
It's worth noting that there are several who disagree with that assessment of the timing, and there are elements of all of our readings which don't match the FAQ. Plenty of long debate-y threads on the topic. Until FFG gets around to giving us something new, best to just discuss it with your opponent before the game, or ask the TO before the event.
Is anyone arguing that Vader could be used twice? That may be the hope but that is not the case are repeatedly shown.
The next issue seems to be "can I use Gunner after I've used Vader and destroyed my ship?" My take on this is NO but my solution is pretty simple: DON'T use Vader until after the Gunner has made it's attack. Did you change targets for some reason because if no there is no reason you couldn't just use Vader after this second attack. Maybe you're hoping to shoot at one ship and then use Vader if you miss it and then Gunner another ship. I guess that leads me to a question about Vader:
"Must I use Vader on the initial target before I make an attack with Gunner if I want to use Vader on that initial target?" I made an attack on the ship so I'd figure I could still use Vader on it before my turn is up and if I made another attack I could use Vader on that target as well even if it happens to be the same target.
What says you can't use Vader twice? Repeatedly shown... where?
The FAQ specifically says he can be activated after each use of Gunner, so you can use him twice. It explicitly says you can use him if it destroys your ship, so you can use him twice even if it destroys your ship. It also says you can't use him in a simultaneous fire situation. That's it.
You can't extend the simultaneous fire ruling to other situations - the FAQ entry specifically addresses simultaneous fire, and we don't have enough of a "why" to pull that as precedent for anything else.
Did you read the original post? The shuttle has 2 hull points left. Hence using Vader destroys you. That is the end of your turn you do not get to do anything else. The question was after using Vader on the first attack do you still get to gunner? Answer: No. YOU ARE DEAD.
Outside of a simultaneous fire situation if you take damage such that number of damage cards exceeds or equals hull value you are immediately destroyed and removed from the game.
Q:
If a ship attacks twice through some effect,
such as the Gunner upgrade, can the ship
use the ability of Darth
Vader
(the Upgrade
card) twice?
A:
Yes, once after each attack.
This FAQ answer is quite clearly saying (as far as I am concerned) that order is Shoot/Vader/Gunner/Vader. The order is not Shoot/Gunner/Vader/Vader.
Lets first start with a simultaneous firing rule without looking at Vader. If have a ship that gets destroyed by an opponent of the same PS, until you have until you can attack to be on the board. And all of your effects and crit effects are in effect. For example, if Howlrunner was killed by Luke, her wingmate Boba could attack before Howlrunner and get her reroll. However, if she attacks before Boba, she is removed, and Boba doesn't get her reroll.
"Although ships perform their attacks one at a time,
ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active
ship’s pilot skill value have the opportunity to
attack before being destroyed.
If such a ship would be destroyed, it simply retains
its Damage cards without being removed from the
play area. It may perform an attack as normal during
the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage
cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.
After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this
round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from
the play area.
" (bold mine)
So this is really a question about whether you can trigger gunner if you're only alive due to simultaneous firing. The rule states after it's had an opportunity to attack, it is immediately destroyed. Which conflicts with what gunner says "After you preform an attack that does not hit, immediately preform a primary weapon attack." But, the golden rule is that card text overrides rule book text when they conflict. There is also the clause "Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve
at the same time, can he resolve them in any order? A: Yes."
So, this means to me that if you're alive only due to simultaneous fire, you can still use Gunner on your attack.
So, I have reasoned out why you should be able to use gunner even if your hull is destroyed by a same PS enemy. Now we just have to discuss the scenario where you kill yourself with Vader.
So, you attack and miss. Before the "immediately" of Gunner executes, the "after an attack" of Vader executes. We know this because they say you can use Vader after both gunner attacks. Which means: attack vader gunner vader, is a valid combination.
So, Vader kills you. Which means you still have the pending "immediately" from gunner, and the new "immediately" from the rule book regarding death. It would seem the same logic applies to this scenario, card text overrides rule book, and two events triggering at the same time allows the player to determine timing of the two effects. And we know that one effect doesn't override the other effect from happening (see fettigator).
Therefore, my analysis would conclude:
If your first attack misses, you may use Vader to attack the first target, killing yourself, and then trigger Gunner for another attack.
However, you cannot use Vader after your second attack.
Thanks guys for your insite I did not think that everyone would be so split. I agree with Buhallin In that I check with my opponent or TO before match begins. That being said I personally agree with Khyros as to the order/ruling. Attack/Vader(boom)/gunner before removal (on either same or different target)
Thanks
I really don't agree with this. The removal of destroyed ship is not an action you can take in any order. It just happens. End of.
Think of the damage check happening as part of the use of Vader, the immediately from Gunner never activates because Vader wasn't finished when you did the damage check. When doing the damage check you found you were destroyed, so you were removed.
Every game effect is something that has a specific timing, including ship removal. If there were something uniquely fast about ship destruction, then abilities such as Fel's Wrath would never have the opportunity to trigger.
I really don't agree with this. The removal of destroyed ship is not an action you can take in any order. It just happens. End of.
Think of the damage check happening as part of the use of Vader, the immediately from Gunner never activates because Vader wasn't finished when you did the damage check. When doing the damage check you found you were destroyed, so you were removed.
There is no "check damage" step, there is a "deal damage" step:
"7. deal damage
During this step, hit ships suffer damage based upon
uncanceled [hit] and [crit] results.
...
When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship
equals or exceeds its hull value (yellow number), that
ship is destroyed (see “Destroying Ships” on page 16)."
The Destroying ships states what I said about immediately remove the ship (see exceptions for simultaneous fire). So, you don't "check damage" or "check to see if ships are destroyed" at any point. It is destroyed when the damage cards equal its hull. And then it is immediately removed. But you can preform things that happen at the same time in any order. And card text overrides rule text. I stand by my opinion.
(With all that said, I wouldn't be surprised if FFG said "no - it can't be done" since they don't seem to keep any logic between their rulings)
What says you can't use Vader twice? Repeatedly shown... where?
Ok, my mistake on assuming this situation we are looking at was known. You know, the situation where Vader is used to blow up is own ship. As this situation is presented Vader can only be used once.
Now in a general situation Vader certainly could be used more than once in a turn. THIS IS NOT A GENERAL SITUATION. If you say Vader can still be used twice here you are implying that you could shot and miss, Vader (ship has damage = hull), make Gunner Attack, and Vader again.
The "repeatedly shown" is the FAQ statement saying that if Vader destroys a ship he can't do it again.
The "repeatedly shown" is the FAQ statement saying that if Vader destroys a ship he can't do it again.
And which FAQ statement would that be?
Just to save everyone a bunch of time, here are the FAQ entries concerning Vader:
Q: If a ship attacks twice through some effect, such as the Gunner upgrade, can the ship use the ability of Darth Vader (the Upgrade card) twice?
A: Yes, once after each attack.
Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader would be destroyed by using Darth Vader’s ability, can it use that ability?
A: Yes
Q: If a ship equipped with Darth Vader has a number of Damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value, but is not yet destroyed because of the simultaneous attack rule , can it use Darth Vader’s ability?
A: No.
That's all there is. Nothing in there says anything like what you're trying to claim.
I suspect that you're trying to ignore the bolded part of the final entry, but you really can't. It tells us nothing about how Vader operates outside of simultaneous fire, and tells us precious little about why he works the way he does.
Every game effect is something that has a specific timing, including ship removal. If there were something uniquely fast about ship destruction, then abilities such as Fel's Wrath would never have the opportunity to trigger.
http://teamcovenant.com/buhallin/2013/04/02/raw-vs-rai/
Isn't the RAW approach to take the rules as written? In the absence of card text, ship destruction takes place immediately when damage exceeds hull points. The core rules state ship destruction is immediate when damage>hull. Fel's Wrath card text explicitly defines a special condition regarding ship destruction (RAW). Gunner does not explicitly define something related to ship destruction (RAW). The FAQ does not address this specific condition (alas, but RAW).
I tried to follow your approach related to triggers in my earlier post which also seems to follow RAW rather than try determining intent based on some other card's text (Fel's Wrath). Really, I'm not sure why Fel's Wrath is even being used as support for a specific position because card text overrides rule text as it relates to that card. Or am I mistaken on your RAW vs. RAI post?
Edited by LappenlockerI was initially inclided to believe you could Vader then gunner but now I agree with Bilisknir
The example in the OP was not a Simultaneous Attack situation although it was likened to it.
That being the case, then the ship destruction rules apply as per pg16 until overrulled by a card text (e.g. Fel Wrath)
Ships can suffer damage from different sources, such
as being hit during combat or by an effect or card
ability
....
When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship
is equal to or greater than its hull value, the
ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown
cards count toward this total). Immediately remove
the destroyed ship from the play area,
In the situation described the attack has missed which brings us to the effects of the Gunner
(After you perform an attack that does not hit, immediately perform a primary weapon attack)
and Darth Vader.
(After you perform an attack against an enemy ship,..)
As previously pointed out
Q: if a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order?
A: Yes.
So we can resolve Gunner and Vader in the order we choose, BUT we are still under the core rules for destroying ships.
If we choose to resolve Vader first we also resolve the damage he deals his own ship. If this is enough to destroy him, then
the ship is immediately destroyed
As Buhallin has pointed out, we can only speculate until FFG give a ruling which will probably be specific to this situation rather than a more general rules amendment.
And just to be really confusing, if this was a simultaneous attack situation I would say they could vader themself to death before using Gunner.