I have been running a campaign for quite a while now with 8 PC's. Following a recent death I have worked out the average exp for the group to allow a new character to be built. The average is 3800 exp.

Amongst the group the only equipment of note above what they started with is one chainsword, one bodyglove and a mono edged sword. Some people are still using the armoured overcoats they were given in Edge of Darkness.

The new character will be a noble so he will be starting with a fair ammount of cash (i am giving him half the cash he would have had if he had been alive since that start of the campaign) and will be buying some gear that will look fairly impressive next to the rest of the group eg. serpentine power blade.

It made me think, at their current level, should I be throwing them some more interesting gear. What do you think?

Ant

If the players are doing good with what they've got then you're doing it right

Although, if the players are expressing an intrest in new equipment, or even if you hear one murmer "****, if I'd had one more Armour point there..." then maybe you need to find a way of themg etting that extra AP they want, or that piece of kit the deals that extra 2 damage. However, if they have the funds and say, one wants some mesh armour, they'll still have to find someone willing to sell it, that can be an adventure in itself.

So really, if the players want something, they can have it, but not without working for i t ^.^

Without knowing details, yes I would say you are a very stingy GM. Also how in the nine hells did they reach 3800 xp and not pickup better stuff from the heretics and scumbags they kill in their line of work?

I guess it would also depend on the locations your adepts are operating in. Are they on feral/feudal low tech worlds? Outposts or colonies? This would all limit availability. A source of income (the noble ?) and a side trip to a population center for resupply could help if you think its needed.

Then there"s the salvaged gear from fallen enemies. In my years of roleplaying it seems theres always a situation or skill usable to gain wealth and equipment. And dont forget "By the Authority of the Immortal Emporor of Mankind..... give me that!) if you find yourself supported by your Inquisitor. Your group of 8 players will let you know in any case. At least thats my thought on the matter,

Based on what you've said so far, yes you are. Now if they've spent most of that time on a feudal world, unable to pick up better gear but being better equiped than most of their enemies, that's fine.

Don't worry I am one too, when i ran my team through edge of darkness i charged the guard flak armor the npcs had to flak vests, The only person who has a mono-weapon is the mortrait assassin and the "medic" with a mono scapel

I think this isn't D&D. I think looting the bodies and buying newer, neater gear isn't what the game is about. If the gear they have is the gear they need to do that job, they don't need better gear. If they want better gear, then they need to say that. If they need better, or different, gear to complete the adventure than you need to make it available to them. Otherwise, I don't see a problem.

I see the problem in that it doesn't make sense to me unless they are fighting enemies that are really poorly equiped. It really depends on the setting, if it takes place somewhere that new high tech equipment is impossible to find, then sure. However if it's the generic Calixis sector adventures he's using, then something wierd is definatelly going on.

Also, while DH is not D&D, DH is not CoC either, and should generally not be treated as such. That said, if your group is genuingly enjoying it, who is anyone to judge.

At least your PC's arn't Looting their own Fallen Comrades (now SOP in my games it seams), Edge of Darkness was like Christmass for my PC's, they are now Fat with Cash, but missed their Rolls when it came to buy Fancy Gear (And after rolling so well on finding Prices for their Loot).

Brighteyes said:

I must say, I'm baffled by this. Why should a bunch of mangy heretics be better equipped than agents of the Holy Inquisition?

LuciusT said:

An Imperial Guard regiment comes back from fighting in Tranch. While there they were ambushed, surrounded, and cut off (think Battle of the Bulge). While there, part of the Guard Regiment makes a deal with Khorne... get them out of this mess and they'll continue to worship him.

So Khorne answers, and they survive, and now they're an Imperial Guard regiment, with access to all the gear an Imperial Guard regiment has access too, and they secretly worship Khorne. The Inquisition gets wind of this, and sends in some alcolytes to investigate.

And that's just one example. Why would a tech-heretic have access to bleeding edge technology? Why maybe because the tech-heretic can build the things? Or why would the planetary govener who secretly worships Slaneesh have access to rare techs? Because he can afford to pay for it. Same with the merchant prince who deals with Xenos.

Sure if you get caught in the trap that only the poor blue collar working class become heretics, then you're right. But not all heretics are mangy, nor are they all poorly funded, nor are they all without temporal powers. If you have access to DotDG, look who is in charge of the one heresy of the church they discribe, and then tell me that he wouldn't have access to some phenominal stuff.

Death cult assassins, nobles, Guard and PDF regiments, merchant princes, rogue traders, Xenos, Chaos Heretics being funded by Chaos Space Marines to distabilize a world. Sure mangy heretics would have access to boards with nails. But not all Heretics are mangy. And heck not all people that work for heretics are even heretics. A wealthy noble heretic would have quite a well equipped secruity force, which while they are not heretics, you need to get through them to get to the noble.

And why wouldn't a very wealth noble not outfit his security forces with at least heavy bolters and a few bolt rifles? Why wouldn't the head of a Imperial Cult not have access to sanctified armor. He may not be dealing with Chaos, but his beliefs may be just as heretical.

Edit: And no they may not be better equipped then SOME agents of the Inquisition.... but since you're characters (especially at 3800 exp) are still very much expendable agents of the Inquisition, why would the Inquisitor funnel tons of funds into outfitting a group of people who most likely won't survive another mission. Also, having the players figure out how to outfit themselves (within reason) will show the inquisitor who is self-suffienent and creative. So while the Inquisitor and the Inquisition and his most closest agents will be well equipped, his expendable toss away agents probably are not so unless they do loot the bodies of the fallen

Nope, sounds just right to me. One of the things I cant stand about the DH advancement system is it is also equipment based (not just a broken creation/advancemet system in my opinion). You can only fight bigger and badder foes if you get bigger and badder equipment. And that doenst reflect the 40K novels very well at all.

Eisenhorn often went out with an autopistol. Commissar Cain uses a Laspistol and Chainsword. Commissar Guant has a Bolt Pistol and a Power Sword and so forth. They dont do four adventures then updrade in armour and weapons. They dont come back after a "mission" and go, alright I now have training in melta weapons.

They are good and comfortable with the equipment they use, and therefore are capable and competent to fight the forces of chaos and xenos and the heretic with what they carry.

Adding simple rules to the system like weapon specializations and making WS/BS/S/T increasements more appealing is what I like to do.

My campaign last summer was very much that way, where they didnt get great gear and equipment after every adventure. The Inquisitor would let htem make requests, they could go to stores and buy stuff and they would get gear to help accomplish the mission they were on, which isnt "stand in a line and slug it out with some blood letters, here wear power armour and carry power fists". Nope, its, investigate this, investigate that, interrogate him, interrogate her, and so forth.

Now when they are sent it cleanse a heretics nest I give them hell-pistols and hell-guns if they wish with carapace armour on loan, but the players know if they refuse these items "Id rather keep betty, my las pistol sir" then they know I will give them XP bonuses. If they are sent to assassinate someone, then yeah, they get gear for that kind of mission.

But when they try to get bulky armour and huge weapons to lay low in a seedy bar to find out who a cultist is, well thats a no.

But I agree with the above, if all are having fun and enjoying the game, then you are doing it right.

And if any of my players looted heretical weapons and armour or Xenos gear, well, thats a burning offence.

LuciusT said:

Xathess Wolfe best replied to this. I don't throw gear around in my own campaign, but my own group at around 2500K xp has a lot of gear and gadgets, they are still better equipped then most of the heretics they fight, but every now and then someone they encounter might have a piece of gear they prefer. For me it makes sense, they've been around the sector, visited five different planets so far and have done two jobs in Hive Sibellus, it makes no sense for me if they where using the same exact gear they started with a couple of years ago.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Autopistols are great weapons and are likely to be used into the higher ranks, for example the scum I'm playing in a campaign will never upgrade from the sidearm he started with. Laspistols might be a problem, they are generaly inferior weapons, both lorewise and statwise, however Cain is a Commissar so his weapons I assume are standard issue. Chainsword now is a great weapon, the only problem it has is against power fields, but other then that you might keep one of those your entire career. The Bolt Pistol and Power Sword combo you mention is quite extreme, if an acolyte has that, I doubt they are ever exchanging it for anything.

I think your argument suffers greatly from lack of system understanding, just because a weapon is more expensive and higher in the ranks doesn't mean it's allways better, meltas do massive damage but their range is horrible, Plasma weapons are unreliable as hell, Bolt weapons cost a small fortune to keep firing. So I've seen players prefer to keep using their trusty auto weapons and even Las weapons. If your players keep switching their gear all the time, it's probably because they don't get what they can do with their original gear. Not to mention that a good Auto weapon is less likely to cause attention then a fancy bolt, in my campaign at least the group needs to keep a low profile very often.

PS: I hate the software this board uses :S

I assure you, I have no lack of understanding of the system.

Its a simple fact that as posted earlier, Dark Hereys is not D&D, the goal should not be getting gold and magic items, in this case that means bigger armour and bigger weapons.

And the advance scheme encourages this, with bolt training and plasma training at higher ranks, players assume (not all but some) that that means they can now have heavy bolters and plasma guns.

In essence, to me it becomes a level of your characters are nothing but the carriers of your equipment, and in the end, your character is your equipment.

I prefer role play over roll play, and a emphasis on being rewarded with better equipment and skills to use that equipment creates roll play situations.

Thats just from what Ive seen in the last year of playing Dark Heresy, and I fear Rogue Trader will only make that worse.

You are again missing my point, possibly because I'm not making it right.

Your starting gear is basically scraps, it's not decent, it's in some cases awful, the characters you mentioned in the novelisations have good gear. Laspistols are not meant to be good weapons, they are meant to be easy to mass produce and maintain weapons for example. Of course a character that lives and dies by how he fights might be inclined to get something better when he can.

Some point in your characters career you manage to have good gear, it doesn't have to be huge bulky armor or top notch melta weapons, might be a good quality autoweapons and some easily concealable mesh armor, at that point you are basically where most characters in novelisations are. They have gear they like and isn't scraps. If your characters inisist on constantly upgrading what they have, then something is wrong, if they have a clear understanding of the system they should not be doing that, the high powered costly weapons have disadvantages attached to them.

What I fully agree with you is that the way weapon profficiency is handled is just wrong. Maybe if you had generic type proficiencies like Melee, Pistol, Basic and Heavy, then you could choose to specialize, that would be better for the system. I fully blame Black Industries for this and not FFG.

Oh I dont blame FFG at all.

And I do understand your point, it is the same as mine, more or less. I dont really have it as a super problem in my games, just a player here or there who has video game upgrade mentality.

Personally, I think a high quality laspistol with crack shot (the one that gives you +2 ranged damage) is quite effective.

In a revised variation of the rules, I would like to see such talents (FEATS) as Crack Shot be category specific, not just all ranged weapons.

I think both PB and Brighteyes bring up valid points.

40k novels generally don't have players looting NPCs... and if they do its for some kind of knowledge instead of weapons. Of course in the novels and such the people being described have access to whatever they want whenever they want. Eisenhorn while he generally uses an autopistol and laspistol, has been known to upgrade to a bolt pistol when the situation warrented.

Cain does start with a bolt pistol and a powersword, but really his weapons are already top of the line, why swap them out. I guarentee that when Cain was recruit Cain they didn't give him a bolt pistol and a powersword. Of course Cain could simply requisition whatever he wanted, and Eisenhorn could simply take from stores whatever he wanted, something the alcolytes lack the power to do.

Plus, like PB said, it being a level based advancement, its impossibly to start with weapon training outside the norm. If a guardsman could start out with powerarmor, I don't think he'd actually change his equipment, or very rarely does.

So we've got a interesting problem here. Like PB said you have equipment advancement as well as skill advancement, which is a problem, but since that's the way the advancement works, in order to get to your "favorite weapon" you need to advance and gain access to those weapons. If you simply just want a powersword, there's a good chance you'll advance to a chainsword, before moving to the powersword, which simply continues to feed the equipment advancement issue.

I honestly don't know how to fix it, under the purview of the game. You start out relatively weak and the game is about how well you progress in the inquisition (or die / corrupt/ insane trying), but it that style of game leads to equipment creep.

The other issue is that GW did this originally to prevent the power gamers from coming in at tier 1, with no rp explanation, and having their characters start with heavy bolters, powerswords, and powerarmor.

Like PB said, roll play should not replace roleplay. If a character can come up with a valid reason why they should start with a bolt pistol, a set of powerarmor, or a powersword, then they should be allowed to start with it. However, since you're starting out at such a low level, that valid reason should be quite difficult to come up with.

Well,

Every GM needs to deceide for himself (herself) howmuch he gives his players:

Mine are equiped as followed (1500-1700xp)

Moritat Assassin
Armoured Bodyglove (2 AP)
Mono Sword (Best quality) (Only melee character)
Mono Punch Dagger
5 Throwing Knives

Guardsman
Guard Flak
Lasgun (red-dot)
Laspistol
Autogun (scope, fire selector)

Psyker
Fury Laspistol (his 2nd one, 1st one was fried due to Perils of the Warp, 5 minutes after he bought it)
Psykana Mercy Blade (2nd one, same sorry, was given 20 lashes by his Prime, the Adept PC)
Flak Jacket

Adept
Fatebringer (Red-Dot) given for being appointed Prime
Mesh Vest (not his, requisition)

Techpriest
Staff
Steelburner las pistol
Flak Jacket


They have some cash, the Psyker is broke, the Assassin is saving up, but generally they are doing allright.

Am I giving too much?

No I think you're pretty much right on. My cleric is tier 5, and while I admit he's running around with a Sacristan Bolt Pistol and a Sanctified Lathe Sword, its mostly because of a back story that he has them. Funny thing is, while my cleric owns them, he rarely if ever uses them, generally using the Ortho-hax Autopistol and either a shotgun or a short lasgun. Bolt ammunition is just way too darn expensive to use it all the time.

So no I don't think you're giving them too much. Most of it seems pretty standard items from character creation, with some non-rare upgrades and very few rares (that I personally don't understand why they are rare... like the armored bodyglove.)

You know, I am well aware that I am not the best at expressing myself when I dont have the time to do so, and with a 30 minute limit on my computer access downrange, often times I dont get the time to ponder.

So I wll try my best this time.

I read a lot of 40K novels, I usually enjoy them. In these books and novels I see a RPG style of character progression that is best reflected as skill growth. Characters learn information and skills that allow them to perform better as the story goes on. They gain insights and knowledge that lets them beat monsters, xenos and daemons easier and with more frequency.

Few of the characters "upgrade" in weapons and equipment.

To me, the rank and career method of skill progression does not work. It reflects D&D mechanics way too much. I gain this much XP now I can do this has become I have this much XP now I can buy this. And this leads to the argument "If my character is now allowed the skill he should now be allowed to use it, so I should have a plasma gun!" This isnt always going to happen, and good players wont do that. But we all know bad players and players that tend to get caught up in weapon upgrade mode.

And I understand that elite advances exist to cover skills and talents not normally available. But they always feel like a cheat to me. A easy way out for a system that doesnt seem to work properly from the start.

Take guardsmen for example. Sure each starting guardsman gets 400XP to personalize his character, but is that really going to do it? All their talents and feat and skills are more or less combat oriented at rank 1. Very few starting guardsmen are going to pass on S, T, WS or BS increasements and might buy all 4, or at least 2 of them on most occassions with an addition of sound constitution. In short, it forces the PCs into a "fight class mentality". Names added to ranks only add to this, in my opinion.

The aforementioned sword-chainsword-powersword tree of advancement is also there, and with the talents going on in that direction, players may at times assume they are also entitled to weapon upgrades on the same level.

Now a career system like in WFRP isnt going to solve that 100%, but it would allow you to path your way to where you want to go easier and would still enact some of the weapon upgrade modes mentioned earlier.

Allowing some form of specialization would reduce the out of game aspect of weapon upgrade to make my character better, to a more in game aspect of "well sure, a standard bolt pistol is better then my hell pistol, but I get +10% with my Hell Pistol and with my specialization talent with hell pistol I get +2 damage" so a character would have a in game reason to stick with a certain weapon (Im better with it) and a meta-game aspect (Ive already spent 300XP extra to be really good with the weapons I have).

I think we all know that Commissar Cain could probably use a Bolt Pistol quite well, but with the Laspistol he is already a master and a superb shot, allowing him certain mechanical advantages with the laspistol over the bolt pistol.

The curve for Arbitrators and Guardsmen and Assassins and even Scum would be to keep weapons the receive training on at a early rank, as by the time a new weapon talent is available, they would have already spent several hundred XP getting more proficient with the weapon they start with.

However, a more open character generation system would work best overall. Something akin to BRP or Mongoose Rune Quest.

Peacekeeper_b said:

What about WoD? I ask because I've worked up most of a ruleset conversion and it sounds like it may address a number of the issues presented here.

And before anyone hates on the idea, let me say that I don't think there's anything "bad" or "broken" with DH, but the system doesn't quite do what I want it to. I'd love to play a game of Dark Heresy RAW but I don't have a group to do so with. I started this little project as an experiment and it grew into something bigger. I'd be interested in getting some feedback on it, but I'm not comfortable posting it around the internets as it draws so heavily on copyrighted material.

White wolfs Storyteller system is for me one of the best RP systems out there if not the best, for what it does. If you want crunchy combat there are better things out there, however if you want RP and great character progression it's just brilliant. I don't use it often because I don't like WoD, but whenever I want to run something that hasn't got anything to do with a ready made RPG I use that.

Most Icon Characters of Warhammer have trademark equipment, Gaunts Lasersword, Yarriks Powerfist , Harks Plasmagun, Eisenhorns Powersword, Forcesword and Boltpistol.

The 1st Tantiths camouflage Coats and silver knife, the catachians knifes and so on

Most of them are better in stats,

but if i want to play a heavy weapons specialist, then the weapon of choice is neither stub pistol nor las gun, it is the bigger things.

I´m not impressed DG handles character build and development more less.

If i use Space Gothic for example.

The military has their MOS.

the normal Infantry, the parachuters, the scouts etc

The specialist, tPlasma gunners, the combat engineers, and so on all with specialiced skills and gear.

Plasma gunners are the only with the training t use Plasma weapons, and could get them at

character creation or later.

Therefore i see nothing wrong with it, that people want cool gear, cool gear is a part of 40k since it starts

True 40K is about cool gear, but you shouldnt be defined by your gear.

As for a system change, negative. I think the system works fine, its just the character generation aspect that needs revised.

Ive tried other systems for 40K rpgs, from D6 to MEGs to even looking at the D20 and Alternity internet rule books.

Take a look at Mongoose's RuneQuest (or even BRP for even more free form skills) and take that as a new basis for CharGen.

Basically its very similar, with characters recieving cultural and profession skills (Origin and Career), as well as a selection of "free" skills to choose based on the combination of culture and profession (for example, a Noble Culture would get Sword, Leadership, Ettiqute and two skills of choice, while a Warrior Profession would get Ride, Three weapons of choice, and so forth) and then you get generic skill points to round out your character.

Now just using that as a basis, and assigning point values to skills, talents and what not, you can build a character as close to the way you want him to be. So if you envision playing a young officer who is a swindler and a rogue, you can build that without just playing a guardsman and sacrificing two thirds of your character concept.

I may have to look into this more when I get home.

Helps that both Mongoose RQ, BRP and DH use percentile systems and have roughly the same HP/Wound ratios (8-13 being average).

Over the course of my game my players have both upgraded their gear and/or looted from the enemy. However in almost every instance this hasn't been about upgrading to match a gear/level power curve, but has instead been RP based.

For example: Our group's arbitrator ended up in a situation where he was locked in a cell beneath a hive world estate with only a bathrobe and a knife hidden in concealed cavity in his chest. When he fought his way out, he took a hellgun off the first of the guards (a navigator's elite bodyguard/household troops, thus armed w/ hellguns and good quality void sealed IG flak) the he killed and then proceeded to do battle against crazy odds. He got super-lucky, spent a lot of fate points and made it out alive. Since it saw him through such tribulation, he named his stolen hellgun and it has become his best friend. He hasn't gone for any other weapons since.

Both our arbitrator and our guardsman are running around wearing mesh-backed leather Adeptus Arbites uniforms that they got from Arbites armories. They got these (and use them) when their mission role required them to function as a mid-level/senior arbitrator and his deputy. When on another mission they had to go undercover as primitives, they left all their high-tech stuff behind and wore boiled leather armor and burlap robes.

In another situation, they were trapped by a much superior in numbers force of mercenaries, ran out of ammo and picked up various guns to use in the on going fight. This was mostly a desperation, run and gun, grab whatever's handy and shoot it empty then snag the next nearest weapon situation, not any kind of dedicated looting. Mostly they just sprayed suppressing fire from captured autoguns behind them and then ran away.

The noble in the crew is the only one who has "bought up" his gear, but he's a noble with fistfulls of cash who has also been making even more money by using the =][= missions to make business aquisitions. (for example: team purges a noble heretic who ran a large portion of shipping on Baraspine. Noble worked out a deal w/ an adminstratum agent for his own noble house to take over the running of the businesses that had belonged to the heretic at a 30-70 split [30 to noble house, 70 to adminstratum accounts] after the various business entites had been audited and vetted/purged of heretics. As such he made a big increase to his house's assets with a likewise bump up in his allowance/stipend from the grateful head of the family)

As such he often (but not always depending on chances to access such wealth) has money to burn. Then again, the only time he's just out and out upgrades is after one extended mission where he couldn't seem to roll above a 3 on his damage dice the whole time. As a result of shooting lightly armored people in the head repeatedly and watching them shrug it off, he decided (as an RP decision of the character) that his guns were inferior products (despite their reputation) and got rid of them and invested in bigger guns.

Then again, this resulted in a situation that come up in our most recent session where it would have very much helped complete the mission if he could have shot one the arbitrator w/ some assurance that he wouldn't kill him. (At the time he needed to convince someone that he and the arbitrator were enemies, and if he had still been packing an autopistol he could have shot the arbitrator somewhere less likely to be lethal and let the arbitrator play dead, which would have made the situation so much easier, but since the noble was packing bolt pistols at the time that option wasn't availible.)

So yes there has been gear creep in my game (of course that is over a period going from starting XP to 6000+) but it generally has been a result of situational necessity and/or story development rather than just buying stuff to meet a percieved power curve.

And speaking of power curve, the most damage done in a single attack by a PC in the whole campaign was done with an oversized wooden mallet (imagine a solid chunk of wood the size of a small barrel on the end of a 5 foot pole, primitve great weapon doinf Impact damage) not some high tech device.