Hello everyone.
I've recently acquired Descent 2nd Edition and we choose for our first play the Twin Idols map.

Some questions arose when we got to the 2nd Encounter of this map.

The main one being with picking up an Objective Marker. Are we supposed to treat these markers like all search markers, meaning, we can pick these up from adjacent spaces, or do we have to stand on them to be able to pick them up?

The second question that came up was with monsters carrying the objective marker. In the first encounter it said in the special rules that monsters carrying the Idol could only perform one action per turn. On the second encounter, monster have to carry a Totem. So we played with different rules and monsters could have the totem and perform two move actions. This lead to Lady Farrow just grabbing it, surviving the first attack turn and then just making a run for it. Is this as intended?

The main one being with picking up an Objective Marker. Are we supposed to treat these markers like all search markers, meaning, we can pick these up from adjacent spaces, or do we have to stand on them to be able to pick them up?

There are no general rules for objective tokens. Everything that can be done with one is described in the quest rules for the quest in which they appear.

In the case of this map (E1), the quest rules state that a monster may pick it up from an adjacent space, as an action. So you cannot pick it up from the same space, you must be adjacent.

For the totems in E2, it doesn't actually say exactly where the figure must be to pick up a totem. I would be inclined to say "on or adjacent to," but this is technically an omission that one would need to ask FFG about to know the official answer. (If it has been asked before, I don't remember seeing the answer.)

On the second encounter, monster have to carry a Totem. So we played with different rules and monsters could have the totem and perform two move actions. This lead to Lady Farrow just grabbing it, surviving the first attack turn and then just making a run for it. Is this as intended?

It's legit. The rules for the totems in E2 do not restrict the number of Move actions a monster can take while carrying the totem, therefore general rules apply. A monster can, in general, take 2 Moves per turn. It costs and action to pick up/put down, of course, but if a monster has it at the start of its activation, it can move twice no problem.

Awesome, thank you for your reply.

Seems like we did play it as intended then. Seemed a bit strong to have a speed 5 monster in that encounter, with Dash it's pretty much game if she manages to get her hands on the Totem. I'll try and ask FFG for the location where the totem can be picked up and report the answer later on.

All and all it was a fun learning experience for a first game.

Thanks again!

In the case of this map (E1), the quest rules state that a monster may pick it up from an adjacent space, as an action. So you cannot pick it up from the same space, you must be adjacent.

I don't believe this is the case.

It's common sense that if you have to be adjecent to pick up a token, you can also be on top of it.

There is absolutely no reason why this should not be possible.

I don't believe this is the case.

It's common sense that if you have to be adjecent to pick up a token, you can also be on top of it.

There is absolutely no reason why this should not be possible.

There is one reason why it should not be possible: there is no rule that says it IS possible. As I said above, there are no general rules for what you can or can't do with objective tokens - the quest rules are all you have to work with.

If we allow the argument that something is allowed unless the rules explicitly disallow it, then there are a great many stupid things I can do during the game simply because "the rules don't forbid it." I can probably even come up with "thematic" excuses for a lot of these things.

- During the Overlord's turn, I could flick a monster figure adjacent to my hero off the map. There's no rule that says I can't flick a monster off the map. Thematically, my hero shoved him while he wasn't looking.

- If I'm losing the game, I could flip the board and declare victory. There's no rule that says I can't flip the board. Thematically, an earthquake ruined the heroes' efforts. Overlord wins!

And so on.

My point is this: The rules of the game describe what IS allowed. Anything that is not explicitly stated as being allowed is therefore NOT allowed. This is the only way to prevent endless stupid suggestions such as the above.

"Common sense" is a dangerous line of thought in this game, mostly because it isn't always as "common" as one might think. What makes sense to one person may not make sense to the next. For example, thematically, I could understand why you can't pick up a big heavy idol while standing in the same "space" as it. It's not a little key that you can stand over while you bend down and pick it up, it's a huge, heavy idol that slows down the person carrying it. You have to get up beside something like that and heft it.

FFG has, on many occasions when asked, favoured the literal rules over "thematic" interpretations. You can always ask them directly if you want an official answer to this situation.

You can always ask FFG directly if you want an official answer.

And they will say that while standing on top of a token you can still pick it up or activate it.

It is absolutely in no way game-breaking or game-changing... unlike the examples that you give.

You can always ask FFG directly if you want an official answer.

And they will say that while standing on top of a token you can still pick it up or activate it.

It is absolutely in no way game-breaking or game-changing... unlike the examples that you give.

You seem to be remarkably confident of that answer, despite having not actually asked FFG. It's very easy to claim that a rule is "intended" to work in a particular way, but the only person who really knows how a rule was intended to work it the person who wrote it. You are not that person. No matter how "reasonable" or "not game breaking" your suggestion may be, it is at the end of the day, just a house rule. There's no RAW support for your interpretation.

Take a look at the collected "Unofficial FAQ" answers on the BGG page for this game - every single one of those answers came directly from one of the FFG employees in charge of this game. They're only considered "unofficial" because they aren't included in the real FAQ document.

See how many of those answers line up with what you would so confidently expect, and then come back to revisit this question.

You can play by whatever house rules you like, but when discussing rule questions in online forums such as this, people are usually more interested in knowing the "real" answer. That answer must be based in RAW, or on an official answer from FFG directly, otherwise it's just so much personal opinion.

You can always ask FFG directly if you want an official answer.

And they will say that while standing on top of a token you can still pick it up or activate it.

It is absolutely in no way game-breaking or game-changing... unlike the examples that you give.

You seem to be remarkably confident of that answer, despite having not actually asked FFG. It's very easy to claim that a rule is "intended" to work in a particular way, but the only person who really knows how a rule was intended to work it the person who wrote it. You are not that person. No matter how "reasonable" or "not game breaking" your suggestion may be, it is at the end of the day, just a house rule. There's no RAW support for your interpretation.

Take a look at the collected "Unofficial FAQ" answers on the BGG page for this game - every single one of those answers came directly from one of the FFG employees in charge of this game. They're only considered "unofficial" because they aren't included in the real FAQ document.

See how many of those answers line up with what you would so confidently expect, and then come back to revisit this question.

You can play by whatever house rules you like, but when discussing rule questions in online forums such as this, people are usually more interested in knowing the "real" answer. That answer must be based in RAW, or on an official answer from FFG directly, otherwise it's just so much personal opinion.

In a way, I treat them like search tokens, which can also be activated while on top of them.

With something as simple as a token FFG probably didn't think they'd have to be so extremely explicit and for each token state "...adjacent, or on top of.".

Because it is so simple, so redundant and there is absolutely no reason why it should not be possible unless noted otherwise, such as the token being an obstacle.

Be my guest and ask FFG this question, I'm not really a person to ask questions for which the answer is so ridiculously obvious

I do not treat this as a houserule either (I don't play with houserules) as it has never been doubted that having to be "adjacent to" also includes the target tile when it comes to tokens, unless otherwise noted.

I do not treat this as a houserule either (I don't play with houserules) as it has never been doubted that having to be "adjacent to" also includes the target tile when it comes to tokens, unless otherwise noted.

Then you have not seen FFG's responses about familiar abilities that state 'adjacent'. They have clarified that they DO NOT work while in the same space. They have actually been VERY explicit in almost every case that "adjacent" does not mean "in the same space as", and when an ability is meant to be used in either case, that both cases are listed. The other terminology used would be "within 1 space" which would also imply in the same space as.

Perhaps you should learn to trust people who have been around these forums and seen discussion of the game from FFG for a while before throwing about assumptions as fact.

If they rule that for this specific case, it will be as an errata that the quest should also say "or in the same space as", not as a clarification that "adjacent" means "adjacent or in the same space as".

You can always ask FFG directly if you want an official answer.

And they will say that while standing on top of a token you can still pick it up or activate it.

It is absolutely in no way game-breaking or game-changing... unlike the examples that you give.

Try to be open to dialogue and don't slam your fist on the bar's counter believing that it helps you win the debate. It just makes you come out as bloody rude and preposterous.

Hey just bringing an update for my initial question. Got an official response from FFG.

Q: Hello, I have a question regarding the Twin Idols map. In encounter 1 it is stated monsters can pick up the Idol objective marker from an adjacent space. But in encounter 2 of the same map, it isn't stated where the Totems can be picked up from. Do heroes and monsters have to pick up the objective markers for the totems on the space the marker is in, or can they also pick it from adjacent spaces?

A: In keeping with the nature of Encounter 1, it should be picked up from adjacent spaces.

So it seems it can be picked up ONLY from adjacent spaces just like in encounter 1.

You can always ask FFG directly if you want an official answer.

And they will say that while standing on top of a token you can still pick it up or activate it.

It is absolutely in no way game-breaking or game-changing... unlike the examples that you give.

Please stop speaking in absolutes. You are not God and your opinion is far from being consistent with the word of the rules.

Try to be open to dialogue and don't slam your fist on the bar's counter believing that it helps you win the debate. It just makes you come out as bloody rude and preposterous.

I will stop speaking in absolutes when the person i'm in discussion with will stop using absurd examples.

Everyone knows that flipping the board over or throwing figures off the map is in no way a proper way to play this game.

By using arguments like that it shows a grave disrespect for the person you're in discussion with. (And yes, also bloody rude and preposterous)

My opinion is 100% consistent when it comes to how tokens are being treated in this game.

Please note that i say tokens, not familiars, not doors, not obstacles, not figures, not abilities, not etc... no i say tokens.

Again i see no gamebreaking or gamechanging reason why it should not be possible.

But okay, i'll give it to you that FFG has often ruled differently and that these rules, when taken 100% literal, can be seen as "adjacent only". But when looking at the use of tokens throughout the game, it's consistent to say they can also be activated when on top of them.

My apologies if i came across as rude, but somehow when the person i'm in discussion with starts discussing in extremes and treating me like an idiot, it rubs me the wrong way. Discussing in extremes and absurdes is simply not a nice way to have a discussion, i hope you can agree with that.

Hey just bringing an update for my initial question. Got an official response from FFG.

Q: Hello, I have a question regarding the Twin Idols map. In encounter 1 it is stated monsters can pick up the Idol objective marker from an adjacent space. But in encounter 2 of the same map, it isn't stated where the Totems can be picked up from. Do heroes and monsters have to pick up the objective markers for the totems on the space the marker is in, or can they also pick it from adjacent spaces?

A: In keeping with the nature of Encounter 1, it should be picked up from adjacent spaces.

So it seems it can be picked up ONLY from adjacent spaces just like in encounter 1.

Lets first see what it says exactly:

Encounter 1:

"As an action, a monster may pick up the Idol of Skulls from an adjacent space"

Encounter2:

"As an action, a figure may pick up and carry an unclaimed totem."

When in line with the answers i've seen in this thread, then i'd say encounter 2 does not allow picking up from adjacent spaces. Encounter 1 allows pickups ONLY from adjacent space (although i do not entirely agree with that seeing how tokens are normally treated throughout the game)

I will stop speaking in absolutes when the person i'm in discussion with will stop using absurd examples.

This doesn't help your case for not looking rude and preposterous. It merely comes off as "They're bad too!", which just adds childish to the list.

That said, Steve-O prefaced his statements with how assuming you can do something just because the rules say you can't is a slippery slope. He could've used less extreme examples, but that makes his point no less true. Assuming you CAN do something simply because the rules DON'T say you CAN'T is an error in interpreting the rules.

My opinion is 100% consistent when it comes to how tokens are being treated in this game.

Please note that i say tokens, not familiars, not doors, not obstacles, not figures, not abilities, not etc... no i say tokens.

You're being extremely selective with your rules interpretations then. Firstly, familiar, obstacles, etc., are often still tokens. They may not be "objective tokens", but they are still tokens and defined in the game as such. Even if you did mean to say "objective tokens", simply because in other cases, FFG specifically referenced "adjacent to or in the same space as", does not imply that "adjacent to" suddenly also means "in the same space as" and should actually imply that because the wording is different, then it is in fact, meant to be treated differently.

When in line with the answers i've seen in this thread, then i'd say encounter 2 does not allow picking up from adjacent spaces. Encounter 1 allows pickups ONLY from adjacent space (although i do not entirely agree with that seeing how tokens are normally treated throughout the game)

Did you even read the text you quoted? Justin clarified that Encounter 2 (which doesn't say where a token can be picked up, which according to RaW would mean that you couldn't if you didn't reference Encounter 1 first) should be treated the same as Encounter 1, which only says "adjacent". I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea.

I will stop speaking in absolutes when the person i'm in discussion with will stop using absurd examples.

This doesn't help your case for not looking rude and preposterous. It merely comes off as "They're bad too!", which just adds childish to the list.

That said, Steve-O prefaced his statements with how assuming you can do something just because the rules say you can't is a slippery slope. He could've used less extreme examples, but that makes his point no less true. Assuming you CAN do something simply because the rules DON'T say you CAN'T is an error in interpreting the rules.

My opinion is 100% consistent when it comes to how tokens are being treated in this game.

Please note that i say tokens, not familiars, not doors, not obstacles, not figures, not abilities, not etc... no i say tokens.

You're being extremely selective with your rules interpretations then. Firstly, familiar, obstacles, etc., are often still tokens. They may not be "objective tokens", but they are still tokens and defined in the game as such. Even if you did mean to say "objective tokens", simply because in other cases, FFG specifically referenced "adjacent to or in the same space as", does not imply that "adjacent to" suddenly also means "in the same space as" and should actually imply that because the wording is different, then it is in fact, meant to be treated differently.

There where I have already apologized you continue to by calling me childish and being rude. Please stop that, it's not nice.

I indeed meant Objective tokens, as you might have concluded yourself.

But to end this silly unfriendly debate once and for all:

Rules of Play, Page 15

Carrying Objective Tokens

"Figures may pick up these objective tokens by performing a special action while adjacent to or in the same space as the objective token."

The quest special rules do not come in conflict with this rule from the rulebook. So yeah, you can pick it up while adjacent OR on the same spot.

They would only conflict when the quest special rules would say "only adjacent", which they don't.

When in line with the answers i've seen in this thread, then i'd say encounter 2 does not allow picking up from adjacent spaces. Encounter 1 allows pickups ONLY from adjacent space (although i do not entirely agree with that seeing how tokens are normally treated throughout the game)

Did you even read the text you quoted? Justin clarified that Encounter 2 (which doesn't say where a token can be picked up, which according to RaW would mean that you couldn't if you didn't reference Encounter 1 first) should be treated the same as Encounter 1, which only says "adjacent". I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea.

Could you please link to this clarification?

About 7 posts up... well 8 if you count mine

Hey just bringing an update for my initial question. Got an official response from FFG.

Q: Hello, I have a question regarding the Twin Idols map. In encounter 1 it is stated monsters can pick up the Idol objective marker from an adjacent space. But in encounter 2 of the same map, it isn't stated where the Totems can be picked up from. Do heroes and monsters have to pick up the objective markers for the totems on the space the marker is in, or can they also pick it from adjacent spaces?

A: In keeping with the nature of Encounter 1, it should be picked up from adjacent spaces.

So it seems it can be picked up ONLY from adjacent spaces just like in encounter 1.

About 7 posts up... well 8 if you count mine

Hey just bringing an update for my initial question. Got an official response from FFG.

Q: Hello, I have a question regarding the Twin Idols map. In encounter 1 it is stated monsters can pick up the Idol objective marker from an adjacent space. But in encounter 2 of the same map, it isn't stated where the Totems can be picked up from. Do heroes and monsters have to pick up the objective markers for the totems on the space the marker is in, or can they also pick it from adjacent spaces?

A: In keeping with the nature of Encounter 1, it should be picked up from adjacent spaces.

So it seems it can be picked up ONLY from adjacent spaces just like in encounter 1.

Argh, my mistake.

That's what you get for trying to respond on a forum while at work